Business 2.0 Article

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby unjonharley » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:25 am

Mike,,

It's a pun sun.. I say it a pun, boy are you listening to me?

"Foghorn Leghorn"
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Postby Archantael » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:36 am

The only reason that Tribe has the largest community is IMHO because the ORG let this place go down the tubes with no support, be that financial or technical. It seems rather strange that they've got this awesome communications tool sitting there on their own servers under their full control and yet it sits here...languishing. The ORG is great at promotion and what they don't know they can tap from their volunteers. In short with minimal effort they could literally transform this place...and make it the defacto communications tool and discussion board that the event deserves.

The question is do they want to efficently use their resources or is it easier to just send AG over to Tribe, toss out some info and say we did what we had to do?
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:37 am

It's a pun


Your statement was subtly tongue in cheek, but it mirrors others apparent honest opinions that because they feel eplaya has better qualities and is owned by the llc that it should be the way to communicate with the people. I was explaining to all who feel that way, that what is actually happening may be a much more practical approach when dealing with limited resources.

I just don't see why anyone would get their panties in a bunch over that.
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:41 am

In short with minimal effort they could literally transform this place...and make it the defacto communications tool and discussion board that the event deserves.


How do you propose they could do that? Myspace it out like tribe? They could do that, but is that the point of the event and your ticket money? Do you want the money you pay for a ticket to pay for that bandwidth, servers, support, etc?
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Postby Archantael » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:51 am

Parts of the ticket money should be going to it and if it isn't then I feel it should. As for any interface questions MySpace is dead or will be in less than a year, the kids are moving in droves elsewhere. So no...that's not the interface to use. Heck I'd settle for a cleanup and streamline of what we have as long as they truly use it and promote the heck out of it.
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:03 am

If myspacers go elsewhere, they are going to the same types of social networking places like tribe, facebook and not the plain forum structure like we have here. I personally want my ticket money going elsewhere. I'm not paying for a social networking site, I'm paying for an event. I don't think it's that people don't know about e-playa, because most seem to have come here first, they leave eplaya to network with friends, post pictures, blog, make their own groups etc.
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Postby Archantael » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:34 am

MikeVDS wrote:I'm not paying for a social networking site, I'm paying for an event.


Ok, have it your way! Let's strip out the value and contributions of the eplaya to the event. First thing to go as I start thinking about it: Apokiliptika. That theme camp got kickstarted here. And on it goes from there...how many people first heard of Bob Stahl's playa structures page from here? And what about the calls to action like the PortaPottie efforts that RobbiDobbs has been working on? Many of the successful ideas for that were tossed around and fine tuned here...and without the success of that project there wouldn't be no event. So...think about it...you're not paying for a social networking site, you are paying for a valuable resource to the event. </soapbox>
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Postby Bob » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:05 am

The org already hires all kinds of contractors & vendors for dust control, potable water, plumbers, heavy equipment, operators, lumber, hardware, temporary housing, shitters, shade, medical, fire, golf carts, power, sand, etc. Yes, they truck sand to the desert, upwards of 40 tons I think.

Re: putting up the perimeter fence, for relative cost figure a crew of half a dozen, already trained & acclimated, with a truck-mounted powered post driver working a long couple of days, versus a hundred volunteers you have to start contacting in January, then feeding & housing & training on the job for a week in Gerlach. The org has used fence contractors in the past on the playa & their ranch north of Gerlach. They also bussed day laborers up from Reno in 1999 when cleanup extended into October & November.

Maybe you church ladies want them to wait until volunteers show up -- but you also seem to want your gigantic temples & shit, so they subcontract all that to funded artists. And all of a sudden you're shocked that Burning Man is a business that deals with other businesses?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby Dork » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:09 am

Archantael wrote:In short with minimal effort they could literally transform this place...and make it the defacto communications tool and discussion board that the event deserves.

First of all, I'm not sure what your idea of "minimal effort" is. Did you have a particular piece of off the shelf software in mind? Because the org really isn't set up for big custom development projects. Copying tribe is not exactly something you could knock out in a couple of weeks. Also, no matter how good we make it, not everyone is going to want to visit any site that's just about Burning Man. One of Tribe's main benefits is all of the other completely unrelated subjects.

If you DO know of something off the shelf that you think would dramatically improve eplaya or be a worthy replacement, please feel free to propose it.
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:12 am

Let's strip out the value and contributions of the eplaya to the event.


Eplaya is fine and good. It's ridiculously cheap to manage a forum, especially if you already have a domain and servers and volunteer moderators. Eplaya as a forum will never attract the numbers that tribe or other social networking sites can. If you want a social networking site, you'd have to put serious money into a project like that. You can't have it both ways. You want lots of people here, but you want to keep it the same? It just doesn't work that way. You have to give people what they want if you want them to hang out. Tribe does that.
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:15 am

So...think about it...you're not paying for a social networking site, you are paying for a valuable resource to the event.


I want a free hamburger stand too.

I want public showers.

I want bus rides from reno.

...

Get the point?
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:20 am

Damn I got this hornet's nest dead on with me old sling shot.. It has been slow around here huh?

I love it when a plan comes togeather..

What the h was that guys name on A Team?
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Postby Bob » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:30 am

unjonharley wrote:What the h was that guys name on A Team?


Hannibal? He's dead, Jim.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000577/
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby Archantael » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:57 am

The eplaya admin team will laugh but I'm still a fan of phpBB, when it's got competent, stable, long term administration it can work very well even under high traffic and it's required minimal maintenance over the past 2 1/2 years the team I work with has run it.

And it's obvious that the event I thought I knew having attended for 6 years is much more involved than I ever thought....and in short I really shouldn't say anything about it because I don't have a full set of facts to make informed decisions with...it doesn't help when that info is spread all over the place and mixed with a healthy dose of FUD...but it is what it is. I've made a public jackass out of myself...again, trying to chase something i believed in...and it was built on flawed facts. With apologies to all offended, I'll try and shut up and move on.

(One last thing. Badger was right about this debate)
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Postby Bob » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:25 am

The eplaya is ass, but bm.tribe.net is assX1000.

Check out the older iterations of the eplaya at archive.org --
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://bbs.burningman.com

They actually did have a discussion area titled
Contact the Burning Man Staff
back in 1998-9, but it only lasted a year.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby helitack » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:42 pm

Archantael wrote:
MikeVDS wrote:I'm not paying for a social networking site, I'm paying for an event.


Ok, have it your way! Let's strip out the value and contributions of the eplaya to the event. First thing to go as I start thinking about it: Apokiliptika. That theme camp got kickstarted here. And on it goes from there.. . </soapbox>


Hmmm...the beginning here:
viewtopic.php?t=7815
but, the idea was born in three twisted individuals minds...
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interesting first year

Postby porterico » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:24 pm

interesting to attend my first burning man amid this ideologic controversy / rift... maybe a new religion will have to split off or something...

Seems pretty cool to me that I'll be able to have a look at enviro gadgets with a bunch of freaks. I'm kind of a sustainabilty freak and have had green ideas turning in my head long before the word "sustainability" was heard on the news every day, or people were buying carbon offsets for their plane ticket. Yawn... environmentalism is practically a forgone conclusion... the government and the man just lag sadly behind.

I would bet that a majority of burners are kind of on the same page with me there. Tend to be more tree huggerish than environmental disasters. Tend to actually give a shit about the prospect of stepping on a little desert flower when sidestepping was an option.

my opinion is that I think much more will be gained by these companies and the community at large eventually than just a few sales of solar panels... a lot of the technology leaps have already been made for a really environmentally sound future, it is more about implementation now... is it not?... getting other people off their asses... or setting a good example.

When I heard the theme was "Green Man" the first thing I thought of was... shit this is like a perfect reason for me to start "sustainability" conversations with people and see where they go.

these types of discussions are going to take place this year, it is not just going to be a bunch of people whining about corporate sponsors, it will be a shitload of people doing whatever they want to do, but people like me will probably at least try to engage with others that are interested on this whole green topic... especially around the pavilllion (seems logical eh?)

Whenever there is a disadvantage there lies inside it an advantage, I'm not sure what that advantage is for anyone except me, but it was easy for me to see.

I do know that I've sat here and read 11 pages of the controversy that has been unfolding over the last 2.5 weeks or so, so I guess I've updated myself on "what is going on"... now I'm pretty ambivilent about how it will all pan out.

I will say though as well that the donkey fucking videos, and the monkey fucking a donkey on a pile of burning tires while tipping over toxic waste barrells... made me laugh my fucking ass off...
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Re: interesting first year

Postby Bob » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:35 pm

porterico wrote:....I would bet that a majority of burners are kind of on the same page with me there. Tend to be more tree huggerish than environmental disasters.....


How comfortable do you feel making such assumptions?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Re: interesting first year

Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:50 pm

porterico wrote:interesting to attend my first burning man amid this ideologic controversy / rift... maybe a new religion will have to split off or something...

Seems pretty cool to me that I'll be able to have a look at enviro gadgets with a bunch of freaks. I'm kind of a sustainabilty freak and have had green ideas turning in my head long before the word "sustainability" was heard on the news every day, or people were buying carbon offsets for their plane ticket. Yawn... environmentalism is practically a forgone conclusion... the government and the man just lag sadly behind.

I would bet that a majority of burners are kind of on the same page with me there. Tend to be more tree huggerish than environmental disasters. Tend to actually give a shit about the prospect of stepping on a little desert flower when sidestepping was an option.

my opinion is that I think much more will be gained by these companies and the community at large eventually than just a few sales of solar panels... a lot of the technology leaps have already been made for a really environmentally sound future, it is more about implementation now... is it not?... getting other people off their asses... or setting a good example.

When I heard the theme was "Green Man" the first thing I thought of was... shit this is like a perfect reason for me to start "sustainability" conversations with people and see where they go.

these types of discussions are going to take place this year, it is not just going to be a bunch of people whining about corporate sponsors, it will be a shitload of people doing whatever they want to do, but people like me will probably at least try to engage with others that are interested on this whole green topic... especially around the pavilllion (seems logical eh?)

Whenever there is a disadvantage there lies inside it an advantage, I'm not sure what that advantage is for anyone except me, but it was easy for me to see.

I do know that I've sat here and read 11 pages of the controversy that has been unfolding over the last 2.5 weeks or so, so I guess I've updated myself on "what is going on"... now I'm pretty ambivilent about how it will all pan out.

I will say though as well that the donkey fucking videos, and the monkey fucking a donkey on a pile of burning tires while tipping over toxic waste barrells... made me laugh my fucking ass off...


Like that caveman commercial:

Errh, What?
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:11 pm

...the controversy was better last year...
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
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Nasty Santas and Gifting

Postby EricMagic » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:46 am

Hey Sounds Great! Hear me out please.

I presume that Tech Pavillion will not mind the following:

    Visits from the Nasty Santas

    Gifiting me and my friends a whole lot of stuff

    Quality Inspections by Various Speciality Camps / Cliques

    LEO Visits looking for any illegal imported items or illegal contriband.



Since the Tech Pavilion is new this Year, let all of us Participant Burners, OLd and New, make sure we give them SPECIAL ATTENTION.

Long Live the Wise Old Spirit of BMan and INcreased, True GREEN, Deep Penetrating Participation!

Remember the DaDa Movement!
<>
Relax, Be Bold, Dream, Live Large, Elevate
<>
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Bring a coat. A warm coat.

Postby joel the ornery » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:04 am

jacktrash wrote:My predictions this year-

The night will become light, then dark, then light again, as Quetzalcoatl devours the moon...

Pepsi will pass out 42,000 bottles of Vitamin Water, free. You will get a grab bag from Sprint at the gate, given by the gatekeepers, already filled with some swag ($2 gift card from Starbucks, $5 gift card for iTunes, a blinky light of the Ford logo, etc etc)

So many fucking skywriters...Jesus now uses them exclusively for sending messages to his chosen on the playa.

I had a dream about trees on the playa, so you will see many trees. 6 of them will be really cool, and 4 of them will be electric shock trees that scream and grab you.

This is the year someone actually shoots a bunny during the Bunny parade, folks rejoice, bunnies never return to the playa.

You will hear so much shit about the environment, that you will hope that an enormous fiery comet comes Sat. night and blows us to bits (to
make way for a galactic highway). You will hate Al Gore, Leo DiCaprio, and all the other fucking celebrities you will see out there (I am looking at you, Cameron Diaz). Trust me, they are coming, and it will be really weird watching Woody Harrelson walk through center camp. You will be muttering "Fuck your'green'...fuck your'green'" over and over. Someone is going to bring an actual polar bear for rides and photo ops.

This is the year Spectators outnumber Particpants, so make it a good show everyone!!! Places people, you are onstage in five minutes!!!

Transformers are real, and they have been fitted with Tesla coils for your evening entertainment this year.

You will recognize 17.3 people, and remember 5 names, 3 of them real-world names, not their playa names.

Friday night will not be as good as Thursday night, because you are hanging out with some new folks that need to piss a lot.

1386 people will misplace their cameras.

172 couples will break up on the playa, 493 couples will meet and consummate on the playa...out of these, 58 of these couples will get married in real life within two years. 84 children will be conceived between Friday and Sunday.

You will end up having one of the pivotal conversations of your life 14 meters from a porta-potty, around 2:38am, on Friday night.

After it rains Weds. and Sunday, you will think to yourself, "Maybe next year I will go to Machu Picchu instead."

You will work on one part of your costume for an extremely inordinate amount of time, only to have it end up looking really sucky after it was smashed in your luggage by the airport TSA guy, who showed it to another TSA guy, who laughed, said you were "a fag", and placed it
the wrong side up back in your suitcase. Another spiritual exercise in the futility of efforts and "letting go".

You will catch yourself saying "This has got to be the most wonderful place I could be right now on this whole planet...", then you will immediately wonder why you have not shit in three days.

6,804 of you who attend this year will never,ever come back to the playa, for some reason or another.

Bring a coat. A warm coat.

----end of transmission---

Jack Trash
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:26 am

ya learn something new every day....didn't know Tribe was THE place to be to discuss Burning Man. I find ePlaya much easier to navigate, it doesn't have obnoxious adverts, and this whole "Friends" crap on Tribe reminds me of the high school rush to have as many people as possible sign your yearbook. But, then, I am over 30.
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Postby DaBomb » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:35 am

Teo del Fuego wrote:ya learn something new every day....didn't know Tribe was THE place to be to discuss Burning Man. I find ePlaya much easier to navigate, it doesn't have obnoxious adverts, and this whole "Friends" crap on Tribe reminds me of the high school rush to have as many people as possible sign your yearbook. But, then, I am over 30.



I like ePlaya because it works. It bummed me out that it crashed or (whatever the tech term is a few years ago) and a new account needed to be created. The thing about ePlaya is that everybody is on Tribe, so that's a bummer.

Tribe is good, but there are a lot of trolls. But then again, at least it's not Friendster, 4fs. But lately Tribe hasn't been very stable which makes me wonder what the future is for it.

I asked Mark Pincus what the sale of Tribe to Cisco meant (and if you all care to listen, there's an interview I did with him a few months back http://www.burncast.net ). In it he said he still retained the license to the social network and he also said back in May that they were about to see themselves out of the red.

It would be nice to mashup Tribe's features with ePlaya's community (drink!) because I think -- as somebody said -- most newbies come to ePlaya. It baffles me that Tribe has the biggest demographic of Burners though. Does anybody have a clue as to why?
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Postby Finnegan » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:44 am

everybody is on Tribe


I’m not. Never touch the stuff.
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Postby actiongrl » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:17 am

D'you mean the real Tribe mashing up with the real ePlaya, or a hypothetical mixing of the two?

If the former, where do you put the ads? If the latter, what would that look like? (Just for curiosity's sake.)

I confess: I'm over 35 and I have Tribed pretty much since day one, and not, as it has been suggested, just because "it's a focus group" or because it's part of my job; I use it the way other users do, and I enjoy my share of other Tribing there, not just in Burning Man topics. (Dude, I mean, there's a "Dark Crystal" tribe....c'mon.)

I do, however, despise MySpace and have received so many invites to new places (Facebook, etc.) that I've become inured to them and hardly ever bother to even go take a look. Saturation, anyone?
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Postby DaBomb » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:56 am

actiongrl wrote:D'you mean the real Tribe mashing up with the real ePlaya, or a hypothetical mixing of the two?



Huh, I just tossed it out there as an idea. If I had to flesh it out, maybe it would be a mashup of Tribe in that I look and feel of it (analogy: nice car) and the vibe and feel of ePlaya (analogy: friends and community).

Ads? What about a mashup between fake ads and fake businesses (i.e. Piss Clear) and a real burner based business like...I dunno...Utilikilt, Tribe, Cool Neon, and even smaller businesses. I think that might be fun. If BM is a community, can't we market our products to folks within our community? It's already happening on Tribe (i.e. Ilaniowear, Lulievision).

I think this concept of digital communities is real and I think it parallels actual communities. I've been invited to social networks that are regional (i.e. East Coast) but decline because, well I don't live there.

I also think this notion of social networks can exhibit a "club" feel. "What's the coolest social network this week? Where should I be to show I'm really cool?" That kinda thing.

I'm rambling...somebody take the thread....
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Postby Dork » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:11 am

Ads? What about a mashup between fake ads and fake businesses (i.e. Piss Clear) and a real burner based business like...I dunno...Utilikilt, Tribe, Cool Neon, and even smaller businesses. I think that might be fun. If BM is a community, can't we market our products to folks within our community? It's already happening on Tribe (i.e. Ilaniowear, Lulievision).

We did that for April Fools day. A few people got REALLY pissed.

viewtopic.php?t=19070
viewtopic.php?t=19072
viewtopic.php?t=19082

Perhaps "what eplaya should be" needs its own thread.
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Postby Archantael » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:18 am

Dork wrote:
Perhaps "what eplaya should be" needs its own thread.


How about placing it in a popular section instead of way down at the bottom like where case studies is...and kinda off the beaten path?
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P.S.

Postby DaBomb » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:20 am

Actiongrl:

I noticed the changes to the Media Page the other night.

Thanks for making those changes (or to the appropriate parties that made those changes).

Community! Drink!
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