NO KIDS ALLOWED!

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Generic Anonymity » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:56 pm

I saw one great kid at Deth Camp, singing/yelling on stage for the group that had gathered. Can you imagine how awesome that must have been for him? Everyone in the crowd was shouting encouragement and applauding.
For me, it was totally unexpected, but also one of my favorite parts of the festival.
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Postby goathead » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:30 am

littleflower wrote:an art teacher recently hit on this in a lecture .... he could tell us what to do until he turned green, but it would still be nothing but information to us, rather than knowledge that we could use ... knowledge that builds on other knowledge ... knowledge that we would have to figure out for ourselves, with his info as a guide ...

kids have enough to learn without piling adult activities on top, whether explained or unexplained. time enough for that stuff in later years .... why push it? it's more likely to create only confusion...

but, again, i agree that there are plenty of good things for kids to learn at burning man.... and, hopefully, more protected parts of the city than where i was ....


LF other the the drinking in the daytime, just what other ADULT activities are you refering to?

I don't know how many kids wandered by where I was and I would put a set of glasses on them to watch what I was doing. Some of the older ones I even let try to burn a stone. It inspires me to give even more.
I should make it a point to get off my ass and make it down to kids camp and do some work.
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Postby Kinetik V » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:30 am

Out at the giant slide this year I watched as the kids had a ball out there. I'm standing there being a spectator as I'm scared of heights....seriously, shaking like a leaf on a tree in the wind just watching....until I got to talk to a 5 year old with his dad who OWNED that slide as they came down it together. He got my courage up, and next thing I know I did the damn thing twice. If it hadn't been for the kids, I would have skipped the slide and missed out on a fun experience.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:55 am

jkisha wrote:Another rediculous argument. ... But stop bitching about those that want to bring their kids. Seeing someone naked isn't going to distroy inocence. ..


then stop bitching yourself, and move on.

several years ago i opened discussions about the effects of people bringing in children, and there were quite a few who said they never feel comfortable knowing whats acceptable to do in front of them. i sincerely doubt parents would appreciate the humor of nambla the clown being sexually explicit standing next to thier kid, or even if they were, i can only imagine what law enforcement would make of it.

given enough kids, i dont think federal and state standards would allow for public nudity in the presence of children. so now you want that to go away too?
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Postby Kinetik V » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:02 am

SB's right...the nudity and children issue is likely going to come up with more intensity and frequency...it's a potential achilles heel for the event that could be exploited by those who want to see it shut down. Hmmm...time to give it some serious thought from a wide angle perspective instead of my own personal view....just because I'm comfortable with something...doesn't mean 49,000 others will feel the same.
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Postby littleflower » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:09 am

GH, your work with playa dust is amazing, i was one of the little kids fascinated by it! we also had several kids running around barbarian camp, and we all enjoyed them very much. i am not for banning kids or telling anyone how to raise their own ... but there was a great deal in BRC i would not want the young ones to see, and i know a lot of parents who agree with me.

my main point is that childhood is brief, and innocence, once lost, is impossible to regain... why push it?
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Postby Elorrum » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:54 am

If someone is too young to understand or tolerate dustmasks and goggles, and isn't willing to drink water when they are not necessarily thirsty then they are not going to be safe. I saw a mother in center camp two years ago in a white out, struggling to keep goggles and a mask on a two-ish child. O.K. so children are physically not self reliant... this is a parental call on whether they are going to manage all that, and weigh the benefit of enjoyment for the child against the discomfort or possible danger.

Parents make their own decisions and they ultimately are responsible for their children.

Responding to Little Flower's argument of jumping too far ahead on the developmental agenda. For myself I agree. A lot of the humor and behavior comes from very adult regions. Why is branding and whipping people fun or funny... enjoying inflicting or receiving pain under controlled circumstances, should a kid need to understand that?

I think impaired adults are confusing to kids.

I think it is mainly a place for adult age children. Much of it is a fantastically overwrought highly engineered theatre to recapture our sense of wonderment and childhood. Do individuals IN their childhood need some twisted expereince of what they already are? I worry a little about the young people who feel converted to an alternate universe where all the rules they don't like are gone. After experiencing an alternative society based on a whole lot of freedom, it's hard to accept the regular work and be responsible world. For me it took some distance to see how the freedoms needed to be blended in with the world I do live in, and integrated into my personal behavior. Just my experience, I found escape before I had fashioned anything of my own, and I think it was bad timing.
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:00 am

spectabillis wrote:
jkisha wrote:Another rediculous argument. ... But stop bitching about those that want to bring their kids. Seeing someone naked isn't going to distroy inocence. ..


then stop bitching yourself, and move on.

several years ago i opened discussions about the effects of people bringing in children, and there were quite a few who said they never feel comfortable knowing whats acceptable to do in front of them. i sincerely doubt parents would appreciate the humor of nambla the clown being sexually explicit standing next to thier kid, or even if they were, i can only imagine what law enforcement would make of it.

given enough kids, i dont think federal and state standards would allow for public nudity in the presence of children. so now you want that to go away too?


blah blah blah blah blah...if I had kids I'd bring them. Sorry you don't feel comfortable around children.

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Postby pinemom » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:02 am

My Burner baby did not come this year....


I missed her so bad.

I thought I would be happier to just be an adult for the first time in 3 yrs without her.


I was wrong.

but yes, she's burned for 3 yrs....knows the ropes and is a radically self reliant burner.

She was sorely missed by all in our camp.
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Postby penguin » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:09 pm

First, we brought our 3-yo with us, and would do it again. IMHO the argument against bring children is based on a mis-understanding of what BM is supposed to be:

From the BORG website-- we've all read this before, right?

Mission Statement
Our mission is to produce the annual event known as "Burning Man" and to guide, nurture and protect the more permanent community created by its culture. Our intention is to generate society that connects each individual to his or her creative powers, to participation in community, to the larger realm of civic life, and to the even greater world of nature that exists beyond society. We believe that the experience of Burning Man can produce positive spiritual change in the world. To this end, it is equally important that we communicate with one another, with the citizens of Black Rock City and with the community of Burning Man wherever it may arise. Burning Man is radically inclusive, and its meaning is potentially accessible to anyone. The touchstone of value in our culture will always be immediacy: experience before theory, moral relationships before politics, survival before services, roles before jobs, embodied ritual before symbolism, work before vested interest, participant support before sponsorship. Finally, in order to accomplish these ends, Burning Man must endure as a self-supporting enterprise that is capable of sustaining the lives of those who dedicate themselves to its work. From this devotion spring those duties that we owe to one another. We will always burn the Man


Ten Principles
Radical Inclusion
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

Gifting
Burning Man is devoted to acts of gift giving. The value of a gift is unconditional. Gifting does not contemplate a return or an exchange for something of equal value.

Decommodification
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

Radical Self-reliance
Burning Man encourages the individual to discover, exercise and rely on his or her inner resources.

Radical Self-expression
Radical self-expression arises from the unique gifts of the individual. No one other than the individual or a collaborating group can determine its content. It is offered as a gift to others. In this spirit, the giver should respect the rights and liberties of the recipient.

Communal Effort
Our community values creative cooperation and collaboration. We strive to produce, promote and protect social networks, public spaces, works of art, and methods of communication that support such interaction.

Civic Responsibility
We value civil society. Community members who organize events should assume responsibility for public welfare and endeavor to communicate civic responsibilities to participants. They must also assume responsibility for conducting events in accordance with local, state and federal laws.

Leaving No Trace
Our community respects the environment. We are committed to leaving no physical trace of our activities wherever we gather. We clean up after ourselves and endeavor, whenever possible, to leave such places in a better state than when we found them.

Participation
Our community is committed to a radically participatory ethic. We believe that transformative change, whether in the individual or in society, can occur only through the medium of deeply personal participation. We achieve being through doing. Everyone is invited to work. Everyone is invited to play. We make the world real through actions that open the heart.

Immediacy
Immediate experience is, in many ways, the most important touchstone of value in our culture. We seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and a recognition of our inner selves, the reality of those around us, participation in society, and contact with a natural world exceeding human powers. No idea can substitute for this experience


I see nothing about it being a adults only event, a rave, a nudist event, a drink-fest, drug-fest, sex-fest, etc., etc., etc. Maybe those things should be banned (just kidding) before considering banning kids. Heck if people want to ban kids how about banning people with weak hearts, or asthma, or?

To me it's the adults that don't fit quite right -- most people coming have to change from the default world to fit in -- kids don't have to change.

Just my 2-cents.
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Postby mo » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:33 pm

Kids are a mixed bag out on the Playa. It's easy to imagine that some burner parents would want to instill some of the values of BRC in their kids.

There can be a downside to the involvement of kids at BRC. Here is what happened for me this year.

On Thursday I took a ride on the Nowhere Ombibus (open top double decker London style bus) and there were two little boys (about 9 and 11 years old) in the seat directly in front of me.

Based on my close observations of over an hour's ride, they were:

a) not at all interested in the lovely view of the Playa or what was going on either out there, or what was going on on the bus with the other passengers.

b) very annoying to the rest of the passengers who wanted to converse and play and enjoy the unusual and lovely scene on the bus and on the Playa.

The kids yelled almost incessantly and rudely, and they spent most of the hour or so long ride playing with toy guns and other toys they had. They fought over toys. They threw MOOP overboard just to watch it fall to the ground 12 feet below. (I chastised them and they stopped) They also completely pissed off their poor father who wanted them to look around and simply experience what was going on around them. At one point, he frustratedly and almost angrily told them that they were missing the best view of BRC he had ever seen. The kids felt slightly bad for a moment or so, but there wasn't anything they could do; they simply weren't interested in what was going on out there. His values of BRC were foreign to them at that point in their lives and they wanted to play with toys and roughhouse with one another.

I felt sorry for the father who had payed for the tickets and wasted a lot of resources (and his own enjoyment of the scene) on kids who really didn't appreciate being there.

I felt sorry for the boys who were getting a lot of negativity for just being the unconscious little beings they were.

I felt sorry for myself and the other passengers on the bus who were having to put up with screaming little boys who were absorbed in each other and their own private games while the rest of us were trying to enjoy the ride and the lovely scene on and off the bus.

Honestly, the two boys would have been just as happy sitting on a couch in front of a TV. I and the other passengers would have much preferred that the boys were elsewhere.

So, I guess it depends on the kids and the parents and other factors, but, for my own part, kids at BRC don't add to the event in a positive way.
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Postby oneeyeddick » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:03 pm

I heard that some mother got slammed to the ground and cuffed momentarily by LEOs in center camp(thursday?)
for letting her 4 year old daughter run around without some clothes on.

Anyone else hear about this ?
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:22 pm

penguin wrote:First, we brought our 3-yo with us, and would do it again. IMHO the argument against bring children is based on a mis-understanding of what BM is supposed to be:


no child is allowed at the event without explicit supervision, period, thats a stipulation thats not only required by the org, but unfortunately has to be that way for liability reasons. almost every year you hear a story about some lost child wandering around or left unattended. all it takes is a single misguided parent to sue over damages incurred by something which is normal at bman, like open fires, art cars, dangerous performances...

... and you are expecting these things to go away to accomodate a safe environment for children? you may be a responsible parent, but reality shows not everyone is.
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Postby penguin » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:40 pm

spectabillis wrote:
penguin wrote:First, we brought our 3-yo with us, and would do it again. IMHO the argument against bring children is based on a mis-understanding of what BM is supposed to be:


no child is allowed at the event without explicit supervision, period, thats a stipulation thats not only required by the org, but unfortunately has to be that way for liability reasons. almost every year you hear a story about some lost child wandering around or left unattended. all it takes is a single misguided parent to sue over damages incurred by something which is normal at bman, like open fires, art cars, dangerous performances...

... and you are expecting these things to go away to accomodate a safe environment for children? you may be a responsible parent, but reality shows not everyone is.


Agreed, you are either 18 or have someone 18+ who takes responsibility for you -- but what is the difference between the parent of a 4-you sueing for something and a 20-yo, or 80-yo sueing (other than maybe PR)?

I don't expect the event to "change" to accomodate children -- it's the parent responsibility to decide what is and is not appropriate for their children to experience (just like what cable channels they watch, what toys they play with, who their friends are, what viedo games, etc., etc., etc).

I agree they are some children that probably have no business whatsoever being at BM -- but the same can be said for some of the adult attendees.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:00 pm

penguin wrote:I don't expect the event to "change" to accomodate children --


but thats the point, it does, and will continue.
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Postby penguin » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:22 pm

spectabillis wrote:
penguin wrote:I don't expect the event to "change" to accomodate children --


but thats the point, it does, and will continue.


Is it really changing because of children attending, or is it publicity in general -- 50,000 people "get it"* and attend -- the other nearly 7 billion obviously don't else they'd be there too. The "usual" response I get from people I told I was going this year was either "Huh, what's that" from the people who've never heard of it, or "Huh, you're going to that [nudist|hippie|drug|etc] thing?"

* and no, 50,000 people who attend don't "get it", I think the changes people seem to be concerned with come more from the people who have no clue before getting there and do the "OMG there's drugs here!", etc.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:32 pm

errrmm... are you really asking if i believe the presence of children is the sole cause for the shift into a generic mainstreamed environment?


hope not
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Postby penguin » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:47 pm

Heck no. I think the presence of the generic mainstream is the reason for the shift to the generic mainstream. A "burner" is a "burner" no matter what the age, just as a "tourist" is a "tourist" no matter what the age. You either get it or you don't -- the problem is those who don't get it rather than just leaving it alone want to change it into something they do "get".

If I were wanting to "tone it down" I can think or 100 excuses to do so before getting to the inclusion of kids -- however, I "get it" and have no desire to force "change".

I just hate to see children picked on when there is some much that could be learned at BM that is positive and good -- yes there is "bad" too -- but have you watched TV lately?
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Postby oneeyeddick » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:26 pm

I blame all of this "shifting" on that fucking Malcolm in the Middle episode.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW!!

Postby RaineFX » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:49 pm

I'VE NEVER SAID HOW TO RAISE YOUR CHILD/REN!
What did i read! Only Jah knows and he will take care of the motherfuckers!

I've got 4 beautiful children of my own! I would love to bring them to BRC!!! To see the art, cars, lites, slide, the love I get from most, etc.!!!!

BUT, I DON'T BRING MY CHILDREN TO THE BRC! DUE TO WHAT BURNING MAN HAS EVOLVED INTO!!!

IN THE DEFALT WORLD I DON'T LET MY CHILDREN PRANCE AROUND NAKED IN FRONT OF THE SEX OFFENDERS HOUSE DOWN THE STREET FOR HIM TO TAKE PICTURES FOR HIS USE!!!! AND BRC SHOULD NOT BE ANY DIFFERENT!!! open your eyes

FACE IT PEEPS...WE GOT THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE PRAY LIKE WOLVES ON OUR CHILDREN!!! IN THE DEFAULT WORLD AND AT BRC!!!

THIS IS THE INNOCENCE I AM TALKIN ABOUT::: SOME PERVERT TAKING AWAY THESE CHILDRENS LIFE AND INNOCENCE BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GET HIS/HER KICKS OFF...SICK MOTHERFUCKERS...THOSE WHO DO THIS WILL ROTT IN HELL.... beter yet lets BURN THEM!!!!

BRC Community needs to pitch in more if chidren continue to attend and grow in BRC!!! Evolve for the Childrens Sake...Evolve themselves for the future life beings that we are!!! Otherwise NO CHILDREN SHOULD BE ALLOWED!!
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Re: NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW!!

Postby ibdave » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:31 pm

RaineFX wrote:I'VE NEVER SAID HOW TO RAISE YOUR CHILD/REN!
What did i read! Only Jah knows and he will take care of the motherfuckers!

I've got 4 beautiful children of my own! I would love to bring them to BRC!!! To see the art, cars, lites, slide, the love I get from most, etc.!!!!

BUT, I DON'T BRING MY CHILDREN TO THE BRC! DUE TO WHAT BURNING MAN HAS EVOLVED INTO!!!

IN THE DEFALT WORLD I DON'T LET MY CHILDREN PRANCE AROUND NAKED IN FRONT OF THE SEX OFFENDERS HOUSE DOWN THE STREET FOR HIM TO TAKE PICTURES FOR HIS USE!!!! AND BRC SHOULD NOT BE ANY DIFFERENT!!! open your eyes

FACE IT PEEPS...WE GOT THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE PRAY LIKE WOLVES ON OUR CHILDREN!!! IN THE DEFAULT WORLD AND AT BRC!!!

THIS IS THE INNOCENCE I AM TALKIN ABOUT::: SOME PERVERT TAKING AWAY THESE CHILDRENS LIFE AND INNOCENCE BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GET HIS/HER KICKS OFF...SICK MOTHERFUCKERS...THOSE WHO DO THIS WILL ROTT IN HELL.... beter yet lets BURN THEM!!!!

BRC Community needs to pitch in more if chidren continue to attend and grow in BRC!!! Evolve for the Childrens Sake...Evolve themselves for the future life beings that we are!!! Otherwise NO CHILDREN SHOULD BE ALLOWED!!



Now your Talking... It's what my Wife and I have been saying for the 9 of our 12 years going.. :shock: :shock: :roll: :!: :!: :idea: :idea:
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

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Postby rodiponer » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:46 pm

RaineFX, are you really saying that children should not go to Burning Man because there are perverts there? Your writing style is barely coherent to me.

Mo, I empathize with you most about the children on the bus not 'getting it'. I had this exact same problem with my three and six year old. They simply do not have the patience or sophistication to appreciate a long ride on an art car, or most playa art. After an hour or two they always wanted to get back to the trampolines and their friends at Kidsville, and the only two (short) negative experiences I had with them all week was when we were 'stuck' on an art car. This is why we almost always traveled on our own means.

But I of course take exception to your thought that "kids at BRC don't add to the event in a positive way." If that's not just a rhetorical flourish, the annoying way modern educated people have been taught to drive every last nail all the way into the coffin so that the argument is taken to completeness, then I ask that you look inside yourself, your own internal dialog at the time, and make sure that you aren't just letting the children be a focal point to precipitate out some other bullshit.
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Postby Kinetik V » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:01 am

While you choose to live in fear and hide your kids, I'll take the education and self-defense approach, along with other tactics so that we're living...and not as victims either...real or potential.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree..and I'll hold my tongue even though it's very difficult to do so!
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Postby mo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:25 am

rodiponer wrote:But I of course take exception to your thought that "kids at BRC don't add to the event in a positive way." If that's not just a rhetorical flourish, the annoying way modern educated people have been taught to drive every last nail all the way into the coffin so that the argument is taken to completeness, then I ask that you look inside yourself, your own internal dialog at the time, and make sure that you aren't just letting the children be a focal point to precipitate out some other bullshit.


It's OK if you take exception to my statement, but I stand by it.

We can have different opinions and probably still cooperate and get along.

I'm offering my own considered opinion based on my own experiences and, as far as I can tell, I am not "just letting the children be a focal point to precipitate out some other bullshit." (WTF?)

I generally like kids but, speaking for myself, I don't approve of the presence of children at BRC.

BRC is not a child-friendly place. It is genuinely dangerous, very sophisticated and very adult, and I like it that way.

You are free to bring your kids, and I'm free to think it's a bad idea for you to do so.

I am not trying to tell you what to do, I am just offering my own opinion on the matter.
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Postby goathead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:51 am

oneeyeddick wrote:I heard that some mother got slammed to the ground and cuffed momentarily by LEOs in center camp(thursday?)
for letting her 4 year old daughter run around without some clothes on.

Anyone else hear about this ?


I heard it was the 4 yr old that got slammed to the ground for letting her mother run around without any cloths on.
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:03 am

penguin wrote:I just hate to see children picked on when there is some much that could be learned at BM that is positive and good -- yes there is "bad" too -- but have you watched TV lately?


has far less to do with placing blame on children, and far more to do with behaving in accordance to whats appropriate in thier presence.

does that suck for kids? you bet'cha. but we all used to make certain sacrifices to accommodate others freedom of expression. apartantly thats asking to much of people, just like it was asking too much that people not take pics of others without knowing if they are ok with it.
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Postby goathead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:28 am

Raines

Fuck Off.

If you don't want to bring your kids, great, that is your choice.

I really enjoy how a 1 year burners knows it all, where we have been and what we have evolved too.

I really enjoy the
Evolve for the Childrens Sake...
kind of reminds me of the gun control crowd, Do it for the sake of the kids.......
What about the kids......

If you have kids and want to bring them, cool.
If you have kids and don't want to bring them, good.

If you want to bar parents from bringing their kids,
Fuck Off.
Its not your choice.

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Had dinner at Bruno's last night. A 2/3 year old was VERY UNHAPPY.
Your right kids, should never be seen or heard.
:twisted:
How dare, they ruin the experiance, of my dinner for me.
:lol:
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Postby shroom » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:15 am

I haven't been yet...but I wouldn't bring my kid the first time. I'm excited about having the experience for me!

After I see what it's all about I might bring my kid, or I might not. It's a choice every parent should make on their own.
"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must first set yourself on fire."~~Fred Shero
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:01 am

goathead wrote:Raines

Fuck Off.


is there a special reason for the frequent insults towards users?
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Postby mo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:16 am

There was an event, reported in the Black Rock Beacon, this year where one of the law enforcement agencies brought in an underage decoy to get served alcohol.

They busted and fined somebody for pouring a drink for this person.

If BM were an adults-only event, this could not have happened.
Mo Betta
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