many thanks badger
i quote the following in full from the good doctor, because its one of those ideal essences of what can become of good discussions.
dr.placebo wrote:Ideally, what I would prefer is that we could agree that banning some activity, especially one that has a long history, must be justified by some demonstration of harm. After all, the title of this thread proposes restricting the freedom of parents to bring their children to the playa, a freedom that has a historical basis.
One can justify this restriction by demonstrating that the children are significantly harmed. I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence on this one. The trouble is that there are a goodly number of parents who don't think that the evidence is there, and have experience with bringing their kids to the playa for multiple years, so the evidence needs to be fairly strong to counter their experience.
A second approach might be that the freedom to bring children must be curtailed in order to protect a larger freedom. That is the proposition when someone claims that artistic or expressive freedom is stifled by the presence of children. You have to show that a significant class of artists either stopped coming to the playa or refuse to consider coming to the playa because there are children present.
A third approach might be to claim that the very existence of Burning Man is threatened by the presence of children. I'm not sure how this one works, but it appears to be raised in previous posts. Perhaps one of the child protection laws might be invoked to shut down the event (even in the absence of evidence of harm). If this is the concern, then let's get busy and find out who's trying to pull the plug. I've not yet seen anything credible on this, but I'm open to seeing it.
For the sake of argument, let's suppose that the danger is real, but the evidence is not gathered. Then, if you want to ban children, propose a means for gathering the evidence. If children are in danger, or the artists are in danger, or the event itself is in danger, then let's get more than personal opinion and vague anecdotes. If this issue is really important then it should justify the effort.
i told him late last night how much its appreciated, but i also want to thank everyone else who has presently kept the discussion on track, and in the civil manner that allows it to hold.
edited: because i overlooked this small bit
actiongrl wrote:Maybe, just maybe, the complainers need to remember that children are people, not just small adjuncts to their parents, and that our kids have as much right to be there as you do.
cant speak for everyone, but it twists my stomach at the idea if they have been and the parent would have to tell them they cant come back. but i stopped taking note of the number and nature of the complainers over a couple of years ago, otherwise i would have linked it all. they were tribe discussions, not eply.