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Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

A great Idea.

Postby enthropic » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:40 am

Then set up a theme camp to educate and enlighten fellow burners on good desert stewardship. And finally, stand as heros amongst us.
Wind_Bourn


This is a great idea. Only can it be possible for Sb.org to Adapt their ways in a more possitive, active, result driven way.

please respond allonon2,sbm.org,r.t.p,?,,,,,
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Postby technopatra » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:18 am

Wind_Borne wrote:Thinking in pictures; communicating in words (with limited success).


You're going to have to change that sig to say "unmitigated success", I should think.

I'm off to the crush thread...
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umm badger you gave me the defniantion to work with

Postby allanon2 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:40 am

and this is all you could come up with?
explain why its a leap? or can't you? you peopel here resort to bashing and skiritng around the issue when you are truely confronted with issues.
I used your defination of a wetland Badger and now its a leap of faith?
humm.
explain what i am saying is false. pick my argument out peice by peice. prove me wrong.

I am watiing. or am i right?

Badger wrote:
Wow, I haven't seen a leap like that since Evel Kneivel tried to jump Snake Canyon.


The quick description of Allanon2's logic thread: selective interpretation

The technical description of Allanon2's logic thread: fallacy of explanation. In this case the argumentative fallacy is known as one of 'limited depth' where the (respondent's) theory seeks to explain an experience or occurrence by appealing to some underlying cause or phenomena in spite of the proof.

The shorthand description of Allanon2's logic thread:[/b] I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I?

You can put your pants back On now Allan.
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Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:47 am

So, are we having fun yet?

The stopburningman group (real or sockpuppets) have yet to change the minds of those who disagree with them and their assertions.

It looks like they need to change tactics, because what they've been doing so far has been a dismal failure.

Remember guys, you have to convince us--not the other way around. So far all you've done is piss off, annoy, and alienate us.

Your current approach is wrong--change it or quit.
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That makes no sense

Postby stopbmorg » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:26 am

Why should we pay for the privilege of going to an event that we don't want to go to any longer, in order to educate people? This is a matter of BRC, LLC taking responsibility for its actions, and a matter of BLM having a small flame lit under it to see some action taken.

After going in 1999 and 2000, it was 'neat', but not something that I personally like to do anymore. That's not denigration, that's personal preference.
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Re: umm badger you gave me the defniantion to work with

Postby talisen » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:35 am

allanon2 wrote:and this is all you could come up with?
explain why its a leap? or can't you? you peopel here resort to bashing and skiritng around the issue when you are truely confronted with issues.
I used your defination of a wetland Badger and now its a leap of faith?
humm.
explain what i am saying is false. pick my argument out peice by peice. prove me wrong.


I am wondering.......
Is misspelling in a post the same as spittle on ones lips in the midst of fanaticism?

Oh- and why are you even bothering to say we?
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Re: That makes no sense

Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:56 am

stopbmorg wrote:Why should we pay for the privilege of going to an event that we don't want to go to any longer, in order to educate people?


Don't go.

Be creative and find another way to "educate" the masses. Just make sure that you're not trying to teach a cat to whistle (wastes your time, annoys the cat...).

stopbmorg wrote:This is a matter of BRC, LLC taking responsibility for its actions, and a matter of BLM having a small flame lit under it to see some action taken.


So, are you asserting that the BLM is incapable or doesn't have the resources to manage its land and that the current system is devoid of holding parties responsible for their actions/inactions? I guess you are then saying that permits and inspections are worthless. What alternative are you suggesting? Why should we listen to you if you don't have a suggestion?

stopbmorg wrote:After going in 1999 and 2000, it was 'neat', but not something that I personally like to do anymore. That's not denigration, that's personal preference.


So why do you care so much? There are far worse things to be offended at than what happens in the Black Rock Desert. Why don't you put your energy into something that matters to the whole planet, if saving the world is what you care about?

...or maybe it's because you have an agenda other than environmental stewardship, and you are trying to use your "concern" for the environment as a Trojan Horse.
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Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:10 am

So...

Is it time for "chicken fucking" yet?
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Re: That makes no sense

Postby Rob the Wop » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:15 am

stopbmorg wrote:Why should we pay for the privilege of going to an event that we don't want to go to any longer, in order to educate people? This is a matter of BRC, LLC taking responsibility for its actions, and a matter of BLM having a small flame lit under it to see some action taken.

After going in 1999 and 2000, it was 'neat', but not something that I personally like to do anymore. That's not denigration, that's personal preference.


You don't want to go to the event anymore, yet you want to attack BMORG.

You don't want to take the time, money, or effort to reach the greatest number of burners. You don't want to take the time or effort to establish a relationship with BMORG to address these issues "so close to your heart". You want to "light a flame" under BLM without hiring a specialist to make a proper assesment (or, heaven forbid, taking the measurements and data directly- not use second hand information). You want to "educate" people without actually having to do work.

And you want the people you are "educating" to believe in your ecological sincerity when you used to tear the playa surface up in your Neon.

Any other work you would like other people to do to satisfy your vendetta against BM?

I hope you realize that movements aren't started drinking Pepsi and eating pizza in your underwear, typing away furiously, and searching the Internet for dirt to dig up. At least, not political activist movements.
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Re: umm badger you gave me the defniantion to work with

Postby allanon2 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:41 am

allanon2 wrote:and this is all you could come up with?
explain why its a leap? or can't you? you peopel here resort to bashing and skiritng around the issue when you are truely confronted with issues.
I used your defination of a wetland Badger and now its a leap of faith?
humm.
explain what i am saying is false. pick my argument out peice by peice. prove me wrong.

i am wating for a reponse.

this is just one of the many arguments at www.stopburningman.org

this is one that easy to see and easy to focus on.
others require more thought. If i can't get people to see eye to eye on this one others are even more difficult. Badger said its not now a wetland but by using his same defination it used to be a wetland. how can you get a clearer idea than this?


Badger wrote:
Wow, I haven't seen a leap like that since Evel Kneivel tried to jump Snake Canyon.


The quick description of Allanon2's logic thread: selective interpretation

The technical description of Allanon2's logic thread: fallacy of explanation. In this case the argumentative fallacy is known as one of 'limited depth' where the (respondent's) theory seeks to explain an experience or occurrence by appealing to some underlying cause or phenomena in spite of the proof.

The shorthand description of Allanon2's logic thread:[/b] I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I?

You can put your pants back On now Allan.
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Tugging on Rob's sleeve

Postby foamin' at the mouth » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:41 am

Hey, Rob, Notice how these 'individuals' failed to address or answer the official response from the organization. It was the clear, brilliant letter addressing their issues right before Badgers enlightening post. They just ignored it and are hoping we wont notice.
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Re: go ahead and say where my logic is flawed

Postby Patience » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:46 am

allanon2 wrote:it may not be written as articiltly as some peopel but the logic is sound.


Okay, I don't usually criticize people's spelling, because I find it petty.

But "articiltly?!?" Seriously, man, there's help out there. Don't be afraid to reach out.

http://www.proliteracy.org/
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Postby Das Bus » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:54 am

""""or maybe it's because you have an agenda other than environmental stewardship, and you are trying to use your "concern" for the environment as a Trojan Horse.""""

I think you hit the nail right on the head Zane!

Every year someone comes along to try and discredit the event in some way. (Hippies and Heretics and Harlots, Oh My!) But all they truly want is to be the one who stopped Burning Man, so they can go to the media and get a big ego boost. They're not concerned for anything or anyone but how they can make a name for themselves.
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Re: Tugging on Rob's sleeve

Postby Rob the Wop » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:11 pm

foamin' at the mouth wrote:Hey, Rob, Notice how these 'individuals' failed to address or answer the official response from the organization. It was the clear, brilliant letter addressing their issues right before Badgers enlightening post. They just ignored it and are hoping we wont notice.


Yup, seen that. And his response to Badger's wetlands definition was stupifying. It was like hearing a debate on nuclear physics between Albert Einstein and George Bush Jr. Badger produces cites and legal proof of a wetlands definition, and is refuted by "wel that jutss proves my piont that ur wrogn. so now reely proev me wrong.".

Kind of a jaw dropper for me.
Last edited by Rob the Wop on Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:30 pm

Zane5100 wrote:So...

Is it time for "chicken fucking" yet?


There is always time for chicken fucking.
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Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:39 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
Zane5100 wrote:So...

Is it time for "chicken fucking" yet?


There is always time for chicken fucking.


For once, I'm actually looking forward to it.

Talk about a violation of nature! Helpless chickens being raped by deranged humans... now there is a cause worth taking up.
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Re: Tugging on Rob's sleeve

Postby BlueBirdPoof » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:49 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:. And his response to Badger's wetlands definition was stupifying. It was like hearing a debate on nuclear physics between Albert Einstein and a 1990 Special Olympics Gold Medalist.


Rob
I hate to say this, but I find myself a little uncomfortable with your invoking the Special Olympics here. My path through the wonderful world of disability and the ADA has raised my awareness, at least some, about the developmentally disabled. Not that it isn't a lot of trouble for me sometimes, I was raised in one of those families that regaurd stupidity as a sign of lesser humanity and I have to fight that. I have to remind myself that any individual with Down's syndrome is better socially than I am (she cocks her head to listen to e-playa say "damn right!") and possibly better than Einstein as well. (Okay, he was special, but I have personal experience with the pure geekiness of physics/math minds.) Yes, this cohort of posters are arrogant, and brash, and discourteous, and smug, and self-rightious, and yes stupid. I just wish you had chosen a less offensive image.

That being said, I've enjoyed your last few posts and your fasion sense has me wowed.

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Re: Tugging on Rob's sleeve

Postby Rob the Wop » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:57 pm

BlueBirdPoof wrote: I just wish you had chosen a less offensive image.


Duly noted. I should have used G. Bush instead.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:57 pm

This is better than work! Too bad it doesn't pay as well...

There have been a few points raised that could be further discussed (such as);

The method of transect determination, etc is well defined (and also used for other areas at least now and then), but is it appropriate to determine ALL potential impacts? I would be interested in finding out more about the special study to determine the effects of oil, etc, on the Playa. How was this done, and is it done every year? Can one area that is extremely saturated (oil pan blow-out say or generator fuel spill) have an effect that is out of proportion to the statistical probability of uncovering it? Has it been done for other use areas as well, and how did BM compare with other groups? Can anyone give me a pointer? This is my CPP (current pet peeve) and I want to be as informed as possible.

Aside from volunteering with DPW or EG, are there other opportunities (perhaps during the year) to contribute to the well being of BRC?

Thanks to all who took the time to craft a well articulated post. Jafe
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Postby Rob the Wop » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:29 pm

stopbmorg.com states

"Yes, this site is full of emotion, and rightly so. We love
Black Rock Desert as much as some of you love Burning Man."

then

"We have found 24 inch pieces of rebar in vertical orientations.
Do you want to hit something like that at even 30 mph on the playa?"

Uhhh...yah. So you're saying that you love the desert because it's a great place to drive over 30 mph on? Just how much hypocrisy can your conscience take before it causes your head to explode?
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Postby stuart » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:38 pm

that any individual with Down's syndrome is better socially than I am


it's best to avoid generalizations like this. A friend worked with a down's kid who needed to be confined due to his rage disorder. Of course, I don't know you either.
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Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:30 pm

stuart wrote:
that any individual with Down's syndrome is better socially than I am


it's best to avoid generalizations like this. A friend worked with a down's kid who needed to be confined due to his rage disorder. Of course, I don't know you either.


Uh, I have to go with stuart on this--I almost got into a knife fight (with big kitchen knives no less!) with a dude who had Down's.

Talking my way out of that was one the hardest things I'd ever done, as the dude was not in the mood to listen.
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Rebar

Postby Zona » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:33 pm

"We have found 24 inch pieces of rebar in vertical orientations.
Do you want to hit something like that at even 30 mph on the playa?"

You stopped, pulled them out, and took them with you .....Right?
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Re: Rebar we foiund them during the BLM inspection in may

Postby allanon2 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:36 pm

Zona wrote:"We have found 24 inch pieces of rebar in vertical orientations.
Do you want to hit something like that at even 30 mph on the playa?"

You stopped, pulled them out, and took them with you .....Right?


but they were not in BLM's pictures. becuase they didn';t fit in the 1' by 1' grid they had. humm chaging rules again. Blm does that when the rules don't fit reality sometimes.
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Re: Rebar we foiund them during the BLM inspection in may

Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:38 pm

allanon2 wrote:
Zona wrote:"We have found 24 inch pieces of rebar in vertical orientations.
Do you want to hit something like that at even 30 mph on the playa?"

You stopped, pulled them out, and took them with you .....Right?


but they were not in BLM's pictures. becuase they didn';t fit in the 1' by 1' grid they had. humm chaging rules again. Blm does that when the rules don't fit reality sometimes.


You didn't answer the question.

Did you stop, pull out the rebar, and take them with you?
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Re: Rebar we foiund them during the BLM inspection in may

Postby talisen » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:39 pm

allanon2 wrote:Blm does that when the rules don't fit reality sometimes.


Hey Kettle, this is the pot calling- you are black!
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bye bye all

Postby allanon2 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:40 pm

you will all be happy i am now leaving.

i feel that i put out a black and white argument but no one seems to think so. was it so simple that peopel overlooked it? i have no idea

my comrads will probably continue but i am tired of the personal; bashing.

i guess this is what liberals/ (fill in your public affiliation here) do when confronted with some sad realities. yes my arguments were nto worded perfectly but if you read them escpaily the ones lately you can see what i am tryign to ask just to get people to think and make judgments for themselves. but all people do is flame and call me a troll. nope. i want peopel to see reality about BMORG and make judgments themselves

i hope to haver accomplished some fo that. sigh
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Re: bye bye all

Postby Zane5100 » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:41 pm

allanon2 wrote:you will all be happy i am now leaving.

i feel that i put out a black and white argument but no one seems to think so. was it so simple that peopel overlooked it? i have no idea

my comrads will probably continue but i am tired of the personal; bashing.

i guess this is what liberals/ (fill in your public affiliation here) do when confronted with some sad realities. yes my arguments were nto worded perfectly but if you read them escpaily the ones lately you can see what i am tryign to ask just to get people to think and make judgments for themselves. but all people do is flame and call me a troll. nope. i want peopel to see reality about BMORG and make judgments themselves

i hope to haver accomplished some fo that. sigh
ttyl
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Ya still haven't answered the question...
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Postby Blenderhead » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:43 pm

Zane:
"Uh, I have to go with stuart on this--I almost got into a knife fight (with big kitchen knives no less!) with a dude who had Down's.
Talking my way out of that was one the hardest things I'd ever done, as the dude was not in the mood to listen."



Maybe he didn't like being called "dude."


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Postby Tancorix » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:45 pm

He'll be back. I give him....24 hours. And he never did answer the question, and it's a very telling question.
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