NO KIDS ALLOWED!

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Kinetik V » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:36 am

mo wrote:There was an event, reported in the Black Rock Beacon, this year where one of the law enforcement agencies brought in an underage decoy to get served alcohol.

They busted and fined somebody for pouring a drink for this person.

If BM were an adults-only event, this could not have happened.


Oh wow...so let me get this straight. You want to ban anyone that's not of legal age to drink? That means we get to ban 18 year olds and up...teenagers who serve our country in the military and put their lives on the line to protect the freedoms we exercise at Burning Man! Sorry but that's discriminatory and flat out fucking wrong.

As far as the sting goes, if you're running a bar and are too fucking lazy to check ID's....then you deserve what you get. The Booby Bar has a spiel down cold for checking ID's and having fun with it...or at least they did the last time I was in there.

This event is supposed to be about art and not drugs and alcohol...and artists are ALL AGES. Frankly I don't want to see anyone shut out, I prefer an all-inclusive event. So does the LLC...read the 10 principles and see which one is listed first. After you read that, then come back in here and try to defend your position...let's see what you come up with.
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Civic Responsibilty

Postby RaineFX » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:59 am

"Civic Responsibility
We value civil society. Community members who organize events should assume responsibility for public welfare and endeavor to communicate civic responsibilities to participants. They must also assume responsibility for conducting events in accordance with local, state and federal laws. "

AGAIN NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW!

P.S. Who said and implemented I was a one time burner??? I've been for the past 10 years! And involved in the politics for more then 10 years w/burning man and the surrounding area!
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Postby Isotopia » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:53 pm

If BM were an adults-only event, this could not have happened.


Smacks of a straw man argument. Still, it's probably true. But if the folks who passed the drinks out had bothered to read the innumerable postings and discussions on the subject they also might have avoided a fine.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:14 pm

isotopia, you're under the assumption that the law on the playa is the same as the law in the rest of the united states.


oh wait, that would mean you would still be serving minors.


hmmmmmm.



duh.



why oh why oh lord can't people use plain, common sense....dont do it in the open if it's against the fucking law.....duh duh duh duh duh.
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Postby mo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:19 pm

Kinetic V wrote:Oh wow...so let me get this straight. You want to ban anyone that's not of legal age to drink? That means we get to ban 18 year olds and up...teenagers who serve our country in the military and put their lives on the line to protect the freedoms we exercise at Burning Man! Sorry but that's discriminatory and flat out fucking wrong.


The legal age for drinking in Nevada is 21.

We would probably agree that there are a lot of laws that are insane.
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Postby penguin » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:22 pm

mo wrote:There was an event, reported in the Black Rock Beacon, this year where one of the law enforcement agencies brought in an underage decoy to get served alcohol.

They busted and fined somebody for pouring a drink for this person.

If BM were an adults-only event, this could not have happened.


But then we're going from "No kids" to no "under-21", and even if it was no "under-21", what's to stop the police from using underage decoys still?

---

Believe me, I can understand all of the arguments, I just happen to not agree with most of them 8)

I could agree that UNACCOMPANIED children should not be allowed into the city (as it is now); I could also agree that it is the parent/guardians responsibilty to supervise the children. I might (MIGHT) even be able to be convinced that if people are so concerned about how what they are doing might influence/affect a child that a "red-light" district could be established where anyone under 18 is prohibited... hmmm, no, actually I couldn't be convinced of that. If you want such a place you'd have to just set up a controlled access camp on your own, BMORG designating such wouldn't be right under the 10 principals.

Bottom line, if the event is to be all inclusive, you have to include everyone. If first under 18 was banned because they "can't understand", then next it will be under 21 since they can't drink, then what next over 65, obese, NRA members?
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Postby mo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:04 pm

penguin wrote:But then we're going from "No kids" to no "under-21", and even if it was no "under-21", what's to stop the police from using underage decoys still?


If it were forbidden for anyone under 21 to enter BRC, the police would be breaking the rules to bring an underage decoy into BRC.

The greeters would check the ID's of all entrants, and, therefore anyone at the event would legally able to receive alcohol.

I've been at wedding receptions and such where alcohol was being informally served and I've seen how the kids get into the booze. It happens.

Young people who are inexperienced with alcohol make worse choices than those of us who've been around the block with the stuff.

People who assert that kids at BM are *always* always accompanied by responsible adults, at all times, should watch the wild packs of adolescents ripping out of kidsville on their bikes and going out to play all on their own. That is exactly what I saw this year in my frequent trips past kidsville (I camped down the street from there).

It probably worked out OK, but in a city the size of BRC, where there is so much chaos and so many different states mind and body and so many substances and users of said substances, I would not want to put myself in the shoes of a parent whose child has gone missing. I think I would worry.

I'm not ready to be painted as a person who is proposing that BM become a 21-and-over-only event. I'm not proposing that, and it surely is not my place to propose it, even if I wanted to do so.

I am simply observing that if such a policy were adopted, it would un-complicate a number of issues that seem to be somewhat complicated.

You are free to disagree with me, but please don't disrespect me for my input, and please don't blame me for things you don't like to hear.

btw, I saw some terrific creativity manifest by the residents of kidsville...
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:13 pm

overly-moralistic flightless aquatic bird wrote:Bottom line, if the event is to be all inclusive, you have to include everyone.


unfortunate for you that its never been that way, but fortunate for the rest of us that people are kicked out for various reasons.

and i dont appreciate saying people can no longer do what they have been for so long, even suggesting they do it in some private area for the sake of children.
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Postby penguin » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:50 pm

spectabillis wrote:unfortunate for you that its never been that way, but fortunate for the rest of us that people are kicked out for various reasons.


and if a child was violating the rules I would support them being kicked out as well.

spectabillis wrote:and i dont appreciate saying people can no longer do what they have been for so long, even suggesting they do it in some private area for the sake of children.


I am no way saying anyone should change what they are doing, or where they are doing it for the sake of children. If YOU are uncomfortable doing something in front of a kid, it is not the kid that is the "problem".

I'm sure there are MANY in attendance who wouldn't feel comfortable and would change what and how they do things if their [mother|grandmother|sister|priest|boss|etc.] was standing there watching them.

I think the presence of LEO, the press (and cameras in general), tickets at the gate and all of the thinly veiled commercialism is more at the root of the changes you see occuring (already occured) than is the presence of children.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll allow for that, and I'll also allow that we'll not agree on this point, so I'll stop while the stopping is still good.
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:27 pm

flightless aquatic bird wrote:and if a child was violating the rules I would support them being kicked out as well.


you avoided the point - bman is not an all inclusive environment you expect it to be. you tried to use that as a justification.

I am no way saying anyone should change what they are doing, or where they are doing it for the sake of children.


wrong - you are expecting people to change what they are doing to accomodate an environent for children, you avoid what is enforced.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:11 pm

mo wrote:There was an event, reported in the Black Rock Beacon, this year where one of the law enforcement agencies brought in an underage decoy to get served alcohol.

They busted and fined somebody for pouring a drink for this person.

If BM were an adults-only event, this could not have happened.

18, 19, and 20-year-olds are of age, but can't drink.

And it didn't happen in the Booby Bar, because we take care not to let it.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:12 pm

mo wrote:There was an event...

I would have called it an instance. Event sounds so gala.
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:19 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:And it didn't happen in the Booby Bar, because we take care not to let it.


hey now, thats not completely true
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Postby penguin » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:39 pm

penguin wrote:Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll allow for that, and I'll also allow that we'll not agree on this point, so I'll stop while the stopping is still good.
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Postby goathead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:45 pm

spectabillis wrote:
goathead wrote:Raines

Fuck Off.


is there a special reason for the frequent insults towards users?


Just very special users, lets see under 10 posts, wants us to change but has no clue about us. Yep I think he is deserving.
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Re: Civic Responsibilty

Postby goathead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:48 pm

RaineFX wrote:P.S. Who said and implemented I was a one time burner??? I've been for the past 10 years! And involved in the politics for more then 10 years w/burning man and the surrounding area!


So why haven't you said anything before now?
Your acting like this is all new to you.
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:54 pm

downplaying it now?


you do it a lot
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:07 pm

penguin wrote:Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll allow for that, and I'll also allow that we'll not agree on this point, so I'll stop while the stopping is still good.


m'kay, but i was thinking of inviting people into the discussion who would be very interested to hear that self-rightous parents want to exclude them, just to accomodate some kids. so much for thier public performances, and just about every other aspect of those artists and thier contributions as you make them unwelcome.

Image
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Postby rodiponer » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:38 pm

spectabillis wrote:... to hear that self-rightous parents want to exclude them, just to accomodate some kids.

No one said that.
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Postby goathead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:55 pm

spectabillis wrote:downplaying it now?


you do it a lot


Downplaying it spec?

Please feel free to provide examples.
Or maybe even start a thread.
Maybe some of the insults are amoung friends?
Could be our way of saying HI, How are you.
Could be your just way to serious also.

But then you always have been.
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Postby goathead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:05 pm

spectabillis wrote:m'kay, but i was thinking of inviting people into the discussion who would be very interested to hear that self-rightous parents want to exclude them, just to accomodate some kids. so much for thier public performances, and just about every other aspect of those artists and thier contributions as you make them unwelcome.


So far I have only noticed one person who seems adiment about banning either, kids or others.

So why the bait and switch?
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:37 am

rodiponer wrote:No one said that.


no, instead they ignore that many things would not be welcome in the presence of children, which leads to the exact same result.

and in addition, they allow everyone not effected feel good about it through convenient rationalzations... until, hopefully, they eventually reflect back on thier initial days, and in turn become the ones who cry how much it has changed and what has been lost.

seems these things are an integral part of an inevitiblle downward spiral, until whats left is little more than a generic mainstreamed environment. that will never mean i stop the rage against the dying of the light, because some battles are worth even loosing... and such is a sweet tradgedy of fallen heroes.. while the sheep sleepwalk to the end of their age.
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:31 am

re goathead - sorry, you're right. after mistaking the pissclear exchange i thought you were another user's sock.
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Postby goathead » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:34 am

np

have always enjoyed Ardians work, plus he is fun to snark with.

:D
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re: No Kids Allowed!

Postby Melvynman » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:59 pm

Wetting your bed into adult is rare. The monster under your bed isn’t real. The kids are coming to BM. Ban yourself and the problem might go away.
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Police alcohol busts this year WERE TO MAKE BM 18+

Postby overdrive » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:19 pm

Hopefully this sheds light, not spurs trolls - following up to mo's post:

I am an 11 year Burner.
I am a Black Rock Ranger.
I was cited this year (2009) for providing alcohol to minors. At least 6 bars at 7:30 and B were targeted and cited for this on Tues night. One of them warned us (apparently after we had been targeted), and I spoke to BM LEAL (Rangers' legal team) who said they were just going up & down the street citing every bar.

I don't even drink alcohol (but have given it to people who weren't drunk/impaired and who appeared over 21). I just happened to walk up to the officers when they came into our camp's main tent. Bam! Please come with us, here's an $1100+ fine, thank you very much.

The Seargeant I spoke with (who cited me) said that the county is upset because local teens come into BM, get served alcohol and end up in the med tents with alcohol poisoning. He stated to me they want BM to be 18+ and BMOrg is not cooperating. The implication is that by pressuring the camps, we will pressure BM to "cooperate".

The LEAL guys I spoke to about it said they were also targeting the adult camps on obscenity charges. They also said Pershing County was in charge of Law Enforcement this year which made things very different from other years.

I can see their point on protecting kids, but their methods of trying to solve the problem are unfair, disrespectful, and just plain wrong. I know several parents who brought their kids to BM and think that for them is was nothing but a positive experience - it would be a shame to deny that option to people because LOCAL PERSHING PARENTS aren't doing their jobs very well by keeping an eye on their kids and passing the blame onto our community.

I could envision some sort of wristband scheme for people who want to be gifted alcohol working out - they already have wristbands for very early arrivals for setup/artists/etc. I haven't been involved in any of those higher-level negotiations to say what's really going on there or what will happen.

It seems there are plenty of good solutions to the underlying issue if people could discuss and agree in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. I was very respectful to the officers and felt they were very respectful of me (apart from the basic problem of plucking people out of camps and fining them for seeming political reasons).

I'm hoping to find other folks who were cited and/or who want to help work on the problem together - first to deal with our personal legal issues and then to resolve the larger community rights, safety, and respect issues - please email me if you are or know any of those folks. Thanks all, burn on...
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Postby mo » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:40 pm

Rough luck, Overdrive. I am so sorry that happened. I will be thinking of you and sending you my best thoughts during the certain hassle of the court hearings and such surrounding this episode of random and overt harassment.

I'm curious that the cops indicated to you that they wanted BRC to be an 18-and-over event. It seems like the threshold of 21+ is the real limit for Nevada.

Hopefully, the court will see this for what it is and dismiss the charges and (hopefully) chastise the cops for wasting the court's time.

I'm sorry I can't find the copy of the Black Rock BeAcon that reported the story. I recall the title of the article was something like "Police Tactics Questioned". Iirc, it only reported one citation. Maybe someone from the BeAcon might be able to help.

Here is the website for the paper -
http://www.blackrockbeacon.org/

Fortunately, it seems like there are a fair number of Burners who are lawyers and may be able to assist. More lawyers aren't always better, but one or two good lawyers can be a great help.

If you do wind up getting fined, please send a direct email and ask for assistance with the fine. I could cough up a few dollars to help. We could pass the hat around these parts to see what we can do for you.
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Re: Police alcohol busts this year WERE TO MAKE BM 18+

Postby spectabillis » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:01 pm

overdrive wrote:Hopefully this sheds light, not spurs trolls... It seems there are plenty of good solutions to the underlying issue if people could discuss and agree in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect.


sorry, thats not possible. in my slightly greater number of years these discussions have devolved into insults, innuendo, rumors, and endless debates despite whatever information and experiences are shared and gathered. consensus is just about impossible, and individual actions are ill spent.

i can only suggest you attempt to gather others with similar experiences in private, and take the initiative on your own to find some resolve. updates can be helpful, but i would limit discussions.

but i sincerely appreciate sharing this despite these problems, because there is always hope. but unfortunately its not likely to make any significant difference here.

The LEAL guys I spoke to about it said they were also targeting the adult camps on obscenity charges.


probably the most significant thing and i am very surprised this was shared with you, leal isnt always the most forthcoming with information and sometimes its wrong. in this case, well... you can see from this discussion people are not the most cooperative, and often in denial.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:02 am

Afterburn 2008:
The numbers for alcohol- and drug-related patients continue to be remarkably low for an event of this size. 2007 showed the largest spike in drug-related patients ever in the history of the event (79 total, up 400% from 2006) and but 2008 the average returned to range seen normally in previous years (32 total, down 247% from 2007). The 2008 numbers for drug-related chief complaints is also 21% lower than the running five year average which is currently 39. The statistics for alcohol-related chief complaints continues to be low, with only 14 reported this year, which is 36% lower than 2007 and 33% lower than the running five year average, which for alcohol is 21.


Afterburn 2007:
The numbers for alcohol- and drug-related patients, were remarkably low for an event of this size. 2007 showed the largest spike in drug-related patients ever in the history of the event (79 total, up 400% from 2006) and a decrease in alcohol-related patients (19 total, down 45% from 2006). These numbers do not necessarily represent overdoses, only patients for whom drugs or alcohol were the primary reason for seeking medical care.


Afterburn 2006
The numbers for alcohol and drug related patients continue to be remarkably low for an event of this size that lasts for this long. In 2006 there was a decrease in drug related patients (19 total, down 68% from 2005) and an increase in alcohol related patients (29 total, up 45% from 2005). The current five year average for drug related patients is 29 total per year and 20 total per year for alcohol related patients. It is worth noting that these numbers do not necessarily represent overdoses, only patients who had drugs or alcohol as the primary reason for seeking medical care.


I'm not saying that binge drinking by local teens doesn't happen, it's hard to understand what the alcohol poisoning rate is and how many of those are locals. And it doesn't matter how many there are, when one is your child, but I think 14, 19, 29. And I'm sure that most of those drinking binges are not locals.
Again, I don't tend bar at the Booby Bar, but it is my understanding that we have had the cops in, and have been told that we had not given drinks to decoys. My personal feeling is that the problem isn't having children on playa under the supervision of their parents and that banning children because of this issue is like driving a tack with a sledge hammer.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:53 am

Our Utah burn, held on private property, is 18+. Kids would be welcome, but Utah's child protection laws are insanely restrictive. I mean, there are complaints about Victoria Secret mannequins! Th eUtah burn was a family event until we grew too large and became a blip on the official radar. Once that happened, the insurance and permits became a fact of burn life, and the kids were out. Kid friendly burner events in SLC have yet to meet with good response, but I know that's being worked on.

With 400~600 participants, we use a wristband system for alcohol, one for under 21, one for over. You wear the band all four days or you leave. Since we know each other on sight for the most part, losing a band and getting a reissue isn't much of a problem. I can imagine the headaches a wristband system could cause at Burning Man. "Dude, it clashes with my tutu!"

We could brand our birthdates on our asses, hmmm?
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