Suggestion for making burning man free

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Suggestion for making burning man free

Postby Do_Japan » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:28 pm

Why dont they open up vendors in the city to turn a profit, instead of pretending to be above money yet charing $250 for a ticket. Im sure this idea seems outrageous to alot of people, but i dont think it would hurt the event that much, and ide much rather spend my money on supplies there, than pay $250 just for a small plot of desert to camp on.
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Re: Suggestion for making burning man free

Postby Flux » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:52 pm

Do_Japan wrote:Why dont they open up vendors in the city to turn a profit, instead of pretending to be above money yet charing $250 for a ticket. Im sure this idea seems outrageous to alot of people, but i dont think it would hurt the event that much, and ide much rather spend my money on supplies there, than pay $250 just for a small plot of desert to camp on.

I'd rather pay my $250 up front and not have the event turn into just another fucking shopping opportunity, with hamburger stands and beer booths every ten feet. I can get that at any other event in the frigging world. It would utterly destroy Burning Man to have vendors all over the place.

Which makes me wonder: have you actually been to the event? Are you a troll? Or do you really think this would be a good idea? I'd love to hear a description of a Burning Man, with vending, that doesn't turn the stomach of the staunchest capitalist and curdle milk at fifty paces.
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Postby Do_Japan » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:56 pm

No ive never been, i was just turned off by the whole event when i read how you dont allow money in the city, but it costs $250 to get in
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Postby Flux » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:05 am

It costs money to put on an event of the magnitude of Burning Man. We pay up front for a ticket, and then get to spend an entire week blessedly free of commercial advertising, vendors, hawkers, salesmen, and hustlers.

If you want to get in somewhere cheap and then spend the entire time in a commercial environment, go to your local swap meet or county fair. They'll be happy to take your $5 at the gate, and then you can wander aisle after aisle of goods for sale.

Burning Man is not about commerce. It's about community, art, performance, participation, self-reliance, self-expression, and freely giving and receiving.

I realize it's hard to picture, but trust me: it's an experience like none other. There's a reason that 30,000 people are willing to spend good money for a ticket, drive many hours out into the desert, withstand the harsh environment, and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars and hours perparing for the event.
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:27 am

Do_Japan wrote:No ive never been, i was just turned off by the whole event when i read how you dont allow money in the city, but it costs $250 to get in


He's kidding right?
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Postby rogue agent » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:57 am

Do_Japan wrote:No ive never been, i was just turned off by the whole event when i read how you dont allow money in the city, but it costs $250 to get in


There are enormous costs associated with the event. The Bureau of Land Management charges around $500,000 just for use of the land. Then there's enough Port-O-Potties for 30,000 people (plus cleaning them out every day), water trucks to wet down the streets, generators & fuel for Center Camp, building materials for the Man & other structures, scholarships for sponsored art & performances (Rev Billy & the Church of Stop Shopping Choir!), radios for Rangers & other support personnel, I could go on & on. Speaking of which, does anybody have the URL for the BMorg's financial sheet handy? I went looking for it & couldn't find it.

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Postby technopatra » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:51 am

Do_Japan wrote:No ive never been, i was just turned off by the whole event when i read how you dont allow money in the city


Let me take this moment to wax euphoric about being money-free for 7 days.

Arguments for or against capitalism aside, money causes stress. There is no doubt about it. You have to carry it with you. You may not have enough for what you want to do with it. You are constantly concerned with making it or not making it. You know that, in the end, having money in your pocket is the only thing to keep you from being hungry, cold, homeless. The amount of money you have often affects how others regard you. And how you regard yourself.

In everyday life, you are bombarded with advertising. It's everywhere - tv, internet, newspapers, billboards, buses. I am constantly being attacked by being told I am missing something in my life if I don't buy a particular item. I spend a lot of energy combating these messages to truly believe that I am NOT too fat, too thin, too unfeminine, too mainstream, too fringe, too smart, too stupid, too uncool, too poor, too unfashionable, too unpopular, too whatever to deserve happiness.

Burning Man provides me with a much needed respite from all of that stress. The feeling I have when I stash my wallet away, not to see it for a week is, to me, one of true freedom and security. I know that all my needs, even the ones I'm not yet aware of, are going to be satisfied in one way or another. I am not faced with any awkwardness about who should pay what or when. I do not have to count my change to make sure someone isn't ripping me off. I am removed from the obligation of mistrusting others, just in case they are trying to screw me.

I am able to walk around the city knowing that I am not oppressing anyone, exploiting child labor or migrant workers. I am happy in the knowledge that anything I obtain throughout the week I obtain because someone just thinks I am nice enough to be nice to.

There are more academic arguments for a de-commodified existence, but for me, it just comes down to feeling good about myself and towards my fellow human, because there is no "transaction" - they don't want anything from me but my attention, respect, and good conversation.
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:52 am

Why bother expaining anything to this person?
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Postby technopatra » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:56 am

rogue agent wrote: Speaking of which, does anybody have the URL for the BMorg's financial sheet handy? I went looking for it & couldn't find it.


The 2002 one is here: http://afterburn.burningman.com/02/financial.html

The 2003 one is still being written. We are hoping to publish the 2003 AfterBurn Report by the end of January.
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Postby Bob » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:25 am

Do_Japan --

What sort of vendor(s) did you have in mind?
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Postby Do_Japan » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:32 am

Vendors that make money.
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Postby Kinetic II » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:47 am

DE FACTO wrote:Why bother expaining anything to this person?


There are some people who are not aware that an environment like BM's no commerce zone (excluding center camp) even exists. And answering a question like this is why this board exists....the ORG put it up to spread awareness of what the event is and how it works, among other reasons.

I see this as a core question, a valid question. And I have to agree, it's so nice to put the wallet away for a week...sometimes longer. And everything Technopatra says I have to agree with. So much so I'm going to save her reply as another piece of why I love BM so much.
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Postby Ivy » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:50 am

Vendors that make money.


What does it matter if the vendors make money? As long as they pay a fee to the Org to set up their sales area, it doesn't matter if they make money or not.

This point is moot.
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Postby ramen » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:55 am

Do_Japan wrote:Vendors that make money.


The subtext to the no-vendors rule is that art and self-expression are human attributes that existed long before the market economy. By prohibiting vendors and commerce, the participants are of necessity forced to rely on their own inner resources and those of the community to create the event, along with the vast amount of vendor-purchased materials they bring along with them.

You can buy magic in a box, but it's a lot more fun making your own.

I'm glad Do_Japan is actually participating in this thread. More often you see posters doing a hit-and-run after posting something that ignites the board antibodies to attack.

If you have nothing to contribute in the way of art or personal expression, then indeed the Burn is not for you. It is so very cool to be welcomed into a camp for free and offered food, drink and entertainment simply because I am there. No vendor is going to approximate that experience without infusions of cold, hard currency and still it won't be as personal or intimate.

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Postby Isotopia » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:07 am

Why bother expaining anything to this person?


For the very same reason that half the board had to slam you when you made your intital entries here Defacto... I mean um, Diggiman. Because some people are clueless when they first get here. Cluelessness is not a bad thing BTW. Most people given the opportunity will state their reasons, ideas, etc. and in doing so pass on that might be consider a mild version of collective wisdom to people who initially appear to be green to this board.

As naive as the poster's question(s) may seem at least we're not running around having to deal with the innumerable, juvenile threads that your alter-ego slammed us with a few weeks back. I'll take ten 'Do_Japans' to even one of your many aliases.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:40 am

Isotopia wrote: I'll take ten 'Do_Japans' to even one of your many aliases.


Amen, o well dressed one. Though Mr. De Facto, you have made some intelligent postings recently. Please keep at it- if I wanted mindless ego drivel- I would tune into political rallies instead of online general weirdness. Initially you were that buzzing static that forces me to turn the knob in order to get to the real radio station.
The other, other white meat.
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Postby Last Real Burner » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:58 am

Do_Japan, why don't I sell you a $20 T-Shirt, tell you how great Burningman use to be, show you a couple of jpgs, and you skip the event entirely. Thereby saving you $230.

"Deja moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before."

exceedingly,
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Postby stuart » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:34 am

the $175 you pay for the ticket is nothing compared to the cost of...

booze for say, 3,000 mojitos
multiple hundred dollar junkets to home depot
generator rental or purchase
truck rental
gas for the genny
costumes
piles of drugs (if you are so inclined)
P.A. gear
projection equipment
fabric
costumes
goggles
etc.
etc

shit man, this year my ticket was less than 10% of my total BM budget.
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Postby Last Real Burner » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:38 am

Don't forget the blinkies...

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Postby Flux » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:56 am

Do_Japan wrote:Vendors that make money.

Counterfeiters?
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Postby Flux » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:57 am

technopatra wrote:Let me take this moment to wax euphoric about being money-free for 7 days.

Bravo, technopatra! You make some good points, and make them well.
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Postby thoughtsurfer » Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:40 am

Do_Japan, let me just say that Burning Man proves to me that the best things in life are still free...creativity, inspiration, insanity, naked booties, rides in whale cars, pink-fur strip clubs and smiling faces (that are NOT emoticons, thank you very much...)

It would be very inconvenient to have to carry money or cart around shopping bags when I know my costumes DON'T have pockets, and my furry bike doesn't have a "shopping bag carrying compartment"...

If you really want to get the point, buy your ticket and show up...
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best things in life are free

Postby III » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:04 pm

>naked booties

<img src="http://www.cultureshark.net/tgoesh/ass1.jpg">

you're welcome.
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Re: best things in life are free

Postby Blenderhead » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:30 pm

III wrote:>naked booties

<img src="http://www.cultureshark.net/tgoesh/ass1.jpg">

you're welcome.


Goddammit Trey! TMI! TMI!
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Postby Chai Guy » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:43 pm

I feel the ticket prices are too high as well, and I don't like paying twice to use the land (once in taxes and once through my ticket).

However, your assumption that letting in vendors would eliminate the ticket cost is false.

Here are some examples of festivals, and their ticket prices, all of which offer $20 t-shirts and $10 beers.

Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Festival=4 Day Combo Rate: $85
Coachella Music Festival=$75 per day (2 day festival)
Lollapalooza= $69.50 (one day only) plus saturation advertising by Microsoft's Xbox and mega-promoter/communications giant Clear Channel
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Re: best things in life are free

Postby drowned_saved » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:55 pm

III wrote:>naked booties

<img src="http://www.cultureshark.net/tgoesh/ass1.jpg">

you're welcome.

ummm...
i'm going to politely ask that your crush on me be rescinded.
our two asses (assuming that's yours there) in one sack could affect the planet adversely.
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:57 pm

juvenile threads that your alter-ego slammed us with a few weeks back. I'll take ten 'Do_Japans' to even one of your many aliases.


many? i only have 2.
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:07 pm

juvenile threads that your alter-ego slammed us with a few weeks back. I'll take ten 'Do_Japans' to even one of your many aliases.


Also, just a suggestion. it would be nice if it would be posted (since there are some inaccuarcies in the above statement) if some examples that could be made using the "juvenile threads that my alter-ego slammed y'all with"?

if a few would feel not to lazy to post.

just a suggestion. and no insult intended.

and welcome Do_Japan
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Postby DE FACTO » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:18 pm

juvenile threads that your alter-ego slammed us with a few weeks back. I'll take ten 'Do_Japans' to even one of your many aliases.




better yet, to avoid thread drift (because I like this thread) could some one create a thread of whichever title or topic and I'll be there to answer.
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Postby Badger » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:56 pm

I don't think your past infractions on the board warrant yet another thread.

That and your general inability to reply to or provide marginally lucid, cohesive replies (sans the childish and defensive posturing you exhibit) to the buckets of criticism already thrown your way makes me think that such an endeavor would be pointless.

Just my .02 Padawan
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