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Postby lurker » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:43 am

I dunno, jkisha, there's a lot of legislation in there.

I guess the reason I asked is because I see these things get put out, I see half-hearted responses--that often ignore the content in favor of slamming the source, or I see them just get ignored.

And it's important stuff.

What if it's true? What do you do then?

People discounted that McCain legislation(co-sponsored) that was put forth a few years ago--that got derailed by the Dem leadership. But that's legislation, y'know? It shows that McCain tried to do something about this BEFORE it became a crisis. But everyone seems to be saying 'so what?'
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Postby can't sit still » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:12 pm

Well gang, you're seeing history in the making. Citi is taking on Wachovia. It nets them $42 billion in debt but $600 billion in deposits. Everyone wants to take over a bank with deposits. Trouble is,,, that $42 billion in debt does not include the off-balance sheet tier 3 stuff.
The banks are rotten to the core and people know it. "WaMu became ``unsound'' after customers withdrew $16.7 billion since Sept. 16," Citi is betting that customers will settle down and stop the withdrawals.
Not fucking likely. Wachovia is the largest holder of ARMs. Fitch ratings says that they expect ARMs to fail at a rate of 45%. A 45% failure rate for 122 billion in ARMs will cook their goose.
This is marriage in a morgue. A marriage of the cadavers.
These financial shitheads have all their secret algorithms and formulae. It didn't occur to them that property would lose value when wage standards were lowered.
There is only one reason for the bailout. When the shit really hits the fan, GOV can say "we tried"
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Postby betrdanevr » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:21 pm

FWIW:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stor ... aily1.html

Under the agreement, Citigroup will absorb up to $42 billion of losses on a $312 billion pool of loans held by Charlotte, N.C.-based Wachovia, which is the largest bank in the D.C. area based on deposits.

The FDIC will absorb losses beyond that.

Citigroup has granted the FDIC $12 billion in preferred stock and warrants to compensate the FDIC for bearing this risk.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:26 pm

i'd be happy if someone would just front me an eighth until friday.
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Postby Elderberry » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:27 pm

lurker wrote:I dunno, jkisha, there's a lot of legislation in there.

I guess the reason I asked is because I see these things get put out, I see half-hearted responses--that often ignore the content in favor of slamming the source, or I see them just get ignored.

And it's important stuff.

What if it's true? What do you do then?

People discounted that McCain legislation(co-sponsored) that was put forth a few years ago--that got derailed by the Dem leadership. But that's legislation, y'know? It shows that McCain tried to do something about this BEFORE it became a crisis. But everyone seems to be saying 'so what?'


There is an old expression that I'm sure you heard before: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

My gut instinct tells me not to trust movies that debut on youtube as anything more than propaganda. So I would never comment on the content other than to say if it could be put together so concisely and it were the truth, it would have been picked up by all the major news outlets by now.

As it hasn't, I will assume it to be propaganda. I sure do hope I hear back from factcheck.org on this.

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Postby can't sit still » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:13 pm

Here's a bit of speculation from the investment community; " The next step of this panic could become the mother of all bank runs, i.e. a run on the trillion dollar plus of the cross border short-term interbank liabilities of the US banking and financial system as foreign banks as starting to worry about the safety of their liquid exposures to US financial institutions; such a silent cross border bank run has already started as foreign banks are worried about the solvency of US banks and are starting to reduce their exposure"

Domestic investors have already "run" the banks. Small depositors are doing a limited "run". If the foreign investors flee, they could pull out a trillion in a few hours. That might cause the bond market to collapse. Fasten your seat belts and hang on.
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Postby wonderphil » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:07 pm

can't sit still wrote:Here's a bit of speculation from the investment community; " ... cause the bond market to collapse. Fasten your seat belts and hang on.


link for this?
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Postby Toolmaker » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:36 pm

jkisha wrote:
lurker wrote:I dunno, jkisha, there's a lot of legislation in there.

I guess the reason I asked is because I see these things get put out, I see half-hearted responses--that often ignore the content in favor of slamming the source, or I see them just get ignored.

And it's important stuff.

What if it's true? What do you do then?

People discounted that McCain legislation(co-sponsored) that was put forth a few years ago--that got derailed by the Dem leadership. But that's legislation, y'know? It shows that McCain tried to do something about this BEFORE it became a crisis. But everyone seems to be saying 'so what?'


There is an old expression that I'm sure you heard before: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

My gut instinct tells me not to trust movies that debut on youtube as anything more than propaganda. So I would never comment on the content other than to say if it could be put together so concisely and it were the truth, it would have been picked up by all the major news outlets by now.

As it hasn't, I will assume it to be propaganda. I sure do hope I hear back from factcheck.org on this.

JK


I agree.. the news stations are the most trustworthy source of news. Only trust the corporate news. Any other news is crap...
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Postby Elderberry » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:44 pm

Toolmaker wrote:
I agree.. the news stations are the most trustworthy source of news. Only trust the corporate news. Any other news is crap...


Yes. Especially Fox News. :roll:

And where do you get your 'reliable' reporting from, might I enquire? (no pun intended)

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Postby Toolmaker » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:52 am

jkisha wrote:
Toolmaker wrote:
I agree.. the news stations are the most trustworthy source of news. Only trust the corporate news. Any other news is crap...


Yes. Especially Fox News. :roll:

And where do you get your 'reliable' reporting from, might I enquire? (no pun intended)

JK


These days the voices in my head are alot more honest than CNN. Noam Chomsky is good and so is Jello Biafra. I avoid sources that tell me about planes hitting the Pentagon, I can't find any pics of plane parts.

http://killtown.911review.org/pentalawn.html

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/ ... urs_en.htm

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/flight77.html
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Postby lurker » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:41 am

jkisha, you post this--

There is an old expression that I'm sure you heard before: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

My gut instinct tells me not to trust movies that debut on youtube as anything more than propaganda. So I would never comment on the content other than to say if it could be put together so concisely and it were the truth, it would have been picked up by all the major news outlets by now.

As it hasn't, I will assume it to be propaganda. I sure do hope I hear back from factcheck.org on this.


Which IS this--

I see half-hearted responses--that often ignore the content in favor of slamming the source, or I see them just get ignored.


You've slammed the source...and then put the whole thing on 'ignore' until some authority figure tells you if it's true or not.

And why do you assume that this is propaganda and the major news is not? Aren't you guys the big fans of alternate and underground media?

Consider this-- Pelosi chastizes the house reps for not showing up, not backing the bailout--and then she chastizes Bush over the need for the bailout--but it's Bush' bailout. It's HIS 700 billion dollar monster--and she backs it.....and the media is reporting this as if there's no incongruity in her stance.

And I watch you all parrot this--Bush this, Reps, that, Wall Street growl, growl, growl. And yet the 'fix' for this crisis, the 'fix' that Pelosi wants passed CAME from Bush and his rep cabinet.

I mean, I'm not trying to be rude here, but it looks like you guys are being led around by the nose. It's eerily 1984-ish.

Not two weeks ago Reid and Pelosi were saying they didn't know what to do, or that there might be nothing they can do--and then the Bush admin created this monster and now they're saying that the reps are doing nothing--while backing the 'fix' the Bush reps made. What the hell?
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:56 am

as FDR once said, "yeah, i know she's a Cunt, but she's OUR cunt"
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Postby Toolmaker » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:40 am

Looks like FEMA will take care of our needs in case of emergency.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

More propaganda sites I like to visit

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.thesmokinggun.com
http://www.uhuh.com
http://www.freepressinternational.com
http://www.bitemepolitics.com

All interesting propaganda sites

Don't worry.. its just a conspiracy theory and the collapse of the economy and the fema camps are coincidental. though many have been predicting this and planning for it for YEARS.
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Postby ygmir » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:42 pm

Toolmaker wrote:Looks like FEMA will take care of our needs in case of emergency.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

More propaganda sites I like to visit

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.thesmokinggun.com
http://www.uhuh.com
http://www.freepressinternational.com
http://www.bitemepolitics.com

All interesting propaganda sites

Don't worry.. its just a conspiracy theory and the collapse of the economy and the fema camps are coincidental. though many have been predicting this and planning for it for YEARS.


raises hand.......
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Postby can't sit still » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:44 pm

wonderphil wrote:
can't sit still wrote:Here's a bit of speculation from the investment community; " ... cause the bond market to collapse. Fasten your seat belts and hang on.


link for this?

Phil, the quote is from Nouriel Roubini. He's a professor in New York. He has a great track record for accuracy. I can't find the original article. I found a reprint on a blog; http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/threa ... did=799100
It's the third post down. Roubini has great credentials and has always had great accuracy.
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Postby lurker » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:21 am

So I post a question about the video Toolmaker posted, and I ask if anyone can actively refute it.

And then I say what I think will happen. And, lo and behold, it does. We get a poke at the source and a change of subject.

Isn't that interesting?
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Postby can't sit still » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:24 pm

I'm innocent,,, My new LINUX... UBUNTU machine [7 y.o.] won't do vid. Can't figure it out.
Here's an interesting fact. Somehow Bush is 10% higher in popular approval than congress. What a pack of thieves; "Congressman Chris Van Hollen, one of 95 mainly liberal Democrats who voted no (140 voted yes), said his office had received 3,000 phone calls, 3,000 emails, with 100 people being against the bill for every one who was for it"
100 to 1. I don't suppose that our senate will notice.
28 million Americans are on food stamps,,, 1 % are incarcerated. Do you think that GOV will notice that something is amiss? Our swashbuckling corporate raiders are icons in New York. They fabricate junk bonds to do LBOs,,, strip all the assets and ride off into the night.

The nature of global business is that inflation and prices must be known ahead of time because profit margins are so slim in most niches. We produce trillions in bonds,,, rate them AAA and sell them to the world. The global economy is crashing badly. Look at the Baltic Dry Goods Index. It's crashed completely. This will carry into the general economy very soon. The world is tired of our lying, cheating business processes. They are pulling out their money.
Profits margins are twice as high in the east as they are in Europe. The world has had it with our scams. The senate can vote for whatever they want. The investors won't buy it. Look at California, they can't sell bonds to save their asses.
There's no perceived integrity in business or GOV. They don't want to do business with us. Can't blame em.
Here is a very good article that examines the possible outcomes/solutions. http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6564.html
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Postby wonderphil » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:00 pm

Toolmaker wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx_VGaAf-7A[/youtube]


The video seems to be all true until Wikipedia completely rewrote the section on the Community Reinvestment Act since I and Mikevds posted different sections on it a few days ago. They removed most that would make the democrats who pushed the bill throuigh congress look bad. Any they removed the "we have no fucking problem with freddy and fanny" (my words) quote by Barney Frank.

Do you think someone is rewritting history again to serve the masters of the clueless proletariat? Who is the puppet (for now) of the puppet masters ?
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Postby Elderberry » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:08 pm

Since anyone can edit a Wiki at any time, you have to take what you read there with a grain of salt. Especially since it is documented that various special interest groups have been known to make biased changes that can sometimes be totally erroneous. They actually discovered this when they started tracking the IP addresses of people making changes and traced the addresses back to the source.

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Postby wonderphil » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:25 am

See previous post the quote by Barny Frank is true. So we once again see evidence of a whitewash of history. --- is this a big surprise to any of you so called open minded people? I saw good old Barny who is pushing the bailout blaiming the republicans for the problem tonight on CNBC.

you can fool some of the people some of the time


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

September 11, 2003
New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae
By STEPHEN LABATON


... ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.
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Postby ygmir » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:25 am

the plot thickens............
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Postby lurker » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:28 am

Not the plot, the fog. Makes it harder to see what actually happened.
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Postby can't sit still » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:37 am

Eureka,,,, or something like that.
Bush said that every day was critical to passing the bailout. The senate is in a mad stampede when they should be home campaigning. Same for the House.
Why the almighty rush?
You remember GOV bailed out Mac and Mae. Well, they didnt exactly bail them out. They torched the stockholders and preserved the bondholders. The bondholders being Chinese. Now, it turns out that the GSEs will be bailed out by selling bonds to raise the money. These bonds are going to be auctioned October 6th. Who's going to buy these bonds? I doubt that the Chinese will buy bonds to bail themselves out.
Who does that leave? The taxpayer, of course.
The US has to sell these bonds at all costs, but, the credit markets are frozen up completely. If the auction fails the US has to make some kind of show of backing the GSE bailout. Of course, the US has to borrow the money to fund the bailout eventually.
The US services it's debt by paying $2 billion a day. It also borrows more than $2 billion a day. It prints up money at 19% a year. The value of the bonds held by investors declines at 15% a year.
The Chinese don't want to bail out their own bonds. The Chinese don't want the US to print the money to repay them.
They want the taxpayer to pony up some real wealth to pay the bill.
It's going to get ugly. Oct 6. Maybe the house will stonewall just to see the fireworks. There is going to be some serious arm-twisting.
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Postby ygmir » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:49 am

It's looking more and more to me, in my simple world, like a case of:
cut the arm off, or, put on a bandaid, and,wait for gangrene and die..........

Maybe we shouldn't bail anyone out, let everything crash, suffer extreme pain, but, still have the ability to pull ourselves out of the dust at the end of the day..........

As painful as a crash may be, (depending on the actual severity, as opposed to the gloom and doom crowd), it might not hurt as much as a crash after spending all that tax money and have it go away.....(chineses,etc).....

Just simple thoughts from a simple mind........M-O-O-N, that's how you spell economics...........
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Postby lurker » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:14 am

Ooooh...look who voted FOR the bailout--Obama, Biden, AND McCain.

Still think you can vote for someone who can win who's not gonna screw you?

Hahahahaha. Vote for the one who might use a little lube....
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:21 am

Lyndon LaDouche?
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Postby goathead » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:38 am

ygmir wrote:the plot thickens............

Makes me kind of admire the Chinese and the way they handle, those who fuck shit up.

Organ donor anyone?
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Postby Elderberry » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:51 am

wonderphil, what are you doing quoting from the New York Times? You know that they are a tool for the liberal left wing fanatics and you can't believe a thing they say.

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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:55 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:Lyndon LaDouche?


I ran into some of his ppl a LONG time ago.. they were pimpin some global roadway or somesuch. They seemed like creepy guru junkies to me so I ran away.

The crash is EXPECTED and was possibly planned as a false flag operation. This may get really ugly.. and fast.

This guy who worked at NASA and wrote a book about the Challenger wrote an interesting article.

http://www.richardccook.com/

"Grand Larceny" on a Monumental Scale: Does the Bailout Bill Mark the End of America as We Know It?

by Richard C Cook

OCTOBER 1, 2008—Tonight the Senate passed the $700 billion Wall Street bailout bill by a vote of 74-25. This follows the rejection of the bill by the House on Monday. In an MSNBC poll, 62 percent of Americans oppose the giveaway, but the lobbyists are doing everything possible to assure the rejection is overturned. According to Bob Borosage, co-director of The Campaign for America’s Future, House leaders "are bringing in the small business lobby and the banking lobby to buy the twelve Republican votes they need."

The Senate took up the bill in order to pressure House members who voted against it to change their positions when it returns to a vote on the House floor on Friday. This procedure may be unconstitutional, because revenue bills must originate in the House, but there is no time or political will for anyone to mount a challenge on constitutional grounds. As another means of inducement—or blackmail—the bill includes the repeal of the wildly unjust alternative minimum tax.

Every reputable economist commenting on the bill opposes it, including NYU’s Nouriel Roubini, who says the plan is "totally flawed." He says the plan is:

"a disgrace: a bailout of reckless bankers, lenders, and investors that provides little direct debt relief to borrowers and financially stressed households and that will come at a very high cost to the US taxpayer."

My own view is that the plan is worse than that: a crime; grand larceny on a monumental scale.

Here’s why: We know that the debacle started with homeowner defaults on subprime mortgages and that it has now spread to other types of mortgages as foreclosures spread. We know that the unhealthy use of subprime mortgages started during the Clinton administration, as did the bundling and sale of these mortgages into mortgage-backed securities sold in the financial markets.

What has not been reported is that the Bush administration turned these acts of reckless lending into a national program of mortgage fraud. Soon after George W. Bush became president in 2001, meetings at the White House between Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and administration officials became more frequent. According to mortgage industry insiders I have interviewed, direction soon began to come down from the banks to mortgage brokers to falsify borrower income information to allow them to qualify for loans that were otherwise out of reach.

The FBI has investigations underway to prosecute some of these cases of mortgage fraud. But they are not reaching above the brokers’ level. The FBI is not gaining access—or at least they have not reported it publicly—to information about collusion at the political level or at the level of the banks which provided the leveraged funding for mortgage money.

But at the time the housing bubble was inflating, no one was watching. Note that when Secretary of the Treasury Henry Paulson testified before the Senate Banking Committee last week, he said he was shocked to learn when assuming office in June 2006 that no federal agency regulated mortgage lending. Rather this was an area left to the states.

What Paulson did not say was that when the states attempted to intervene, they were blocked by the Treasury Department’s Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. In a February 14 article in the Washington Post written before he resigned, New York governor Eliot Spitzer wrote:

"In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules. But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation."

Why did the Bush administration do this? The only possible answer is that it had every intention of producing the housing bubble, one that had the effect of not only inflating the cost of homes and real estate but also pumping billions of dollars of borrowed cash into the economy through mortgage and home equity loans.

The bubble enriched huge numbers of executives, managers, and shareholders throughout the financial and real estate industries, and provided jobs to millions of people. The bubble also brought back foreign capital to U.S. markets that had been scared away by the dot.com bust of 2000-2001.

Everyone seemed to benefit, but it was those at the top who skimmed the greatest profits. And for an economy that had already given away millions of its best manufacturing jobs through NAFTA, Most-Favored-Nation trading policies with China, World Trade Organization agreements, etc., the bubble acted as a kind of substitute economic engine.

It also resulted in tax revenues that allowed the Bush administration to implement its 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for the rich and provide funding for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Of course these tax revenues were not enough, as the national debt soared to over $9 trillion during the Bush years as well.

Economist Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research makes the point:

"The near hysterical discussion (count the times ‘Great Depression’ appears in news stories) of the bailout still largely fails to recognize the roots of the economy's current problems in the collapse of the housing bubble. Much of the discussion assumes that the problem is just bad subprime loans and that house prices will bounce back once the credit markets are working properly."

The point is critical, because what the Senate and House leaders are telling us, as are President George W. Bush, presidential candidates Barack Obama and John McCain, and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, is that the bailout is to get the American economy moving again. Credit, they say, is the lifeblood of the economy, and without credit no one can make a move.

But credit is the lifeblood of the economy only because people are broke. Purchasing power in the U.S. has collapsed, and it is getting worse as the recession which has now begun worsens.

People can’t get loans, not because the credit markets are stalled, but because they have no savings for down payments and can’t afford to repay what they wish to borrow. If they could repay their loans, plenty of credit would be available. But there is no money—and no savings—within the economy for it to get moving again. The only possible source is more federal borrowing to prime the pump Keynesian-style. That is what the politicians claim the bailout will do. But it won’t.

Then what is happening?

What is happening is that the Bush administration is engineering a massive raid on the Federal treasury to pay off the people within the financial industry who have been operating the housing scam because the politicians told them to do it. This is hush money.

The people in the financial institutions who are getting the money will be passing it on to the big banks that leveraged their criminal lending practices. The giant sucking sound you hear is almost a trillion dollars of future taxpayer earnings going into the vaults of the nations’s biggest banks, such as Citibank, Bank of American, and—the pet bank of the Rockefeller family—J.P. Morgan Chase. Much will also go into the vaults of foreign investors such as the Bank of China.

And these banks have no intention of recycling the money into productive U.S. investments. Despite the political posturing, where much of it will go at the second or third tier is into executive salaries and bonuses. The fat cats are "gittin’ out while the gittin’s good."

What happens next?

Well, it is already happening. In the post-bubble era there will be no more economic engines for the American economy. A long term recession and depression are inevitable, and they are expected by those in the know. In fact, there has been a plan in the works for a very long time to bring down the U.S. economy, and it will be happening over the coming months.

This is why the government is also preparing to implement martial law, or something close to it, in case public unrest breaks out. We will likely also see a clampdown on free speech, the right to protest, and use of the internet. Federal facilities are being prepared all around the country to backstop state prisons and local jails that are already bursting at the seams.

This is the plan, so people need to begin to take whatever measures they can to cut their cost of living, get out of debt, and protect themselves and their families.

Richard C. Cook is a former U.S. federal government analyst, whose career included service with the U.S. Civil Service Commission, the Food and Drug Administration, the Carter White House, NASA, and the U.S. Treasury Department. His articles on economics, politics, and space policy have appeared in numerous websites and print magazines. His book on monetary reform, entitled We Hold These Truths: The Hope of Monetary Reform, will soon be published. He is the author of Challenger Revealed: An Insider’s Account of How the Reagan Administration Caused the Greatest Tragedy of the Space Age, called by one reviewer, "the most important spaceflight book of the last twenty years." His website is www.richardccook.com. Comments or requests to be added to his mailing list or to purchase his special report on the 2008 election may be sent to EconomicSanity@gmail.com.

Richard C Cook is a frequent contributor to Global Research.
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Toolmaker
 
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Postby can't sit still » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:07 pm

Toolmaker, THAT is bogus !! You just posted it because he's an optimist :lol:
So, our economy has no capital and no engine. Bummer.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
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