Will the Org respond to the 2.0 controversy?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Dork » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:19 pm

DaBomb wrote:Here's the thing:

I think this is a step in the right direction. Burning Man was featured in B2.0 it is a business that is operating in a new and innovative fashion. Maybe not as radically new as it would like to believe, but nevertheless, you gotta admit it's different.

I think we all can agree that BM the event changes every year...as it should. Well, likewise I commend the growth of the LLC. It has been a long time coming.

I also think that LH's purported presence here on ePlaya (if it is in fact true) is a positive result of all the controversy. I support this move and hope that it develops and flourish. I am loathe to think that the archaic Corporation v. the Community business model (i.e. Walmart) is how BM will continue to operate. If it does, then I really do believe the sky will fall (again...).

When new things get introduced to say the Mac community (!) Steve Jobs puts on a show and presents it to the world.

Even our President (be that as he may) makes a State of the Union Address every year. Say what you want about the messenger, but he does deliver a message! (ook! ook!)

If LH did this, I think this bumpy ride could have been averted, IMHO.

My two cents. Your mileage may vary.

And don't forget to DRINK!


Steve Jobs uses press conferences as a way to get millions of dollar in free advertising. It's funny that you should mention Apple - they're one of the more secretive companies out there. They spend years working on products and only at the very end do they let any information out. That information is highly controlled. The president and his various talking heads use the media to spread their spin, not to have any sort of dialogue or provide insight. I'll wait to see what Larry posts, but I'm not sure what he could have said that would make me feel good about what's happening or what was in the article.

I don't agree at all with the notion, which several people have posted here, that because Burning Man changes as it gets bigger that any change is good. The only necessary changes have been in increasing the infrastructure to support the increased number of people, and in dealing with new political and logistical challenges as they come along. All other changes such as how they deal with the media, how much ticket money is diverted to artists and other projects, etc have been voluntary and I don't see a problem with speaking our minds when we disagree with those decisions.

BMORG is, in essence, our local government. It lacks voting and the transparency of a typical government so our only options are to complain or move. I'm not ready to move.
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:35 pm

The Bmorg is a Monarchy!

The final say is in the control of one person now and whatever direction that person wish to head to is up to him alone.

So do a as Bob says, buy your ticket and make your way thought the corral and use the potapotties in a responsible way.

Then Go Home Now!

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Postby Bob » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:37 pm

Given the amount of software & hardware made obsolete each time Jobs announces an "upgrade", is Apple a good or bad analogy?
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Postby DaBomb » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:01 pm

Isotopia wrote:If I were the man I'd just let people keep on with their fucking whining about the 2.0 article. There're better things to be doing than having to salve the wounds or wipe away the tears of your little devotees.


Image


Show 121 (Weekend Edition): Counterculture, Burning Man & Commerce with Larry Harvey

Burning Man big guy Larry Harvey joins RU Sirius to discuss controversies over commercial organizations that have been invited to participate in a Burning Man display this year.

CLICK HERE TO LISTEN => http://www.rusiriusradio.com/2007/07/27/show-121-weekend-edition-counterculture-burning-man-commerce-with-larry-harvey

Tell BURNcast what you think!

CLICK HERE TO LEAVE A MESSAGE => http://www.mychingo.com/recorder/record_app_JS.asp?code=4897
(microphone required).

Or call the BURNcast hotline at 775-363-5861
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Postby actiongrl » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:42 pm

I don't see a problem with speaking our minds when we disagree with those decisions.


Me, neither!
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Postby Archantael » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:05 am

That was an interesting interview to put it mildly.

Larry Harvey was unprepared for the interview though, he didn't even have a copy of the Business 2.0 article that as he admitted is what really launched this thing into the stratosphere...he had written up some stuff on this months back that sailed under the radar.

But he managed to make do without it and when he explained the makeup of the 30 exhibitors in the pavilion again along with his dinosaur comments about how big corporations wouldn't pick this up even as a viral marketing campaign.... I started to feel like they hadn't sold out on us after all. The people that are there at the pavilion are truly doing this in the spirit of gifting to the community or so it seems. That remains to be seen...if the truth on the ground is anything different than what Mr. Harvey has suggested, virtual hostility will cross over to real hostility pretty quickly and it will reverberate well beyond the playa.....

Anyway moving on, he touched on something else...perhaps the eplaya could open a thread up for dicussing if artists have the right to take BM grant funded art and take it to places like Coachilla and make money from it. Personally I have no problem with it...those events are not BM with it's expectations of no major commerce and the effort to build a temporary community.

The interview left me feeling slightly better but I still have some concerns.
1: He failed to address Google's participation in the event. IMHO: Major oversight.
2: I still think it wasn't right that he skipped the eplaya and a link to it from the main site to address the controversy, instead we get an AG cross-post over on Tribe? If the hat made an effort to use this board and became a little more familiar with what his ORG is paying for, he might be inclined to shift some priorities around and give the eplaya more resources and more visibility.
3: While the staff is busy, they seriously need a PR person. Sheesh, send your leader out to do an interview without having reference materials and resources? Granted this is a minor controversy but who knows....the next issue the staff faces may not be and they could take this opportunity to be ready for it.

And last but not least, critiques aside, thank you Larry for taking the time to speak out on the controversy. Incomplete info beats no info. </soapbox>
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Postby Token » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:44 am

Archantael wrote:1: He failed to address Google's participation in the event. IMHO: Major oversight.


Larry and AG did a nice long interview with KPFA in August of 2006 where the Google thing was introduced. If you have 3 hours to burn it is a nice listen.

http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=15621

I'm just bummed out that the whole http://bmearth.burningman.com site was left to rot ever since then, with no new content. Then Tom Price has fly-by animations of all the new stuff already done in some hidden lab out there all in Google Earth.

WAAAAAAA! We don't get to play with the cool toys with the big boys!!! :)
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Will the (drink) Org respond to the 2.0 controversy?

Postby larry » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:36 pm

The following post was intended as a response to an entry in the blog of Robert Kozinets entitled, Burning Man’s Sold Out! (http://kozinets.net/archives/25). I think my mini-essay may have overburdened his website. It wasn’t accepted, so I decided to post it here. You see, we really do care about the ePlayans!

Larry

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your thoughtful essay. Thanks also for the following statement, “I’ve been researching and writing about Burning Man with the permission of great people like Larry Harvey, Marian Goodell, Jim Graham, Lee Gilmore, and Jess Bobier for almost a decade (my first burn was 1999). I have never heard them talk about Burning Man as a brand.â€
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Re: Will the (drink) Org respond to the 2.0 controversy?

Postby helitack » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:59 pm

[quote="larry"]The following post was intended as a response to an entry in the blog of Robert Kozinets entitled, Burning Man’s Sold Out! (http://kozinets.net/archives/25). I think my mini-essay may have overburdened his website. It wasn’t accepted, so I decided to post it here. You see, we really do care about the ePlayans!

Larry

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your thoughtful essay. Thanks also for the following statement, “I’ve been researching and writing about Burning Man with the permission of great people like Larry Harvey, Marian Goodell, Jim Graham, Lee Gilmore, and Jess Bobier for almost a decade (my first burn was 1999). I have never heard them talk about Burning Man as a brand.â€
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Postby EvilDustBooger » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:07 pm

Welcome Home Larry!
I`m only slightly tiffed that you posted on Eplaya only after
being shunned from "another" site. :wink:
But I`m grateful that you posted the clarifications and insights.
Green Man sounds like a noble mission after reading your (gasp) spin on it. It was good to hear from your lips that there were misunderstandings/lost translations in the article in regards to statements about branding, customers/owners et al

Thanks for scratching the scientists.

It will be interesting to see the results.
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Postby Zulegoona » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:16 pm

Thankyou Larry
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Postby DaBomb » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:26 pm

Thank you, Larry.

I am positively quite punch drunk giddy from this post.

::hiccup::

I do have some questions, but am wondering if this the place to ask them.

Somebody (AG? LH?) advise.
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Postby capjbadger » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:31 pm

Well I'll be... *chuckle*

Welcome Larry, and thank you. :)

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Postby helitack » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:32 pm

DaBomb wrote:Thank you, Larry.

I am positively quite punch drunk giddy from this post.

::hiccup::

I do have some questions, but am wondering if this the place to ask them.

Somebody (AG? LH?) advise.


Ask em....
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Postby Zulegoona » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:48 pm

Gee now I’m wondering if Chai or DaBomb will start a
[b]“ is Larry Harvey turning burning man into a cult of personality threadâ€
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Postby Isotopia » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:50 pm

Welcome Home Larry!


You should be kicked like a dog for posting that.
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Postby Archantael » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:59 pm

Hmmm.....is anyone missing any socks?
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Postby DaBomb » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:03 pm

helitack wrote:
DaBomb wrote:Thank you, Larry.

I am positively quite punch drunk giddy from this post.

::hiccup::

I do have some questions, but am wondering if this the place to ask them.

Somebody (AG? LH?) advise.


Ask em....


I have made some mistakes in the past and do not wish to repeat them.

What is the protocol here?
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Postby Archantael » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:10 pm

This ain't Tribe, ask those questions!

Seriously I'm glad to see LH on here and I happened to like the reply. But it's going to be interesting to see what the reality is when we hit the playa and see the pavilion for ourselves. I also appreciated the clarification on Google's involvement.
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Postby MozyBonz » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:14 pm

Psssst~~ Zule!……. Who is this Larry guy and why are people crouching down like that?
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:31 pm

What we HAD here was a "fail-yuh to Cah-mun-i-cate." 8)

Thank you Larry for very articulately clearing the smoke left-over from the Business 2.0 stinkbomb. I hope the lines of communication between ePlaya and the BMorg will remain operational throughout the year and not just in time of perceived crisis. (It helps sedate us church-ladies.)

Just take ths controversy as an indication of how much a whole lot of people value something you created not too long ago.

See ya soon


BTW, Im wondering if you could gift me a ticket, see I had a really bad year this year and .....
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Postby bmix » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:40 pm

bmix wrote:That's ok, for me at least. I never really expected anyone in an official position to post here.


Never have I been more tickled to eat my own words (they weren't bad with a little hot sauce, and some onion rings on the side).

So often in modern life, we're encouraged to believe in things... relationships, religions, political movements... and we buy in, and really believe in these things, only to find out at one point or another that it was all just a smokescreen, designed to lure us in and take something from us. I was hoping against hope that this pattern would not extend all the way to Black Rock City.

I believe in Burning Man very, very, strongly, and it's been a boon in my life in many ways. It's something I, and evidently many others, are highly protective of and sensitive about. I didn't want to just aimlessly bitch about whatever was going on, I wanted to hear the other side, to maybe put the two pieces together and get some truth. And now it is done.

You, sir, by way of this post, have completed the picture for me, and by doing so have reaffirmed my belief in that little patch of no-man's-land. I now have a feeling this is gonna be The Best Burn Ever(tm) and I simply can't thank you enough. See you at the Burn.

And speaking of commercialism, here's a Shameless Plug: Larry, swing by the Tikiplex 12. We'll be showing bad movies and drinking good rum. We may even do requests for certain Men Wearing Hats... 8)
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Postby DaBomb » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:52 pm

4FS people, I just got off the phone with one of my campmates and got SCOLDED for doing what I've been doing for years on Tribe. I don't want to repeat the mistakes I've made there.

larry wrote:"This talk of deviltry...."


I am reminded of Hell Co in that remark. :twisted:


Here's some questions:

Regarding the invitation of corporate guests to participate (specifically in this year's Green Man theme), is this a fundamental change to the Project's way of operating or is it a one-off?

Are corporate guests going to now be invited in subsequent years?

If the idea is "let's wait and see what happens", what needs to take place from the Project's perspective before a decision is reached?
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Postby K-mom » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:52 pm

Hey guys sorry I'm late, what'd I miss?


This is the free ticket lineup, right?
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Postby actiongrl » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:08 pm

D'Bomb, my take on your questions is that in all of this I've never once heard anyone involved in this Pavilion talk about using this "invitation" tool in future years. I don't know the answer and can't speak for Larry, but my educated guess is that it's an experiment that is quite specific to this year's theme, and indeed any considerations for future years will have to be weighed once we see how this one goes. My personal thought is that it's just so specific to this theme that it's hard to imagine how else it might be used or applied...and you'll still see our media team chasing down any corporate presence that doesn't come in under this particular regimented aegis, so I think you're seeing a very mediated exception to our rules, and not a new rule outright.
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Postby DaBomb » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:26 pm

Thanks, AG.
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:26 pm

bmix wrote:I now have a feeling this is gonna be The Best Burn Ever(tm) and I simply can't thank you enough. See you at the Burn.


Well said bmix......... it will be once again.......


and who was that dude in the hat that that just walked by......... 8)
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:50 pm

Archantael wrote:Hmmm.....is anyone missing any socks?


its him.

and i appreciate that so far no one is degrading the discussion to something personal. no one is saying you cant disagree, but its important to keep it civil enough for the sake of everyone else that might be interested. we've all seen what happens when a board degrades to the point where more serious minded discussions are impossible.

so i personally thank all of you.
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Postby sputnik » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:12 pm

Thanks for finally weighing in here on the ePlaya Larry.

(and yes, it really was him)
It's going to be alright.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:51 pm

(I guess the answer to the OP is, "Yes, they will")

A well written response, and a powerful argument as well. Thanks.
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