Inexcusable waste of time and car emissions in and out

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Sail Man » Tue May 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Anybody else notice that Luap posts something to stir the pot up a bit, and thats all she wrote, no follow-up replies, constructive criticism, offers to vol with PG&E.

Lurker? Troll? :shock: Al Gore?!?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Tue May 12, 2009 2:48 pm

I'd say that most of the people who complain about the event's impact are somewhat trollish.


I have never got any of them to tell me, for instance, how much impact the event has in comparison to other vacation options. What is the carbon footprint of a flight to Hawai'i (and one home), staying in an air conditioned hotel, taking a helicoptor ride to see the volcanos, renting a car, eating at restaurants when the food is imported from whereever, usw?

It would be so much more interesting to talk about these things in an intelligent manner. Of course, her idea of a good vacation might be sitting in a hole, with no lighting, eating the flora growing from her belly button lint, in which case, she is right.
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Postby lilsrra » Tue May 12, 2009 4:08 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:I'd say that most of the people who complain about the event's impact are somewhat trollish.

I have never got any of them to tell me, for instance, how much impact the event has in comparison to other vacation options. What is the carbon footprint of a flight to Hawai'i (and one home), staying in an air conditioned hotel, taking a helicoptor ride to see the volcanos, renting a car, eating at restaurants when the food is imported from whereever, usw?

It would be so much more interesting to talk about these things in an intelligent manner. Of course, her idea of a good vacation might be sitting in a hole, with no lighting, eating the flora growing from her belly button lint, in which case, she is right.


Hmm, is the idea of the OP to bring up the fact that BM itself has some unnecessary carbon pitfalls, or to compare the carbon footprint of BM with other vacations? I believe the two are separate discussions and the OP was aimed at talking about purely the carbon footprint of the BM event irregardless of its comparative carbon footprint with other events, especially considering its theme in '07 (Green Man) and its overall expansion of earth-friendly technologies and associations.

That being said, why can we not bring up ideas to address the BM-specific shortfalls that may exist and have viable alternatives? My first year was 2008, and the group I went with all left on Tuesday early AM so we didn't experience Exodus problems at all. This year I'll be camping with the Blackrock Yearbook theme camp and am still deciding when I want to leave, so proposing new ideas to relieve some stress, gas consumption, and carbon emissions during Exodus seems fine to me.

And anyways, in my opinion a large portion of the BM experience is to participate. Participation is not only in enjoying the event itself, but also proposing new ideas to make the event better, safer, etc.

So...in my opinion, I think the idea of staging lines sounds like a good idea for all the reasons previously posted in this thread. My question to the naysayers are not to bash the people trying to come up with ideas, but rather to come up with their own ideas or at least reasons why the ideas being proposed are not viable solutions. Wouldn't that be a better case of "intelligent" discussion?

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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed May 13, 2009 11:05 am

Ah, but you simply don't understand the limitations. Exodus is undermanned. Whatever you may think of it, it is the best we can do within the limits of man-power (or woman-power), road capacity, and the whole "The Event's over and we're not a community anymore" mindset.


(And when you think that Sacramento, for instance, has two larger rush hours a day for 250 days a year, getting all involved about how "inexcusable" our one day is making yourself look foolish, rather than creating any environmental benefit. IMHO.)
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Postby EspressoDude » Wed May 13, 2009 11:21 am

A lot of the exodus traffic limiting is the access road onto the playa. The moderately sized rocks cause people to drive at about 2 mph with their overloaded vehicles.

A couple choices:
Drive like a bat out of hell so that your tires just kiss the top of the rocks on the way out;

drive a little slower so that you blow out your tires and support Bruno's for tire replacement;

Re-do the road with bigger rocks to keep whiners out.

Pave the road all the way to center camp and list BM as a destination resort with AAA.
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Postby Dr. Pyro » Wed May 13, 2009 4:16 pm

Admittedly, I come and go via RV, but this is what I've done the past couple of years and it seems to work great: Get one of the people who I've given a ride to who normally would never drive an RV and let them drive from Barbie Death Camp to Gerlach (Hiway 34 actually). I lie down and sleep like a baby for those two to four hours. When we get to the asphalt, I'm awoken, grab a Gatoraide, and I'm refreshed all of the way to Nixon for Indian Tacos. (NOTE: If you drive thru Nixon and don't get the Indian--or as they spell it NDN--Tacos, you are missing one of the more sublime pleasures of leaving Burning Man.) FWIW, that's what I would do.
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Postby motskyroonmatick » Wed May 13, 2009 6:00 pm

I have definitely heard of and I think participated once or twice in the staging lines. I was under the impression that the staging lanes run back from the gate and that they let cars go from those lines in groups. It is all the lane switchers that jam things up because it makes it so the whole line does not move forward in a pack.
I have an ambitious camp for one person so I leave on Tuesday after packing, securing and Mooping all day Monday. It has been 4 year since I experienced actual Exodus. I know 2006 was hell because the same 4 cars were next to my camp for at least 3+1/2 hours with out moving. It is true every year that Exodus needs help. Volunteer if you can.
The true limitation is the access road and the carrying capacity of the 2 lane road. Having the bottle neck before the pavement radically increases safety on the road to Gerlach. I believe the BLM takes this in to account by requiring only one entrance and exit. I read a very technical transportation science book to try to figure out a way to improve Exodus. What I learned pointed out the positive safety aspects of how it is now and that the maximum carrying capacity of any road is 45mph. That also happens to correspond generally with the speed where fuel economy is maximized and any speed above that reduces fuel economy and also carrying capacity. I think it is happenstance that the two are maximized at the same speed.
I think the reason for having the large rock on the access road is to work the tires of the incoming vehicles that way small rocks and other debris drop out of the tires and don't foul the playa with moop. This is something that is regularly done on construction sites to prevent large amounts of dirt being tracked out on to an improved roadway. Otherwise the BLM could drop a bunch of 3/4- on that large rock and smooth it right out.

My advice is to get creative with your perception of time like DR. Pyro or to leave at a time where the exit road has not had a historically high load. You could always ask an exodus person if there is a system in place and then do your best to stick to it so that it has a chance to work.

FYI I use roughly 100 gallons of road fuel (80 Diesel and 20 Gasoline) and maybe 10lbs of propane for the whole trip. That is my carbon foot print for 10 days.
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Postby Otisserie » Mon May 18, 2009 5:46 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:Admittedly, I come and go via RV, but this is what I've done the past couple of years and it seems to work great: Get one of the people who I've given a ride to who normally would never drive an RV and let them drive from Barbie Death Camp to Gerlach (Hiway 34 actually). I lie down and sleep like a baby for those two to four hours. When we get to the asphalt, I'm awoken, grab a Gatoraide, and I'm refreshed all of the way to Nixon for Indian Tacos. (NOTE: If you drive thru Nixon and don't get the Indian--or as they spell it NDN--Tacos, you are missing one of the more sublime pleasures of leaving Burning Man.) FWIW, that's what I would do.

I think you're on to something here: Exodus should encourage people to pair-up drivers and have one do the exodus and the other take over for the drive to Reno. They could put up a sign 100 yards before the exit that says "Switch Drivers Now". That way the driver who may be frustrated over exodus is now done, and a fresh driver is taking over for the 60 MPH part.
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Postby Isotopia » Mon May 18, 2009 7:47 pm

I've always thought the idea of Exodus 'proctors' was a good idea. Basically, they randomly pick a car out and ask 1/2 of the passengers to get out and swap with another randomly picked car. Set a time limit of say 30 minutes and then each back to their own respective vehicle.
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Postby mdmf007 » Tue May 19, 2009 8:02 am

Isotopia wrote:I've always thought the idea of Exodus 'proctors' was a good idea. Basically, they randomly pick a car out and ask 1/2 of the passengers to get out and swap with another randomly picked car. Set a time limit of say 30 minutes and then each back to their own respective vehicle.


Nothing like sitting in someone elses funk, and spreading it car to car like the valet on Seinfeld. Digging through my stuff, farting up my seats. No thanks!!!
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Postby Sail Man » Tue May 19, 2009 2:37 pm

mdmf007 wrote:
Isotopia wrote:I've always thought the idea of Exodus 'proctors' was a good idea. Basically, they randomly pick a car out and ask 1/2 of the passengers to get out and swap with another randomly picked car. Set a time limit of say 30 minutes and then each back to their own respective vehicle.


Nothing like sitting in someone elses funk, and spreading it car to car like the valet on Seinfeld. Digging through my stuff, farting up my seats. No thanks!!!


You forgot, Sticking boogers to the dashboard :lol:
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Postby LEVLHED » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:36 pm

boogers on the gear shifter is more effective
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Postby Liz Estrada » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:10 am

lilsrra wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:I'd say that most of the people who complain about the event's impact are somewhat trollish.

I have never got any of them to tell me, for instance, how much impact the event has in comparison to other vacation options. What is the carbon footprint of a flight to Hawai'i (and one home), staying in an air conditioned hotel, taking a helicoptor ride to see the volcanos, renting a car, eating at restaurants when the food is imported from whereever, usw?

It would be so much more interesting to talk about these things in an intelligent manner. Of course, her idea of a good vacation might be sitting in a hole, with no lighting, eating the flora growing from her belly button lint, in which case, she is right.


Hmm, is the idea of the OP to bring up the fact that BM itself has some unnecessary carbon pitfalls, or to compare the carbon footprint of BM with other vacations? I believe the two are separate discussions and the OP was aimed at talking about purely the carbon footprint of the BM event irregardless of its comparative carbon footprint with other events, especially considering its theme in '07 (Green Man) and its overall expansion of earth-friendly technologies and associations.

That being said, why can we not bring up ideas to address the BM-specific shortfalls that may exist and have viable alternatives? My first year was 2008, and the group I went with all left on Tuesday early AM so we didn't experience Exodus problems at all. This year I'll be camping with the Blackrock Yearbook theme camp and am still deciding when I want to leave, so proposing new ideas to relieve some stress, gas consumption, and carbon emissions during Exodus seems fine to me.

And anyways, in my opinion a large portion of the BM experience is to participate. Participation is not only in enjoying the event itself, but also proposing new ideas to make the event better, safer, etc.

So...in my opinion, I think the idea of staging lines sounds like a good idea for all the reasons previously posted in this thread. My question to the naysayers are not to bash the people trying to come up with ideas, but rather to come up with their own ideas or at least reasons why the ideas being proposed are not viable solutions. Wouldn't that be a better case of "intelligent" discussion?

- Sarah


Right, so shut the fuck up, and drink the fucking kool-aid, hippy.
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Postby trenton » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:38 am

It always blows me away when people talk about leaving a carbon footprint in relation to BM. I know for shure that what my parents taught me as a child growing up in Nevada not far from Gerlach.
COMMON SENCE IS NOT SO COMMON!
First off I have only seen a couple of post that actually make sence, let me give all you beautifull people an idea that WILL reduce that oh-so popular term carbon foot being GREEN. Why in this world of instant communication don't people use containers (rail ) to ship thier stuff to BM!
Let' say you live in that so called town of higher thinking called Seatlle, with say 500 people comming to BM. If you pool your stuff in containers instead of delapidated gas gusling RV's that are overloaded and dangerous not only to the occupants, but also those that wish to pass you to get by the trail of polution that you are smogging them out with! Make a rail head in Gerlach ( Has one already ) then move your stuff to the playa. You and all of your GREEN friends can ride AMTRAC to Reno and catch the bus to the wonderful event we call BM and have a great time the whole way. No or little driving less dust polution, You get the picture. I don't mean to offend anyone,but talk is cheap. I store my stuff locally so I dont have to go through the hassle and headache of driving a long way with such a heavy load.There are storage places that you can rent within a 1.5 hour drive of Gerlach that cost around $30 mo Subtract that from say... $500 in fuel and someone in your camp gets to go for very cheap! and it supports the local folks too. And for the person that said that people going to the desert in their Motorhomes smoke meth... get a clue you cannot afford a 100k rig if your on the pipe! Be nice people and enjoy each others company,thoughts and ideas on the playa and put into action those ones that you can. Make common sence common again. Thanks all you beautifull people and look foreward to seeing you on the playa this year! If you dissagree Email me and we will have a beer summit on the playa to hammer out a solution. PEACE
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Postby AntiM » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:49 am

Trenton, rail is limited. There still need to be vehicles and trucks to get the goods on the train. Then the container would need to be emptied and the goods distributed. You guessed it ... more trucks/vehicles. Plus a vehicle to get the folks from Reno to the playa and back with everyone on different schedules. Herding cats is logistically simpler.

(I'm married to a trucker and we HATE the Northwest's attitudes about carbon footprints. Rail does not get goods into a city center, to the distribution centers, to the warehouses, the stores. Nope, that would be TRUCKS. and there's no truckstops in Seattle, yet they want the truckers to abide by the strict DOT rules for hours of service and drive time. You can't always have both if you don't provide a safe area for truckers to park and rest.)

Local storage is not an option for those of us who USE our camp gear year round, who take our clothes home to wash them, who have art projects which would not magically regenerate in a storage shed in Empire, whose bikes need overhauls.

You think it would work? Organize it.
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Postby trenton » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:12 am

I will look into it, promise! I do drive my rig home (central valley CA) but our camp stores alot of the stuff in Fallon NV. Thus lighting the load that we, I have to bring to the Playa and I drive the smother and less milage road called hwy 88 ( its also prettier with several lakes to catch and eat wild trout ).Again saving fuel. Iam by no means a tree hugger, but I try to get my customers to use renewable products ( reclaimed hardwood floors that last a lifetime instead of a couple of years hence my lic plate NO2RUGS ) However my point is before someone slams somebody else for not beeing green.look for viable options. I agree with you, it's not easy . Just a thought to save some money and fuel so we can have more beer to drink and recycle cans, Ive read alot of your comments AntiM and I would like to meet you on the playa you seam like a cool person with that is not a couple of fries short of a happy meal! look me up at Spankys Wine Bar Thanks for your insight.
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Postby dvd-r » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:24 am

trenton wrote:I will look into it, promise! I do drive my rig home (central valley CA) but our camp stores alot of the stuff in Fallon NV. Thus lighting the load that we, I have to bring to the Playa and I drive the smother and less milage road called hwy 88 ( its also prettier with several lakes to catch and eat wild trout ).Again saving fuel. Iam by no means a tree hugger, but I try to get my customers to use renewable products ( reclaimed hardwood floors that last a lifetime instead of a couple of years hence my lic plate NO2RUGS ) However my point is before someone slams somebody else for not beeing green.look for viable options. I agree with you, it's not easy . Just a thought to save some money and fuel so we can have more beer to drink and recycle cans, Ive read alot of your comments AntiM and I would like to meet you on the playa you seam like a cool person with that is not a couple of fries short of a happy meal! look me up at Spankys Wine Bar Thanks for your insight.


I can't speel either but just sayin'

It is good taht you have camp stores and that you light them. I would try and breath deeply if you are on a smother road. I like to consider a new word, "iam" or "Iam". If you were beeing anything you should bee yourselve (sic). I have no idea if Anti-M has a seam, although Simon is a seam"stress". I can not wait to see your insight.

Ok, I failed english though out my school years, but sometimes horrable wretiing gets in the way of the massage.

just sayin
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Postby trenton » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:00 am

DVDr
Sorry my education in your mind is less than what you expect. However what little I do have ( 10th grade ) has taught me one thing that with 50k people there you can't make everyone happy or like you .
Just saying
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Postby AntiM » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:15 am

Trenton, level of education does not always equal knowledge. I got the "massage". LOL. Maybe I speak eplaya-ese.

I'm in Hushville, easy to find. Come and adopt some art. I reuse and repurpose a lot of my materials, so I guess that's green.

I think we each do what we can, without telling others what to do. Sharing what works for you is good, wild ideas are fun, but this isn't the same journey for everyone. Literally!
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Postby DaddyMassive » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:19 am

Nevermind Exodus, what's the cost to ones life and carbon footprint for all the time wasted on forums like this?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05 ... ternet.php
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Postby Igneouss » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:25 am

Strange thread.
I've read a fair amount about the history of BM. It was never conceived of as a 'green' event.

It is not now a 'green' event.

It is unlikely to ever be a 'green' event.

Can it be 'green-er'? sure. anything can.

BUT, the event is not 'green. Individuals can be green. camps can be green. The event will never be green.

The absolute best thing one can do to make BM green-er is to stay home.

Ranting about the lack of 'green-ness' is way off base.
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2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:32 pm

Igneouss wrote:Ranting about the lack of 'green-ness' is way off base.
Amen.

I got so tired of that for green man. (maybe it was a good thing that I spend 6 weeks flat on my back unable to log in.)

I believe in "green" (and in not quite so fuzzy a way as that comment might imply.) I also believe that you have to design your green systems (mechanical and social) to be easy. And you can't really use scolding to change behavior. Or say that burningman isn't green, without discussing how green other vacations are and are not.

What gets me is that I work in the environmental field. And people still don't know what does and does not go into the office compost collection.

Oh well.
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Postby dvd-r » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:06 pm

trenton wrote:DVDr
Sorry my education in your mind is less than what you expect. However what little I do have ( 10th grade ) has taught me one thing that with 50k people there you can't make everyone happy or like you .
Just saying


You got passion!

If you don't spell check your work, the message you have gets lost. I wasn't commenting on your education, lack of it, or grade that you made it to in high school.

I have read a few of your posts from another thread and your thoughts come across clearly, good job!
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Postby Absolut Jeenyus » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:40 am

chrispburn wrote:I am specifically reacting to 2007, Sunday afternoon/evening. The irony of the "Green Man" theme and the disorganized cluster fuck just completely blew me away and bummed me out. IT was the BM community at it's worst.


There is a a 5 story fire being burned at the center of the event. Theres an oil rig explosion blowing off how many thousands of gallons of propane and gasoline within seconds... And your talking about vehicle carbon emissions?

The cars have to be slowly released back on to the highway to ensure safety and a smooth exit once on the paved highway. I personally don't mind the exodus. Either I stay an extra day and wait till it dies down or I do exodus head on and dive right into it. I kind of enjoy it. Walking back and fourth between our cars, sharing watermelon, listening to music, have some last beers on the playa, complaining of the traffic. I get a kick out of it.
-AJ )'(
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Postby trenton » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:48 am

It seems that I fell into a can of worms! However some very valid points have been made. Just trying to be part of the solution not the problem. I believe that saftey on the roads should be first. That said I would like to comment on Absolut Jeenyus's post. Propane is probaly one of the best fuels to run cars and trucks on. It burns cleaner and does not carbon up a engine like gas or deisel. Also you can go 20k miles without oil changes if you use synthetc oil. It is a by-product of refining and is not used as much as it could.
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Postby Absolut Jeenyus » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:40 pm

Yes I know its cleaner. But its still burning. I think if your looking for the environmentalist event you should keep looking. This is not that. We are cleanER and more organized on cleaning our shit up... But that doesn't mean we are a clean event. All that garbage has to get dumped somewhere. I just thought it to be ridiculous to complain about carbon emissions at an event thats celebrates fire.
-AJ )'(
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Postby oscillator » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:30 am

Personally, I favor freight trains and hot air balloons.

Tho the prevailing winds can be a real bitch.

\osc
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Postby stormlight » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:47 pm

If you want to beat the lines and you're going east hit Jungo Rd after the temple burns and finish your sleep in Winamucca (Walmart if you have RV). Need fairly good tires.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:31 pm

They don't let you exit east, only through the long, long line.
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Postby stormlight » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Well, last year we hopped in the truck right after temple burn, took half hour, maybe a little more but not much, to get to Jungo turn off and no one else on that road except us and friends in another vehicle. We came that way so we knew the way. Road is unpaved, a little rough but not bad. Only works if your destination is east 80.
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