The necessity of the Burning Man ethos

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Sham » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:30 am

Poor Deb Prothero came by our camp and asked for Shambala. I am only that here on ePlaya and no one knew who she was asking for. I was given a playa name this past year afer saving the eldery mother of one of the founders of BM, who was lost out on the playa. For a while I was posting on here under my own name, and that was not working out as well as I hoped! :roll:
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Postby can't sit still » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:26 pm

The gifting idea is fine,,,, except that, in the long run, more and more people will expect a free lunch. That's the way that human nature works.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"
"should be rewarded according to how much he works."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_ ... d_examples
Those 2 phrases spell out the essential details between capitalism and socialism.
Socialism works fine for ants because they're all equal. and all do the same work.
Pre-historic shamans probably invented socialism. They wanted to commune with the gods all day rather than doing any actual work.

I do believe in an economy based on sharing like the Amish. They don't allow anybody to join them so they have pretty good control on work imput. In the real world, it's far more difficult to establish work imput. We tend to relate it to wealth produced. This is a big fallacy foisted on us by society and power groups.

We need a new paradigm for establishing value. Fuck the money standard. With computers, we can create a new accounting.
Social Value
Suppose that everything was accounted for. All your contributions and all your misdeeds.
Everything that you did would measured against it's value to society.
Raise good kids,,, that has great value.++++++++
Execute your job competently ++++
DUI crash - - - - -
Intentionally mess up somebody's life - - - - -

The support that you receive from society would be based on your contribution to society. The creativity at Burning man would be a ++++++++

Why should Madoff get 50 years and Milken get only 3 AND $55 million. He ruined the lives of hundreds of people. If he had been judged on his total effect on society, he would be so negative that society would just withdraw ALL support.
This system would recompense the charity worker AND the researcher.
It wouldn't compensate the able-bodied layabout.
There are flaws. I think that most of them could be compensated for. This system would wouldn't be cold-blooded like bare-knuckles capitalism. It wouldn't destroy incentive like socialism.
The system could be jiggered until it had the best parts of both capitalism and socialism.
Give me time to figure it out.
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Postby the fire elf » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:08 pm

then don't forget to figure out how they'd respond to novel stimuli:

x^(wiggle)
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:48 am

That IS the problem. Who decides the societal value of an object or service?

Is it going to be Hunter S. Thompson or a baptist preacher. Wealth is apportioned democratically. People give you their money if they like your product or service. It seems like societal value could be assigned in much the same way.... By large numbers of people rather than some select group.
Assignation of wealth value can often be pretty short-sighted. People buy absolute crap. Societal value would suffer somewhat from this same problem.
The idea is only a concept. It would require people in power to relinquish much of that power. I don't see that happening very soon. :(
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Postby the fire elf » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:46 pm

It would require people in power to relinquish much of that power.


it's a power structure thinly but inexorably divided from pulling worth out or putting worth into a dollar

many seem to disdain making the dollar worthy, but would pull all of the worth they could get out of it

imbalance?

would that they put worth in as eagerly as they withdrawImage


as far as a conversation on powers, there are many kinds and types

some build up, some demoralize

categorically, some's ineffible
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Postby the fire elf » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:28 am

how much of the angst could be helped by having private membership
clubhouses, dues/standings and such, to create venues to foster
semisemilar bm moods that encourage creativity, participation, people as
expression waiting to happen?

the cloistered state of things may lead to feelings disconnect... or ponderings of possibilites

if you leave it at dissatisfaction, shall we blame those who don't actuate your lofty dreams?
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:34 am

can't sit still wrote:That IS the problem. Who decides the societal value of an object or service?


That's up to society.
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Postby the fire elf » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:49 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:That's up to society.


and exactly how?


seems somthing like this, from here:


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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:52 am

So much for this thread.
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Postby can't sit still » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:46 pm

Dougly, it seems that we both are having trouble comprehending the entirety of Fire Elf's ideas and plans.
For myself, I claim that the antithesis of virtue must surely be TAX. The best studies claim that for every dollar taken out of the economy for TAX, it diminishes the GDP by three dollars.
You could buy 5 acres and try to live off the land but, you would need to cough up money for property TAX. You could have a nice little business but, TAX makes you work much harder. TAX takes about 1/3 of wages.
The system is a big washing machine that cleans us out on a continuing basis. Currency inflation steals our savings.
You can live frugally and avoid most of the predations of the finance system but, you just can't hide from TAX. GOV is going to great lengths to make sure that you don't live on public land. They are also going to great lengths to make sure that you don't hide your income. They want every last dollar from every last person.
The rich are leaving the country in record numbers. The top 1 % pay a LOT of tax. Imagine what happens when they flee with their capital..... more TAX
http://actionamerica.org/taxecon/tickfast.shtml

We work the first few months of the year just to pay all the taxes. The British work almost 1/2 the year to pay taxes.
Sharing and gifting are good ideas. The problem is that the parasites want the biggest share.
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Postby the fire elf » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:00 pm

not my ideas... just found

if it spurs me to looking and (perhaps) learning, soo much the better for me

if it drops in anything useful for another as well, then surely it was worthwhile

as an experiment in "radical expression", it amuses me




regardless, bioforms bite the bitter apple, when they have no advantage to push

where do you find this sense of entitlement?

were you born with a dollar in your butt?
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Postby the fire elf » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:54 pm

ImageImage
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Postby the fire elf » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:46 pm

Image
"World conquerers sometimes become fools,
but fools never become world conquerers." -The Outer Limits


Imageat some point, any argument with an arbitration sounds like a bid to be arbiter

is the problem ever the solution?
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Postby the fire elf » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:58 pm

ImageImage

Unlike traditional Western societies of the time, many pirate crews
operated as limited democracies. Pirate communities were some of the
first to instate a system of checks and balances similar to the one used by
the present-day United States and many other countries. The first record
of such a government aboard a pirate sloop dates to the 1600s, a full
century before the United States' and France's adoption of democracy in
1789, or Spain's move to democracy in 1812.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:45 pm

In countries in which bribery takes more than its fair share, these countries are commonly plagued by inflation. This is because costs rise, but services remain the same, since much money is sent to those who do not produce anything for society (the bribers).

I'd say that tax can be better than this, since it is usually invested in some way into infrastructure. Tax built the internet if I am not mistaken.
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Postby can't sit still » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:04 pm

You know that some of the firefighters in Vallejo, Ca were paid $ 200,000. I've never paid a bribe over $50.
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Postby TomServo » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:31 pm

Anarchy won't save anyone, its just the way things work without powerful assholes.


A little late, but I've been busy.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
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Postby TomServo » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:34 pm

can't sit still wrote:You know that some of the firefighters in Vallejo, Ca were paid $ 200,000. I've never paid a bribe over $50.


By who? I thought vallejo was bankrupt.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
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Postby can't sit still » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:34 pm

Here's a lecture that is VERY enlightening. YES Larry, I mean YOU!!
http://vimeo.com/7857584
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Postby mayavin » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:41 pm

Image
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Postby can't sit still » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:58 pm

Here's an interesting quote concerning morality. The author claims that no system of governance will work if we aren't moral.


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human
passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or
gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale
goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious
people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." So said
Founding Father and America's second President John Adams. And he was
absolutely right. And that is what is absolutely wrong with our country
today: America is in a complete moral, societal, and cultural meltdown.
Chuck Baldwin
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Postby lurker » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:12 am

The ideas of commodification and crass commecialism occur in societies where one can have what others consider 'too much'.

Having seventy types of soap gto choose from at the local wallyworld can look like like overkill to us--but like nirvana to the man who's gonna live a shorter life because simple sanitation is beyond his societys grasp.

We bemoan our good fortune.

BRC works because the citizens enter having had to provide for all their basic needs and wants before entering. It is a society where everyone chooses and has what they think of as 'enough'. This leaves interactions free of having to cope with subsistence.

The only way this could work in the world at large is if that ability--to be able, on one's own, to always have, at minimum, what one considers 'enough'.

Working towards a post-scarcity economy is the only way to get this, and all that soap is a step along the way.

Since we are not moving towards this as a unified world, but rather in fits and jerks, here and there, we have 'haves' and have-nots'. But this is, if we work for it, a temporary situation--already the 'poor' in the US have more than the middle class in many other nations.

The question remains, what is the best way to get there? Abandonment of material things--or celebration of them?
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:20 am

Good post , lurker. It sounds a bit weak, but, I think that we need to work on the "spiritual". Most people are consumed with insecurity. If we worked more on individual growth, we would waste less time trying to accumulate possessions ,,, to impress others. Keynesian economics requires an ever-increasing economy. Advertising convinces us that we must impress others with all our possessions.
8 Bedroom houses for a retired couple. Conspicuous consumption to impress the world. If we worked more on personal growth, we could turn away from materialism as the focal point of our lives. Also, GOV promotes insecurity so that we'll turn to them as the ultimate "security blanket". All this insecurity causes most people to over-accumulate. The less-driven have a correspondingly smaller pool.
Gandhi said " there is enough for everybody's need. There isn't enough for everybody's greed"
We need to get rid of the insecurity that causes over-accumulation. GOV is the source of much of that insecurity.
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Postby lurker » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:47 pm

But, if there was enough for everybodys' greed, there wouldn't be greed.

If we work towards a post scarcity society, and figure out a way for people to meet their material needs--and wants, we eliminate all the problems that stem from the need to get.

With those problems eliminated, we can move towards developing our selves.
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Postby can't sit still » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:52 am

I suppose that we could eliminate people's needs. BUT, when it comes to wants, there is NO limit at all.
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:32 am

Here's an article on homelessness. It mentions about people and families "doubling up". It also mentions that this is just a temp thing for people who eventually end up on the street.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maria-fos ... 08679.html
I can understand the problems of having long-term live-ins.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:50 am

So can I. I also have read a certain amount about industrial europe when the population was coming in from the country (while simultaniously growing larger in an absolute sense) into the cities. Old houses getting new walls for privacy. Flop houses. And it seems that we could do more to cram people in. Certainly, *third world* shanty towns show what's possible. And I sort of look forward to McMansions becoming boarding houses when they are too expensive for a single family to heat and upkeep.
So, I don't actually think these would be positive changes. But we're also not anywhere near touching bottom on this issue.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:18 am

Do we pay our Significant Others for their love, affection, sexual favors, foot massages, chicken dinners? They are given freely, out of love, no strings attached - if it's a healthy relationship.

I think that the Gifting model is based on this.

?
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Postby Elderberry » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:49 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:Do we pay our Significant Others for their love, affection, sexual favors, foot massages, chicken dinners? They are given freely, out of love, no strings attached - if it's a healthy relationship.

I think that the Gifting model is based on this.

?


I think some might disagree.

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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:09 pm

jkisha wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:Do we pay our Significant Others for their love, affection, sexual favors, foot massages, chicken dinners? They are given freely, out of love, no strings attached - if it's a healthy relationship.

I think that the Gifting model is based on this.

?


I think some might disagree.

JK


Perhaps it's up to them to do so.
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