Business 2.0 Article

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby gyre » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:40 am

Then a clear position might help.
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Postby MozyBonz » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:43 am

gyre wrote:Then a clear position might help.



yep!
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Here's my questions...

Postby Catblack » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:19 pm

What I've been wondering and one thing I haven't seen in this thread at all is just WHO the Org is planning on using to move/install this half million dollars worth of solar panels in Gerlach post-event?

Are they going to be hooked up at the work ranch or in Gerlach? Both?

Do city/county codes require a licensed (paid) electrician to hook them up?
If so, how is it fair to plan on paying an electrician and not the folks who are going to have to load them up? The Borg most likely is paying for the truck and the driver...

And even if installation waits for a work weekend next year, that's still going to use unpaid, volunteer labor that benefits... Gerlach? Isn't goodwill with the residents in Gerlach already built up enough by now? Will it be after these panels get put up?

And where in Gerlach are they going? Could the LLC provide us with the location?
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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:23 pm

Burp! wrote:Just adding my thoughts to a long thread. I think this is the opening of the door we all have feared. They say no logos and marketing are to be done, but when someone says "Where do I get me one of those?" I really doubt there won't be sales pitch ready. Make no mistake there is an agenda here and that is what I find baffling.

One Nay vote here.

T.


As I've read it, the product will be given over to the Org and DPW (or similar) will build whatever the final product is to be. I also seem to remember that it will be just up and running... nobody hanging around and giving a pitch.

And we do need a step back and deep breath.

Catblack...

I understand it to again be volunteer labor all the way, not sure of the local code issues, etc. And I find it really eerie to see that you joined four days after I did. Like I'm being stalked by alter ego that I didn't know I had.

Are you the evil twin, or is that me?
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Postby MozyBonz » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:52 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:
Burp! wrote:Just adding my thoughts to a long thread. I think this is the opening of the door we all have feared. They say no logos and marketing are to be done, but when someone says "Where do I get me one of those?" I really doubt there won't be sales pitch ready. Make no mistake there is an agenda here and that is what I find baffling.

One Nay vote here.

T.


As I've read it, the product will be given over to the Org and DPW (or similar) will build whatever the final product is to be. I also seem to remember that it will be just up and running... nobody hanging around and giving a pitch.

And we do need a step back and deep breath.

Catblack...

I understand it to again be volunteer labor all the way, not sure of the local code issues, etc. And I find it really eerie to see that you joined four days after I did. Like I'm being stalked by alter ego that I didn't know I had.

Are you the evil twin, or is that me?



I wasn’t going to say anything but since you brought it up….... :roll:
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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:17 pm

You'll note the name is both in English and reversed. Like a Bizarro-LeChat.
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To clarify...

Postby Catblack » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:46 pm

If the company just leaves them on the playa, then it will be volunteer labor that picks it up and puts it on a truck. That, to me, coupled with the lack of transparency in the decision to have a this 'green zone' expo thing (and at the very base of the man?) is why I posted my questions above.

I have a huge amount of respect for everyone involved in a paid capacity (transpo, work ranch and office folks), and only a tiny bit of natural envy in that they are getting paid while I'm forking over my time and money to help out.

But from my vantage point, the decision to allow companies to exhibit their wares is one thing, (and in my opinion it was softened in the LLC's eyes due to how large the donation is.) But that donation comes with an unspoken burden on the volunteer pool that should be addressed. (And I am aware that they had twice the amount of people willing to volunteer their time for setup this year than they need...)

I want to know what the plans are for these solar panels after this leave-no-trace event is over, rather than find out when they have to be moved. Is the plan to install them in September/October after the event? Are they pulling folks off cleanup (which is paid) for the installation, or planning on storing them until spring for installation during a work weekend?

If the Borg is planning on installing them in Gerlach, it should know where, too. Hey, how about sticking a pin in google maps and sending us a link?




--
and lechat, didn't the eplaya get rebuilt in 2003?
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:45 pm

I posted Larry's comments to a Tribe thread because, well, gosh, probably because they were in response to a question in a Tribe thread, and not an ePlaya thread.

All those who disagree that Tribe is a little more technically robust and easy to use and thus more widely read than the ePlaya (because their business model is devoted to making it so, not because we do not love our ePlaya) raise your hand.
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:47 pm

Yes, there will be more said about the pavilion, the community response to the pavilion, and the Green Man theme and how it's manifesting. Will it all be in an ePlaya thread and be written as responses to posts here? No, but when we go to disseminate it, we will definitely use our own website.
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:50 pm

There's no way to know who wrote that out.


I just know you're kidding. Yeah, that's me, I make up Larry Harvey quotes and post them wherever I want! I'm evil! I should be sent to bed without dinner!

Larry wrote that response TO a Tribe question and asked me to post it on Tribe because he's not a member. Let's not read too much into it; it was a casual dialogue, not some sort of "official announcement".
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Postby helitack » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:11 pm

...but there can be no "casual" in the complaintbitchfestyouneverlistentousbutwearenotabusinessweareavalidsocialmovementnocommerce dialogue...
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:37 pm

MozyBonz wrote:Really... it's just all Speculation...


...well, I think it is fact that Jerri Manthey appeared in Playboy...
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
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Postby MozyBonz » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:44 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:
MozyBonz wrote:Really... it's just all Speculation...


...well, I think it is fact that Jerri Manthey appeared in Playboy...


Hahaha…. NO!
It's all an illusion and there is no one behind that curtain over there.
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Postby gyre » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:45 pm

I don't find tribe easier to use.
That's why I am rarely on there.
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Postby MikeVDS » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:56 pm

I don't find tribe easier either. It's different and I see why it draws a bigger crowd, but I don't think it's their Burningman forum explicitly that draws the people. It's the social networking aspect, which is poor if not nonexistent here.
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Postby helitack » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:03 pm

..I think it is so you can accumulate a pile of "friends" you will never know...
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:46 pm

Maybe the solar cell array should be given to BM for all the exposure they'll get from BM.

Heli, that's funny and quite true!!!

Tribe is a commercialization of BM. Bad on one side, OK for some to sell their products. Personally I don't like swiming through an ocean of ads first to post.

But eplaya is BM's board. It would great if larry and org would post here first and discuss issues here after or before the main BM site. It might help form, work out and focus issues.

AIIZ
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:53 pm

Here is the thing about these boards, and then I am going to go back to work on a deadline I must meet -- although it's part of my job to read and participate in these fora, it's only one part, and because priorities can shift on a dime when you help build a giant art city in the middle of nowhere, I don't always get to read it every hour of every day to really have every "live" conversation in-thread and then turn around duplicate each one somewhere else. I don't think anyone has that kind of time, nor is it how a thread functions.

I do check in quite often and also am grateful for the help of the team of community moderators on ePlaya....like many people I read more than I post, but I try to be available to speak up when a BMan Project voice is really needed, and sometimes, though I joke around and participate casually too, I do try to shut up when it's not.

Now, whether or not the ePlaya OR Tribe are used equally and uniformly for an official voice is a very different question. Tribe is actually not used or viewed above the ePlaya as a "more" important place to reach our community -- you'll note that stuff like ticket stuff from Frog, for example, tends to end up in both places, in addition to the normal use of the JRS and home page, etc. No doubt there are crossovers in membership, but they are really two different sites, with two slightly different aims.

When I speak, though, understand I'm also participating in discussions on regional lists, ePlaya, private conversation, interviews with the media, AND indeed sites like Tribe, (which includes several dozen sub tribes), and...no indeed, I can't always crossdeck between one and the other to make sure everything I say (or repost) in the context of any one thread gets posted in all of those outlets. I am keeping up with a couple of dozen conversations at any given time as it is, and no, if I say something in one place I do not see it automatic that I should repost it elsewhere.

Perhaps it's a good reason to look at my (or ANY staffer's) participation in these boards as a supplemental way to be connected to the staff, and not the main way, because conversations on line are not always easy to track, and there are more direct routes to reach me and expect an accountable, reliable response. While it's an important outlet, I still can't guarantee I can keep up with the dozens of messages that might stack on top of yours while you're waiting for me to reply to your post, nor that I'll be back in the time within which you hope for an answer, or that I won't get distracted by someone else in the same or another thread making another point - there are a lot of us in the room, not just "you" and me. If I did try to be as thorough as has been suggested I should, that would be all Burning Man paid me to do -- the volume of this kind of communication is enormous.

But, I do my best to be a participant in the (lively) (annual) (perennial) (vital!) public debate that exists about Burning Man by being a member of the online forums like ePlaya, and I certainly acknowledge their importance. I just hope we're not suggesting that I have to be accountable to replying to every single individual post that ever happens anywhere about Burning Man, or crossdecking and crossposting casual conversations between Tribe and ePlaya to make sure every reader everywhere gets every point I ever participated in...at the risk of hearing "Burning Man isn't listening to me!" or "Burning Man is not accountable!" I contend that that level of response to online forums is not humanly possible and also maybe not appropriate. Obviously, these forums are a place for dialogue among us all, not ONLY a place to Q and A with the staff and get your questions answered.
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Postby helitack » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:21 pm

...huh?
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Postby Archantael » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:22 pm

Thank you for the clarifications AG.
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:25 pm

helitack wrote:what does that have to do with..
that question?
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:27 pm

oh, nevermind, you edited your post.
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Postby mdmf007 » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:32 pm

Everyone tribes - but its too close to Myspace for me - Only way id improve Eplaya is with a chat room or two.

later
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Re: To clarify...

Postby Bob » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:48 pm

Catblack wrote:If the company just leaves them on the playa (bla bla bla) .....


How long have you been around this rodeo? DPW gets fed, bedded & paid to clean up after everyone -- participants, funded artists, First Camp, everyone.

IMO Burning Man isn't commercial enough. Hiring day-labor contractors has to be cheaper than feeding & mollycoddling "volunteers".
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Re: To clarify...

Postby Archantael » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:45 am

Bob wrote:
Catblack wrote:If the company just leaves them on the playa (bla bla bla) .....


How long have you been around this rodeo? DPW gets fed, bedded & paid to clean up after everyone -- participants, funded artists, First Camp, everyone.

IMO Burning Man isn't commercial enough. Hiring day-labor contractors has to be cheaper than feeding & mollycoddling "volunteers".


Oh really now? I know food prices keep going up but it's still cheaper to hire day laborers? I'm just dying to ask this...got cites or even simple math to back that statement up Bob? Look at what you wrote...it doesn't make any sense. Free labor vs. daily hires, you have to shuttle the day laborers out there from Reno and back vs. using a group already on site, and you don't get the culture clash that comes from a group that's really only there to earn a buck vs. someone that even at the grumpiest most precocious state still gives a flying rat's azz about the event. Not to mention all that shuttling back and forth even if it's on biodiesel busses is still going to have a little environmental impact that the ORG will now feel pressure to keep tabs on.

In short, the day laborer idea as proposed so far ain't viable.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:50 am

ActionG:

Not meaning to give you the stick at all. I think you are doing a very admirable job holding down the fort in this sh*t storm of controversy.

What I cannot figure out, and which your last post completely failed to address, is why, on the very very rare occasion the Wizards of BM deign to speak to the masses, they chose Tribe over their own ePlaya? Its not like the Business 2.0 sell-out controversy was not discussed ad nauseum here.

I avoid Tribe with its weird high-school yearbook popularity "friends" thing. Plus, ePlaya should be Burning Man's forum "of record" so to speak.

I think Larry, M2 and Marion should be millionnaires if they want that and are not already. They, along with a few others, are at the helm of a phenomenon and a huge business. I just hope that they aren't planning on pumping up BM "stock" with creeping commericalization and more Business 2.0 interviews before selling off their "shares." The Green Man theme, the fact that the Pavillion is directly under the Man, the Business 2.0 article, and the total disregard for communication on ePlaya, makes me uneasy of their motives and for the future of BM.

thanks, for listening!
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:27 am

...the Wizards of BM deign to speak to the masses...


I think the key word is masses. The idea is to reach a large audience, which tribe appears to have. This is the official board but it's not the biggest one, and I'm not sure what can be done about that. So you can work on principal and be less effective, or realize that tribe attracts more burners and reach a larger audience.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:03 am

MikeVDS wrote:
...the Wizards of BM deign to speak to the masses...


I think the key word is masses. The idea is to reach a large audience, which tribe appears to have. This is the official board but it's not the biggest one, and I'm not sure what can be done about that. So you can work on principal and be less effective, or realize that tribe attracts more burners and reach a larger audience.


\/
quality/quantity ¿
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Postby LeChatNoir » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:11 am

unjonharley wrote:
MikeVDS wrote:
...the Wizards of BM deign to speak to the masses...


I think the key word is masses. The idea is to reach a large audience, which tribe appears to have. This is the official board but it's not the biggest one, and I'm not sure what can be done about that. So you can work on principal and be less effective, or realize that tribe attracts more burners and reach a larger audience.


\/
quality/quantity �


Amen, unjon...

I use tribe but I enjoy eplaya. And though Tribe has lots of existing burners, eplaya is where a lot of newbies come first. And I feel that's important to remember.
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:19 am

Quality has nothing to do with it. "Official" statements aren't better or worse for being posted on a particular forum or addressing questions on a particular forum. Even if you could definitively say eplaya is higher quality than tribe, official statements would remain the same, yet reach a smaller audience here. Whatever qualities you'd judge an on-line community on really don't effect the bottom line, which is how effectively you're getting your message across to your target audience.

I can't believe I even have to explain this. Sometimes you do what works, not what someone thinks you should do because that should be the "official" way. If you made an on-line forum for your camp and no one ever checked it, would you still conduct all your business on that forum or just e-mail your members? IMO posting official statements is best on their burningman.com domain and unofficial dialog, to be most effective, should be toward the largest burner community they can reach, which appears to be tribe. Why does that not make sense?
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