Business 2.0 Article

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Bob » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:12 am

What's more offensive to you church ladies -- using your ticket money to pay for tech fair exhibits, using it pay for hand-picked artists, using it to pay for select volunteers, or using it to pay for an entire gated community {drink}?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby DaBomb » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:24 am

Bob wrote:What's more offensive to you church ladies -- using your ticket money to pay for tech fair exhibits, using it pay for hand-picked artists, using it to pay for select volunteers, or using it to pay for an entire gated community {drink}?


Wait a minute! How about running water in this god forsaken town! I've been going for 10 years and STILL no phone service! And the playa is still not paved!

Put our tax dollars to work!
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Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:29 am

I **LOVE** this...

PAVE THE PLAYA!!!

A BRC, Inc. Industrial Improvement Project.
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Re: CO2 sins

Postby madmatt » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:32 am

Fat SAM wrote: Here's some kind conversation for you, Mel. Suck a fart out of my asshole.


Ditto what Fat Sam said.
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Postby madmatt » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:49 am

MoisturePup wrote:
DaBomb wrote:OMG...that's the funniest thing I've seen in all my years at Burning Man. Rock on!


Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet... http://www.prosebeforehos.com/video-of-the-day/05/14/donkey-love/

Make sure you watch the 3rd video. ZOMGs


Hahahah Moisturepup - I love her little red cell phone. And how her fake boobs are all up on the side of her shoulders. That happens to human women sometimes too.
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Postby madmatt » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:05 am

LeChatNoir wrote:Burners Without Borders in Mississippi could never have accomplished what was accomplished without the aid of an international heavy equipment company that donated two big machines… an Excavator and a Front End Loader...This was probably$600K worth of machinery given to an effort down there run by a bunch of burners.

What’s the difference between that and a company donating solar panels to light The Man?


Good point LeChat! To me the difference is that they are having this pavillion thing and having all these companies there with a PR company to "educate" people at Burning Man about alternative energy.

That aid project was in response to a screaming need. There were people in trouble. People who happened to be Burners responded and got other people to help them as an act of charity in response to a terrible need.

I kind of agree that changing the way we live and trying to slow down the destruction of the earth and all its contents is a screaming, terrible need.

But they're preaching to the choir! The need isn't at Burning Man, it's out there in the world! They need to be doing this things to educate McDonalds, Wall St., WalMart, the White House and Congress, the schools, and.......all the people out there who blindly and ignorantly purchase too much and throw away too much, and drive huge SUVs and vote for George W. Bush.

By the way, if all that was happening was the donation of the solar panels and lights and the benefit to Gerlach, I would think that was really cool, really a great idea and a wonderful gift. But of course, that isn't all there is to it. It is not a gift.

It is not a gift.

It is not a gift.
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Postby DaBomb » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:10 am

By the way, if all that was happening was the donation of the solar panels and lights and the benefit to Gerlach, I would think that was really cool, really a great idea and a wonderful gift. But of course, that isn't all there is to it. It is not a gift. It is not a gift. It is not a gift.



The word you're looking for is "P.R."
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Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:29 am

Have you yet come to the stark realization that the controversy is EXACTLY what they want us to engage in.

Primes you for brainwashing.

Fuck it. I'm checkin' outta this gig.

See ya elsewhere. Prolly on th playa.

Hugs to all - jolly good shew...

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Postby DaBomb » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:50 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Have you yet come to the stark realization that the controversy is EXACTLY what they want us to engage in.


Yup, it sure has, BBS. And the newspeak for this sort of brainwashing is called "viral marketing" which is a marketing method that facilitates and encourages people to voluntarily promote a message or product through word of mouth or through Internet networks. They don't care if the conversation is good or bad (although they pro'ly prefer the former). All they really care about is that the word gets out.

And BTW...I can't wait to see ya again on the playa, BBS. Wanna have lunch again? :) We can cleanse our minds and our palates over BACON!
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Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:08 pm

DaBomb wrote:
Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Have you yet come to the stark realization that the controversy is EXACTLY what they want us to engage in.


Yup, it sure has, BBS. And the newspeak for this sort of brainwashing is called "viral marketing" which is a marketing method that facilitates and encourages people to voluntarily promote a message or product through word of mouth or through Internet networks. They don't care if the conversation is good or bad (although they pro'ly prefer the former). All they really care about is that the word gets out.

And BTW...I can't wait to see ya again on the playa, BBS. Wanna have lunch again? :) We can cleanse our minds and our palates over BACON!


Awww... you read my long post I swapped that out with, didn't ya!!!

I shoulda kept it, but it's just more stuff they want. Like the computer said... "a strange game - the only winning move is not to play". When I saw the discovery gig, it sunk in. (I'm really ashamed, as I should KNOW better!)

Yeah. Bacon. Mmmm... You think you're gonna be in the same spot this year? >grins< I think we'll be a *bit* more organized this year!
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:28 pm

I am sorry that everyone is losing Burning Man of old.
And I am not sure that I like the Burning man of New.
But all things must pass. And Burning Man is a brand now.
Like it or not. Who controls that brand is what will kill it
Or make it grow.


I will wait and see before I go back.


Branding = Perceptions (its not what the citizens perceive it’s what the rest of the world perceives)
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Postby Just Watching » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:09 pm

Mild typo clean-up ...

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
Just Watching wrote:
Bay Bridge Sue wrote:I'm sad I missed it in years past when it truly was a wild and semi-anarchistic event.


As do many people. So, Sue - why don't some of the people expressing these regrets just start another event, one small enough to be below the radar screen of the authorities, the way Burning Man used to be? This is not a flippant rhetorical question. I'm seriously wondering where the fatalism comes from. Why be sad when you can do something about the thing you're sad about?


Because it'd do like this one did - explode. It'd be fun and kewl and everyone would want a part of it, and you'd go from 500 to 5000 to 50000.

Just like BRC.



Except BRC itself didn't really explode. It grew to its current huge size over a considerable length of time, at a time when the idea of Burning was fresh and new. That time is past, so growth for your event would probably be slower.

Take a bunch of your friends out into the Wilderness to do your own thing and announce it, and you're not going to suddenly find yourself thinking "holy c**p, 50,000 people just showed up, NOW WHAT". Take a look at existing regionals - even the people working Playa del Fuego, one of the most successful of the bunch, had to work long and hard just to get up into the hundreds of attendees. This means that if you do want to put in the work to make your event BIG, you're going to have the opportunity to sit back, year by year, take stock of where you are, decide how big is big enough, and if you decide that your event is too big?

Problem easily solved, I think. Just split your event in two, ask half of the camps to go to one location, half to the other, hold both events on the same day, and space them far enough apart that commuting is out of the question. Oh, and hand over the reigns for one of the two events to one of the volunteers running it. Let the event do the mitosis thing enough times, and you'll have so many events chasing the potential participants on the same day, that the "cast of thousands showing up" scenario won't be a plausible worry. Sound reasonable?



Bay Bridge Sue wrote:BTW - I actualy have an idea for this kind of event, it'd work, it'd take off, and it'd be fun. Interested? Dare to stick your neck out, knowing it will probably get cut off, but may be fun until then? The hard part - can you or are you willing to commit to the long haul, the hard work shit, the ulcers ahd headaches, and not be a circle-jerker or make a half hearted namby pamby tweaker effort, but stick it out for the long fucking haul??



I have tried, Sue, and my neck did get sawed off, but I'll tell you what I can do and what I can't, and you tell me if this will work.

Hard work is not a problem for me. Getting out there, however, might be. Remember, some years back, those kids who came out into a job market that was pure s**t, nobody hiring anybody without 2-5 years of experience and no sensible answers offered as to where somebody was supposed to get those 2-5, and then, when the job market heated up again, being told that their lengthy period of unemployment was now a reason to refuse to take their applications seriously? "Hey, sorry about the wrong place at the wrong time thing, son, but welcome to the underclass." I'm one of those kids, somebody who entered the system before internships were invented, and came out of grad school to discover that the rules had been changed on him in mid stream.

My highest yearly income to date is what I was being paid for my 60 hour a week job as a TA - the big ten's usual $6000 per annum. I'm living well below the poverty line, and no matter how hard I work, that's one thing that I really can't change, as much as I'd like to. I can not commit large amounts of "treasure" to setting up an event, because to date I've been stubborly refused the opportunity to earn enough to have much in the way of "treasure" to begin with. Getting anywhere for me is very difficult, on a budget that in most weeks, leaves me wondering where dinner is coming from sometime around Thursday.

IF I can get out to where you are (and that's a big if), I can gladly offer you a lot of heavy lifting, being a fairly large guy, and all of the labor you could ever ask for. I'm just not sure of what else I'm in a position to offer you. What do you need?
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Postby MikeVDS » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:39 pm

My highest yearly income to date is what I was being paid for my 60 hour a week job as a TA - the big ten's usual $6000 per annum. I'm living well below the poverty line, and no matter how hard I work, that's one thing that I really can't change, as much as I'd like to.


I don't believe that, unless you have some major disability. If you want something better PM me. I know where you can find entry level jobs that pay much more than that.
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Postby Just Watching » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:06 am

MikeVDS wrote:
My highest yearly income to date is what I was being paid for my 60 hour a week job as a TA - the big ten's usual $6000 per annum. I'm living well below the poverty line, and no matter how hard I work, that's one thing that I really can't change, as much as I'd like to.


I don't believe that, unless you have some major disability.



I don't know how "major" "major" is, but I do have cerebral palsy.


If you want something better PM me. I know where you can find entry level jobs that pay much more than that.



Will do. Much interested.
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Postby Das Bus » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:43 am

""Take a look at existing regionals - even the people working Playa del Fuego, one of the most successful of the bunch, had to work long and hard just to get up into the hundreds of attendees. """

Why would you WANT to work hard to increase attendence? Unless you're trying to make money or make a name for yourself. If an event is 'sustainable', it will grow on its own.

There's no need to give out 180 free tickets to your Regional event to professional performers to entertain us; as did the Las Vegas Regional for Dark Skies/Singularity. (HIS words, NOT mine)

But then again, we are not ALLOWED to question the motives of the PROJECT or it's self appointed Regionals.
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Postby MikeVDS » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:57 am

Why would you WANT to work hard to increase attendence?


Regardless of how many people show up, events are hard work, take a lot of time, planning, hard work, and money. I think the point of working hard is to make a fun event. If it's fun the attendance will grow. If it's mediocre then it will probably keep some people around who have nothing better to do. If your attendance is growing, it means you're putting on a great event, which is the point. You want it to grow because it's a gauge of how well you're doing in certain aspects.
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Postby Das Bus » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:10 am

"If your attendance is growing, it means you're putting on a great event, which is the point. ""

Bullshit Mike.

I'd rather have an event of 20 people getting together and doing cool shit, then an event of 200 DJ's.
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Postby MikeVDS » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:30 am

Bullshit Mike.


:roll:

If those 20 people had fun, they'd probably bring their friends next year. No? Size is not everything, nor did I say it was. If only 20 people enjoy the type of event you want to do, you probably won't expect growth, but if there are 1000's who'd enjoy it you don't restrict people and only 20 keep showing up, sorry dear, your party sucks.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with smaller campouts. I love personal campouts with my close friends and will never stop doing them, but I'm not setting them up like a large scale event either and there is no reason people would camp with me rather than just with their own friends. When you make it into something else with actual growth potential, your numbers are going to reflect a lot about how you put the event together.


I'd rather have an event of 20 people getting together and doing cool shit, then an event of 200 DJ's.


I would too. What is your point again?
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Postby Lassen Forge » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:59 am

It depends on the centricity of the event.

There are already groups of folks that eschew the profit-oriented madhouse event that BRC has become. They do their own gigs. And they are fun. And small.

I have nothing against an event growing, but unless you're using the event to turn a profit and build wealth (a'la Bill Graham, or apparently the llc) it's not the whole point of it. (BTW, there's NOTHING wrong with doing that. Just so we keep that clear.)

Example - the Silverado or Pebble Beach Concourse d'elegances here in California.. They have a very limited (and exclusive) list of people who are invited to participate as exhibitors. It's one of the must attends of the antique car show circuit. Their whole purpose is to provide a venue for those who have that class of vehicle to attend, and to sell tickets to those wishing to see the cars to provide a charitable donation for worthy causes.

The crowds of visitors are huge (good for the charities!!), but the list of participants are deliberately kept small, not to make it exclusive as much as to make it a fun event for those showing their vehicles.

Now - what's the purpose of the gig? To throw a party to see how many people show? OK, maybe that's a worthy goal, but it's also a bit egocentric. I'd rather have a fun event, a quality event, something people will remember, and something they may want to come back to and bring their friends. But if they don't... as long as the event hasn't gone over to profit generation mode, no big deal.

After all - if the purpose was to start a for-profit business and make money, I wouldn't do something as snarky and potentially flaky as an event gig... most of those, like restaurants, lose their asses in the long run anyway. And I've seen enough of them grow only to tank in my life to know it's not a solid long term business model. And that is what scares me about where the llc is going.

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Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:47 am

I know this sounds like crazy-talk, but I really don't think this event was ever planned to be 'long term'. Your grandkids are NOT going to Burningman. Larry has said as much and Harley was up here a year or two ago and said, "We're looking beyond the desert."

So am I.
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Postby Ron » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:01 am

Das Bus wrote:....

I'd rather have an event of 20 people getting together and doing cool shit, then an event of 200 DJ's.


Normally I stay out of the whole, "size," argument, not being a size queen in either direction. But that's some funny shit, right there...;)


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Postby DaBomb » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:18 am

Ron, I'm with you. That's funny.

Personally, I'm not opposed to the BMorg growing their business. New age phrases come to mind: abundance, prosperity, etc.

And why not? We live in America. The American dream is financial success. Burning Man is an American experience.

The issue is: the Black Rock City LLC behaves like a grassroots movement but it is actually a for-profit entity. Yet, they get thousands of artists and volunteers to give freely in terms of time, money and labor to their enterprise when at this point, I feel they can pay people for some of the work they do.

I'm on the Camp Arctica volunteer list. Last week it was announced that volunteers were required to schedule 3 shifts this year.

I found this language appalling. It would have been better to ask us really nicely if we could give 3 shifts to Camp Arctica. Now they do great stuff for Gerlach, and the BMorg gets to triumphantly spin that into P.R. for Gerlach and Nevada, but you've got to be kidding me. I work my ASS off all year and scrimp and save to get to the Playa, but then I'm asked to give away a day's experience to work for free?

When I go to Disneyland, a five day pass only costs $189 and I'm not asked to give away a day of fun to work for them or required to give 2 hours at the end of my stay to clean up after. They pay employees to do the work, not ask for volunteers.
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Postby Sensei » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:21 am

Then there's the flipside: I'd rather dance to 200 DJ's than sit around and stare at the Special Olympics of Art.

Whatever floats your boat. No wait, we did that one already, didn't we?
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Postby BigCock » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:27 am

Sensei wrote:I know this sounds like crazy-talk, but I really don't think this event was ever planned to be 'long term'.


Indeed. It started with Cacophany organizing a TAZ "happening" around Larry and Jerry's unburnt man - a one-off event.
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Postby Archantael » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:52 am

DaBomb wrote:I'm on the Camp Arctica volunteer list. Last week it was announced that volunteers were required to schedule 3 shifts this year.

I found this language appalling. It would have been better to ask us really nicely if we could give 3 shifts to Camp Arctica. Now they do great stuff for Gerlach, and the BMorg gets to triumphantly spin that into P.R. for Gerlach and Nevada, but you've got to be kidding me. I work my ASS off all year and scrimp and save to get to the Playa, but then I'm asked to give away a day's experience to work for free?


This is the sort of attitude that kills off your volunteers. For me BRC is my vacation. And while I want to help the community and gift time and energy, I want to be able to do it on my terms. To lock me into 3 shifts as my only way to volunteer? No, sorry. I'll pass. I want the option to work a greeters shift, one or two Artica shifts, and 1-2 times with the lamplighters so I get some variety. And it's my vacation so why shouldn't I be able to control what I do?

If you want things perfectly scheduled and scripted you gotta pay the $$$$$. Otherwise you work with what you have, you treat your volunteers with courtesy and respect, and you become overly flexible and creative to pull it all off. What we're seeing here is the rigor mortis of bureaucracy setting in....if the event's not truly dead it's hurtling down the slippery slope towards it's demise. This sort of stuff is proof of that.
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Postby DaBomb » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:01 am

I hasten to say that the language was changed when a few folks hesistated to volunteer at Camp Arctica. The result was a dialogue in which Camp Arctica said they would be more flexible.


(edited for typos...must get coffee!)
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Postby LeChatNoir » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:51 pm

DaBomb wrote:I hasten to say that the language was changed when a few folks hesistated to volunteer at Camp Arctica. The result was a dialogue in which Camp Arctica said they would be more flexible.


(edited for typos...must get coffee!)


Sounds like that was a good self-regluating solution that could be applied to many problems in a volunteer community.

Good situation = continued involvement.
Bad situation = discontinued involvement.
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Postby Green Wood » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:49 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:I **LOVE** this...

PAVE THE PLAYA!!!

A BRC, Inc. Industrial Improvement Project.


What Good intentions don't count!!!

madmatt wrote:[ To me the difference is that they are having this pavillion thing and having all these companies there with a PR company to "educate" people at Burning Man about alternative energy. .


Wow, new psychotropic drugs to experiment with at BM.

Those are our new alternative energy needs!

Personally, i THINk that at $400 for a ticket at the gate they could afford a few mexicans to work at BM
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Postby Finnegan » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:20 pm

So, it's inevitable that Burning Man, the $10 Million Organization finally stopped and said 'we can fight it or we can join it.'


Well, that seems like a slow pitch. Can I get a 'Fuck no!'. Amen. Last I saw, the poll was something like 86% opposed to this. I'll bring a lighter to the Pavillion Burn, '07. Actually looking forward to it.

And if this is 'viral marketing', and any press is good press, let's redouble our efforts to make them think twice before they try it again. 'Gee, last time, your sponsors had their tent burned to the ground, and their parent companies boycotted by 40,000 people. Maybe not.'

The slow creep of corporate amerika is exactly what I come to the playa to get away from. They may couch their proposal in terms of generous "(re)Education", but PR and marketing exists for one single purpose, and that is profit.

All of this has been said before, but if 'education' is one of your goals, take your shit to nascar, super bowl, any local baseball game, etc.

So, Mel, at what point does this turn into a negative for you and your corporate masters? Just looking for that break even point.
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Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:01 am

Am I the only one out here who likes Burning Man just the way it is?
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