Is democracy fading away,,,, should it ?

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Postby can't sit still » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:08 pm

Thanks, Elliot. I think that, in the final analysis there are several "groups" that would be willing to supplant europeans in America. We have lots of water!!!
Imagine what would happen if you put the Amish up against the Mescalero Apaches.
The US doesn't need to trash other countries. The US needs to abandon Keynesian economics and live with a stable population.
The Amerinds don't have much chance of a comeback as long as they have a predisposition for diabetes and alcoholism. :(
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:44 pm

can't sit still wrote:we should adopt Zeus's pantheon. There will be so many gods that we would have a polyglot religion. With 50 dieties, there would not be a big majority to put the squeeze on a minority. I'm sure that Bachannal and Mammon would be very popular. We're only missing a god of refer.


That's was one of my arguments against the monotheistic beliefs. One God=Who's God or who's difinition of God.

We our gods as deities of natural and supernatural forces. Terrestial and extraterrestial! So we can easily transpose them from Lakota and other indigenous cultures. There is also a personal knowledge of them that I don't talk about, but I will mention it as that.

Jah of the Rastafarians is the God of Refer!

ImageHey He's not Black, but Brown!

Oh here is a good NPR show on how the rich take advantage of our democracy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17808622


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Postby Elliot » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:59 pm

:D
The Amerinds don't have much chance of a comeback...


I sometimes tell people that they ARE taking their country back -- one quarter at the time, and the battle fields are called casinos.

I'll butt out now.
:D
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:09 pm

They could buy much of it back if they ever get the billions stolen from them. The Republicans have been puting their judges in the supreme court so those that have profited from the expansive ranges they inherited won't have to sell it back.

They should give it back. White man stole the best and gave them the badlands. Too bad the white man didn't know about the black gold underneath. when they found out they tried to steal that too, but it was too late. The indians found out what lawyers are for!

The natives have a good case.

I might just move there and set up my office then grow some devils weed!

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Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:41 am

can't sit still wrote:Right now, Bush has demanded a much bigger commitment to ethanol. China has let her grain reserves drop perilously low. We're going to bend China over the barrel for every morsel of food that she gets. Is this bad?Arable land and especially water is becoming scarcer by the day. Energy to produce crops, etc. is getting scarcer every day.
Should one population feel remorse at displacing another? It's natures way. Can we afford to be complacent and benevolent towards other populations that may very well supplant our population?
Many countries have a diminishing population. The future belongs to the most fecund or warlike,,, or both. Should this involve guilt?


That makes guilt a weakness that could lead to extinction for a population. (Somebody else here mentioned the Amish versus the Apache. I love that.)

Some people feel guilty about killing animals, and then they get hungry.

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Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:20 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:Much of the highway between the Warm Springs indian reservation and Bend was built on an ancient native American trading route: the tribal Americans in the original poster's community were slave traders; they traded human lives for things like sea shells.


I have a nice collection of seashells. Are they still in business?
No? I guess I'll have to buy/rent my slaves from the Mexicans, who seem to feel comfortable with this; even the government endorses it.
But, pray, what does this justify?

And whither our democracy?
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Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:49 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:Much of the highway between the Warm Springs indian reservation and Bend was built on an ancient native American trading route: the tribal Americans in the original poster's community were slave traders; they traded human lives for things like sea shells.


I have a nice collection of seashells. Are they still in business?
No? I guess I'll have to buy/rent my slaves from the Mexicans, who seem to feel comfortable with this;
And whither our democracy?


In Portland, people pull up next to a group of them, hold out fingers for however many workers they need, and the practically crawl over the top of each other to get in the vehicle. You discuss the work and pay at that point.

As for democracy, they're talking about record voter turnout in the primaries. That's real democracy at work right there.

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Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:06 pm

Happy Latte to you too. :)
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Postby can't sit still » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:36 pm

"That makes guilt a weakness that could lead to extinction for a population.

Some people feel guilty about killing animals, and then they get hungry."
Guilt is a luxury reserved for the well-fed. The poor will sell their daughters. They will hamstring their own kids so that they make more from begging. If you've read 'Alive" or "For Fear We Shall Perish", you know that some people will eat humans if they are starving slowly.
Polynesia has a long history of famine and canabalism.
Globalisation tends to average things out worldwide. We will undoubtedly see more poverty, unemployment and hunger. I imagine that we'll see less guilt when People are Eating Tasty Animals. :twisted:
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:14 am

can't sit still wrote:Guilt is a luxury reserved for the well-fed.

Erst kommt das Fressen dann kommt die Moral--Bertold Brecht.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TALp5-rTo3w[/youtube]
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm

Ms Crypto, I'm sure that there is ome kind of lession in that vid but, nine sprechen deutsch. I studied the Romance languages but only studdied German for a short time. At times I use words like leiberstraum or Sturm und drang,,, but I don't know German.

This message/ analysis is from a British blog. He has some interesting speculation about who is controlling europe.

I find myself getting more frustrated by the day. How blind can some people be? It has been obvious to me, who is a cynic in any case, that the whole European Union fiasco is something which was cobbled together by General de Gaulle and Konrad Adenauer. Don't forget that Germany was split into East and West and the demands from the occupying powers for reparations must have caused quite a lot of ill feeling in the general population. Had it been Britain I know it would have here. France, and especially De Gaulle, didn't like Britain in any case and De Gaulle was annoyed because he was kept out of many of the discussions between the three main powers both during the war and afterwards.

So, we have Germany who had tried for European domination twice in 31 years between 1914 and 1945 and France who hated Britain because we stopped Napoleon and he died while in our so called care. The French still hold Napoleon in great esteem. What started off as a Common Market was, from the very beginning, designed to produce a fully integrated union of nations. The general populations of the countries involved were not told of the ultimate goal and were moved from one stage to the other by stealth. The Common Market, which we had a referendum for, went to the European Community and then to the European Union without any further reference to the British people. I believe the goals of this Union have altered from just a unification of Europe to a wider union involving not just European countries but also Eastern European countries, such as Turkey. In short it is Germany's old goal of Leiberstraum, namely German control of both living space and raw materials. France, who one would have thought should have known better, has gone forward on the coat tails of German leadership hoping for a major role in this German goal. Germany couldn't control Europe by war so it has, so far successfully, done it by economic and political means.

Our politicians have now been sucked into this mess and Brown, like his predecessor, believes that he will still have a major part in this new Europe because that is what they have told him. You only have to look at the body language when French and German leaders meet and that which happens when the British leaders meet their European counterparts. I want to be out of this beaurocratic mess which is the European Union. I am angry and frustrated by the British people who are laying down, with the typical stiff upper lip, and watching our once great country being led down a road of political and economic disintegration. I also notice that UKIP are silent while all this is going on. My hope lies with Ireland who are to have a referendum. If they kick this lunacy into touch we will, at least in the short term, get a respite while Germany and France cobble another "Constitution" together. By that time the political scene in Britain may have altered. I will not hold my breath though.

As Popi says, we fought two major world wars, lost millions of service personnel, bankrupted the country in the process and all for it to be given away by misguided politicians.
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Postby World Power Foundation » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:44 pm

Most of you are slaves and don't realize it.
Some of you work efficiently for your masters' pleasure. It makes me smile to see this.
Too many, however, are merely excess eaters.
Thousands of people are being sacrificed every day. Why not have them sacrificed for you?
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Postby can't sit still » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:01 pm

Spoken like a true humanitarian. Well, not to worry, the worms will have their turn with you. Just as you eat, you will be eaten in turn :lol:
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Postby Rolan Headon » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:01 pm

Fuck all the gods, bring on the goddesses. Turn over the planet to the women before it's too late. Maybe the organic empathy of motherhood can save us yet.

Side note to css: biology is full of non-cutthroat arrangements between species sharing space and resources in relatively cooperative ways before you range into actual symbiosis. Birds eating similar bugs or seeds but from differing parts of the trees or at varying times, that sort of thing. And even predator/prey relationships could accurately be considered symbiotic. Competition "red in tooth and claw" is a somewhat outmoded and limited view of an admittedly competitiive world. "Social Darwinism" could be the cornerstone and last refuge of Nazism...and because science was turned to the killing of humans, civilization triumphs over "savages"? Some of the natives never dreamed of a people so brutal. And not all societies have been antagonistic or interested in expansion. Downright "civiized" even. Many Indians were less than warlike and "counting coup" forms of intertribal warfare around the world often were more about proving bravery than effective displacement and reflect very low mortality rates and an honoring of the enemy. Sure territories have always been grabbed, torture and slavery are part of the human way, but are you sure there can be no evolution beyond this sad history? Not that you ever said that. Will the most warlike ones with the most nukes win?

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Postby can't sit still » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:43 pm

Rolan, I've never tried to step back and asess the state of society. I probably couldn't do it.
For much of man's history, population expansion was the over riding controlling factor. Competition for resources went hand in hand with expansion.
Population expansion is amenable to control nowadays. Our current hobgoblin is control of energy resources. I find it odd that we learn much from our forebearers in certain areas and next-to-nothing in other areas.
We're gaining more knowledge, but not getting any smarter. We meet far more people than our ancestors did, but have fewer friends.
We invented the air-conditioner and got rid of the porch. We don't even know our neighbors.
As we turn inward, we care less about society. As we think more about our mortality, we try to cram more and more experiences into our lives.
As we get farther and farther from earth and mother nature, we get more and more insecure.
As an example, if you have your hay barn under the same roof as your horses, they're much calmer.
People are the same in some ways. Since most of man's history included famine, we have a built-in attitude about being around food and water.
We're just so distanced from nature, we're overwrought with neuroses.

The pols feed this by creating more and more insecurity. Then they tell us that they'll take care of everything.
Far too many people refuse to think. Clinton just said that she was going to put a huge tax on the oil companies. How many people will think this through? How many people will realise that the tax will just be passed on to us.
People are so overloaded and stressed out that they don't want to hear it and they don't want to have to make decisions.
I believe that our present system is on it's way out. I won't be surprised if we're under martial law before the year is out.
Dan
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Postby Rolan Headon » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:27 pm

About the worms...two interesting biological concepts, both would make good band names:

Eventual Lunch -- every living thing will be eaten someday.

Hopeful Monsters -- the genetically mutated that could just turnout with a survival advantage
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Postby Rolan Headon » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:36 pm

I agree. To my thinking, separation (and in our arrogance we think superiority to it) from nature is our problem and many of the indigenous societys, even with their magical and superstitious beliefs, still are rooted in a greater understanding of natural, real systems and cycles. Alas the sacred becomes profane...sacred vaginas come to mind...sacred water, trees, the other animals as people too. Sacred playa...
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:40 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzZmkQT-lv8[/youtube]
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Postby chiefdanfox » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:40 pm

Image
biology is full of non-cutthroat arrangements between species sharing space
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Postby Rolan Headon » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:03 pm

I wanna see some dams fall! Salmon would be more valuable to future generations than our temporary higher crop yield , lawns, carwashes and 15 minute showers (Book plug; "A Natural History Of Water, by Alice Outwater)

I'd be very surprised if we have martial law with the next elections, the powers that be are still firmly in control...but Toolmaker and others-- We hope you're voting even if it is for the tired old lesser evil. (Horrible as the potential of Diebold is) Not to is to give total license and join the jaded and discouraged majority that doesn't vote already...didn't someone quote (Fear and Loathing dude who coulda voted if he'd stuck around), "If all the Dead Heads had voted in the last election..." Bush and Co wouldn't be driving the planet into the dumpster. It ain't much but it's something.
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:27 pm

If you cruise around the southwest on google-earth, you'll see zillions of crop circles from the air. They are mostly alfalfa for stock feed. The amount of water used for meat production is usually figured at 78% of the total US consumption.
It takes about 6.5 lbs of grain and alfalfa for each lb of meat yield from beef. Chicken is lower. Aligator is the lowest.
Skip the steak and ride your bike. That will save lots of water destined for cattle feed or ethanol.
I disagree on the martial law deal. I kinda expect martial law before the end of the year. :cry:
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Postby can't sit still » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:51 am

From Yahoo news; "President Robert Kocharyan imposed a state of emergency in the capital and ordered troops onto the streets after opposition demonstrators protesting at what they say was a rigged election hurled petrol bombs, looted stores and set vehicles ablaze."

The US GOV told the Armenians to use all legal means and to remain calm.
We had a rigged election and we remained calm. What did it get us? A POS that loves to kick the shit out of his sheeple,,, that's what it got us.
Are the Armenians on a higher moral ground. Are they showing more responsibility to the idea of preserving a more democratic society?
Our constitution directs us to resort to violence to throw out a tyranical gov.
Are we a bunch of spineless slackers who deserve what we get? We vote and we send E-mails to our "representatives". We're reeeeeal easy to ignore. What will it take to get some real action?
The French, for all their whinnyness, aren't at all reluctant to hold general strikes to pressure GOV. What will it take for Americans to rip their attention away from Idol and do something that can't be ignored?
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:23 am

can't sit still wrote:Our constitution directs us to resort to violence to throw out a tyranical gov.

If that were true we would have done that several times already.
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Postby can't sit still » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:25 pm

On an old piece of paper it says; " When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"
My interpretation of "throw off" does indeed include violence. As long as we still have bread and circuses, we don't seem to mind an erosion of rights and liberties.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:39 am

can't sit still wrote:On an old piece of paper it says; " When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"
My interpretation of "throw off" does indeed include violence. As long as we still have bread and circuses, we don't seem to mind an erosion of rights and liberties.

Isn't that the Declaration of Independence?

After a revolution, one of the first things that the new government does is prohibit others to do what they have just done. ;)
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Postby can't sit still » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:03 pm

Right you are,,, what matter if it's George the third or George the turd? :evil:
Among the many items of bullshit that they cram down our throats in school is the "edict" that violence doesn't solve anything" What a crock of crap. Violence or the threat of violence is often the only thing that brings about changes.
If you compare the actions of Janet Reno to those of Timothy Mcveigh, who was striking out at a truly dangerous group?
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:07 am

Just for the record, I don't have any truly automatic weapons or knowledge of explosives or current plans to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States. I like to eat shrimp, though.
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Postby can't sit still » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:57 pm

Like you, I don't have any plans to overthrow the duly elected US GOV.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:55 am

Most militias consist of mis-informed out-of-shape and badly-trained yahoos. What dictator would be afraid of that?
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Postby can't sit still » Fri May 02, 2008 6:57 am

"Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide." John Adams
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