User Guidelines doc?

We're doing it wrong...we know

Postby Chai Guy » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:46 pm

To address the first: it isn't fear, it's the fact that we can't run a live meeting and type into a discussion boards at the same time.


I didn't mean to imply that you were afraid, that's the feeling I get behind other's that work in my work environment.

No, you can't hold a "Live" meeting and type at the same time, but I thought the idea here was to incorporate people that couldn't be in San Francisco at 6:30pm Pacific Time, Thursday, January 15th. That being the case, it would work if everyone was sitting in front of a Terminal. (I'm guessing you guys have enough computers for everyone to be sitting in front of one during the meeting?)

I have not personally had good experiences with real-time chatting, but that's because I type very, very badly, and I talk with my hands


I can actually type faster than I can speak, and I can read and understand faster than I can listen and understand. Oh Well!

I did some research today and I wasn't able to find any free Instant Messaging services that offered voice. I experimented with Netmeeting but couldn't get it to work, and even if it did work it would only function in a Windows environment.

We could all use an Instant Messenger like Yahoo or Jabber (available for Mac, Win, & Linux) and have someone volunteer to type for Technopatra while she gestures on a web cam.


I set up a wiki page for Eplaya guidelines here:
http://tinyurl.com/2snor

A wiki page is basically a web page that can be edited and added to by anyone. You can check out and add your ideas to it. If you have any questions you can PM me. You can also find the page by going to
http://www.seedwiki.com and searching for Eplayaguidelines
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Postby Guest » Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:24 am

Chai Guy wrote:
No, you can't hold a "Live" meeting and type at the same time, but I thought the idea here was to incorporate people that couldn't be in San Francisco at 6:30pm Pacific Time, Thursday, January 15th. That being the case, it would work if everyone was sitting in front of a Terminal. (I'm guessing you guys have enough computers for everyone to be sitting in front of one during the meeting?)


ROTFLMAO.

Whew (wipes eyes), I'm afraid you vastly overestimate our resources. Some folks have their own laptops, we have 3 computers that are open for general use in the middle of the office, and maybe a couple that could be used in the tech room. Even if we had extras lying about, we'd have to be in different places and all participate online instead of being in the same room, which defeats the actual purpose - to have a cohesive conversation to hammer out a postable draft of these docs.

Chai Guy wrote:I can actually type faster than I can speak, and I can read and understand faster than I can listen and understand. Oh Well!


I can understand via listening & reading at about the same, I think, but there's no way I can type faster than I can speak. I'm not sure anyone can. In case you hadn't noticed, I've got kind of a big mouth. My goal is actually to listen more than speak, tho, so if someone wants to transcribe for me, a thousand thanks.

Chai Guy wrote:I did some research today and I wasn't able to find any free Instant Messaging services that offered voice. I experimented with Netmeeting but couldn't get it to work, and even if it did work it would only function in a Windows environment.

I set up a wiki page for Eplaya guidelines here:
http://tinyurl.com/2snor


Thanks so much for exploring our alternatives, CG. Providing better options for including remote volunteers is a constant issue for us. My preferred tactic of encouraging people to move here only works part of the time.

We use wikis on the extranet, too, so hopefully this will be familiar, comfortable territory for some. Thanks again for setting it up.
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Postby Chai Guy » Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:13 pm

I just posted the agenda that was sent to me by Technopatra on the wiki page for all to browse and add to if so desired.
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Postby Booker » Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:34 pm

Chai Guy, yer my hero for setting up this wiki, whatever use it gets. Thanks, man. I'll check it out after my class.
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Webcam Chatroom

Postby spanky » Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:34 pm

webcam is Yahoo:

brc_engineering

sign in to chat

~Spanky
~Spanky

\<>/
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Postby technopatra » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:27 pm

Argh! That last guest post was me. I really, really think I've got it fixed this time.
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Postby III » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:21 am

>I invite you to consider that this reaction is you expressing fear that you will be cut out of the process

i'd say more that it was a fear that the process would not be what i expected it to be (i was really less concerned with my own input than with community input in general).

of course, it's clear to me now that i owe you an apology. and probably some cabana boy time. i really appreciate that you manage to not only hold some great ideals, but actually put them into practice (something i'm finding i might need to go back and work on, urk.)
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Postby Booker » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:38 am

Hey, don't miss this announcement: http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?t=2762

We get only a couple of days to review the draft and comment once it's posted, then it becomes official, so I guess we'd better be busy about it. No doubt any new comments will be considered, as technopatra promises, and the draft itself will look pretty familiar, I expect. Still two days isn't much time for any sort of detailed discussion at all. But let's see what pops up . . .

(Thanks to Foam for the alert!)
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Postby technopatra » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:52 am

III wrote:> and probably some cabana boy time.


Woohoo!! You pick the beach.
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Postby technopatra » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:57 am

Booker wrote:We get only a couple of days to review the draft and comment once it's posted, then it becomes official, so I guess we'd better be busy about it. No doubt any new comments will be considered, as technopatra promises, and the draft itself will look pretty familiar, I expect. Still two days isn't much time for any sort of detailed discussion at all. But let's see what pops up . . .


Yup, it's pretty much Trey's guidelines with a couple of tweaks/additions. The etf list is reviewing it today, to make sure I captured everything we discussed in the meeting on Thurs, then I want to post it tonight for community review.

BTW the terms of service are also being reviewed. They were written with the community's feedback here in mind, but that is a business agreement, and will, therefore, not be subject to further approval by the eplayans. In any case, I don't think there is much in there for anyone to object to - it's the usual legal CYA but also explicitly states that you own your own content, no one can spam you, harassment is not allowed, etc. etc.
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Eplaya Guidelines Ready for Community Review

Postby admin » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:06 am

Thank you, everyone, for your participation. Please keep your comments in this thread so I can find them. Even if we can not make every suggested change, we will try to address them.

Please try to get your feedback in by Friday, Jan 23rd. We will incorporate your feedback over the weekend and post these officially as soon as possible.

mwah-

~technopatra~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EPLAYA COMMUNITY GUIDELINES

These guidelines were developed based on community input and best practices from existing bbs’. It is the goal of these guidelines to help foster a strong, supportive community.


Philosophy

- The ePlaya exists to support the Burning Man community.

- In order to do so, it must support the interests of ongoing ePlaya
community members who may wish to discuss a variety subjects that are only peripheral to the actual Burning Man event. This also includes those Burning Man community members who briefly interact online and those who are joining the community and wish to gain a better understanding of Burning Man.

- Everyone is capable of contributing positively to the community, and a variety of viewpoints are both expected and encouraged.

Expected Behavior

- Before posting messages, take some time to read the forums and get a sense of how people interact. Coming on like a bull in a china shop will not win friends – respecting the ongoing flow of conversation will.

- There are different areas for different purposes within the ePlaya. Please respect their intended use, and keep on topic, especially when creating new threads, e.g., do not post political discussions in the Newbie area, etc.

- Personal attacks are unwelcome.

- Illegal activities are unwelcome.

- The ePlaya is a no-commerce zone. Recommending a good deal you found is acceptable, gifting is always encouraged. Advertising items or services for sale will not be tolerated.

- Contributions should be intelligible and add value to the discussion.

- Your words are a reflection on you. They are how you will be judged by others. Be careful in how you present yourself. Once you have committed your words, you will have to stand by them and coexist in the community, as they cannot be edited or deleted.

- We encourage you to represent yourself as you are known in everyday life and on the playa. Being yourself on the ePlaya goes a long way to building lasting, trusting relationships. Multiple identities are discouraged.

- Remember that there is a thinking, feeling human behind every username.

Consequences

It is the goal of the administrators to exercise the powers set forth here in a fair and egalitarian manner. In most situations, efforts to mediate the issues surrounding complaints will be attempted before action is taken against violators.

Upon complaint, or personal observation of violation of the expected behaviors, administrators may take any of the following actions:

- Topics or threads that are inappropriate for a certain discussion area may be moved or redirected to a more appropriate folder.

- Personal attacks via username, topic or thread may result in the immediate deactivation of the account. User will be notified via email of the action.

- Cross-posting may result in freezing repeated threads with a message notifying users to continue in one appropriate thread. The original cross-posting user will be notified of the action via email and reminded of the community guidelines against cross-posting.

- Topics or threads intended for commercial gain may result in immediate deletion of same.

- Multiple violations will result in the revocation of thread creation and/or posting privileges.

- Continued or extreme violations will result in account deactivation.

Privacy rights

- Your words are your own. However, this is a public forum, and anyone (even unregistered users) may read them.

- Information collected during registration, but not authorized for dissemination, will only be used by the administrators of the ePlaya if necessary to administer the board, and will not be used for any other purposes by Black Rock City, LLC or disseminated to any other organizations.

- Burning Man will not honor requests to delete Content nor deactivate user accounts upon complaint by other users, but will investigate such accusations and determine whether the ePlaya Terms of Service and Guidelines have been violated.

Modifications

These policies are subject to revision in order to allow maximum possible freedom of expression while protecting individuals' immediate experience. Should changes occur which affect the potential privacy of your information, you will be notified and allowed to remove such information before the changes take effect. Modifications to these policies will be posted in the Announcements thread.
Last edited by admin on Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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A few Q's

Postby enthropic » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:52 am

-''Advertising items or services for sale will not be tolerated.''
-"Topics or threads intended for commercial gain may result in immediate
deletion of same."


In the I Need, I Have, threads some people are looking for certan materials, objects, ect..for their projects. I think we need a place for people to get that certan item/s. I think that a person trying to give a resonable deal on a, lets say ''golf cart''. He/She should be allowed to display the item. I think it would be wrong to go as far as listing a price however, leaving a method of contact so the topic can be dicussed in privat should be allowed, I think.

-''Once you have committed your words, you will have to stand by them and coexist in the community, as they cannot be edited......''

I a'm a very bad speller. Will this mean I will not be able to fix my posts?

Thank you Admin!
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Re: A few Q's

Postby admin » Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:22 am

enthropic wrote:''Advertising items or services for sale will not be tolerated.''
-"Topics or threads intended for commercial gain may result in immediate
deletion of same."


In the I Need, I Have, threads some people are looking for certan materials, objects, ect..for their projects. I think we need a place for people to get that certan item/s. I think that a person trying to give a resonable deal on a, lets say ''golf cart''. He/She should be allowed to display the item. I think it would be wrong to go as far as listing a price however, leaving a method of contact so the topic can be dicussed in privat should be allowed, I think.


We went around and around on this one. There are a couple of reasons why we chose to go no-commerce.

-We felt that opening to some commerce here would throw the door wide open to spammers
- the bbs makes a poor substitute for [url="http://www.craigslist.org"]craigslist[/url] and [url="http://www.obtainium.net"]obtainium.net[/url].


enthropic wrote:-''Once you have committed your words, you will have to stand by them and coexist in the community, as they cannot be edited......''

I a'm a very bad speller. Will this mean I will not be able to fix my posts?


There've been a few hot eplaya debates about the ability to delete and edit posts. The majority of the folks appeared to be against allowing it - while it provides a nice out for those of us (yes, me too) who do not type or spell particularly well, it allows folsk to remove or edit their posts days, months etc after the fact, causing much confusion and irritation.

We are working on a compromise, however - there is a mod that will allow us to keep a post open for editing for a window of time. Currently the mod we have only keeps it open until someone replies, but we are going to try to change it or find anther mod that will give us a specific time frame - like 15 minutes. This will allow folsk like you and me to catch our mistakes when we view it after posting, but not allow for the historical conversation to be damaged. This sense of permanence should also encourage folks to be a little more thoughtful when they post .[/url]

~technopatra~
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Postby enthropic » Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:35 am

"We felt that opening to some commerce here would throw the door wide open to spammers."

no doubt. :oops:

"Currently the mod we have only keeps it open until someone replies, but we are going to try to change it or find anther mod that will give us a specific time frame - like 15 minutes."

I think this is sufficient.

"This sense of permanence should also encourage folks to be a little more thoughtful when they post."

Good point..

Thanks again.

I dont see that there will be much discussion on the topic. Most people will just like to see them take effect.

James
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Postby Chai Guy » Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:48 pm

This looks good to me. I'm glad there is a clear policy on the no commerce thing, and I think the ability to stop to the crossposting and posting in the wrong folders is going to help make the eplaya a more enjoyable place.

Thanks Trey for coming up with the basis for these Guidelines.

Thanks Technopatra for all of your hard work (and for all the of the work done by the rest of the eplaya team).
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Postby Tancorix » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:41 pm

I have no objections at this point and want this to get a green light, ASAP.
But as I mentioned on the ETF in private, it would be nice to revisit this 30 days from now and see if adjustments are needed. And it sounds like that's going to happen.
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Postby Booker » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:49 pm

>>[your words] cannot be edited or deleted

The edit function is to be disabled? I disagree with that decision, if so. At the least, I want a window of time after I post to correct typos, add thoughts that occured after I hit post, tone down inflammatory language, etc.

>>- Personal attacks are unwelcome.

Needs more detail. Differences in what feels like a personal attack are to be expected, and this doc is intended primarily to reduce that sort of uncertainty. I suggest something along the lines of this.

"Opinions about what constitutes a personal attack may vary. Users of the e-playa are expected to avoid posting language or images critical of another user's identity or characterizing that person in a negative way. Posts will sometimes challenge the opinions or information in other posts; even strongly worded opinions are not personal attacks, as long as they focus on post content rather than on critically characterizing users themselves."

>- Illegal activities are unwelcome.

Needs clarification? E.g., the e-playa may be used to discuss experiences with illegal substances, but not to arrange buys--right?

>Advertising items or services for sale will not be tolerated.

Well, except for event tickets? (Also coffee? *ducks*)

>Contributions should be intelligible and add value to the discussion.

How will this standard be interpretted? According to the preference of the admins? According to how many complaints are received? Needs to be more explicit. Should say explicitly that quips & wisecracks are understood to add value? (Some would disagree, and senses of humor vary.) Or just add a disclaimer that this is a recommendation to be enforced on the honor system (which I suspect will be the case in practice)?

>>Multiple identities are discouraged.

I'd say "multiple logins" to be more specific.

>>exercise the powers set forth here in a fair and egalitarian manner.

"fair and even-handed manner"? Egalitarian is tending a bit toward frou-frou political theory, imo.

Need to add something about cross-posting under Expected Behavior. There's a consequence laid out, but not definition of what the word is understood to mean.

>>Cross-posting may result in freezing repeated threads

"freezing redundant threads"

>>- Multiple violations will result in the revocation of thread creation and/or posting privileges.

Why no elaboration of a process or standards a la the 3-strikes discussion? Or is it to be at the discretion of the admins? Again, the point here it to say specfically what's over the line, or so I thought.

>>- Burning Man will not honor requests to delete Content nor deactivate user accounts upon complaint by other users, but will investigate such accusations and determine whether the ePlaya Terms of Service and Guidelines have been violated.

"will not immediately honor"? You say the requests won't be honored, then you say under what terms you will honor them (after investigation). Instead: "In response to requests for enforcement action by e-playa users, the admins will investigate and determine . . . "

OK, that's picky enough for one afternoon, I think. *Smooch.*
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Postby technopatra » Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:54 pm

Tancorix wrote:I have no objections at this point and want this to get a green light, ASAP.
But as I mentioned on the ETF in private, it would be nice to revisit this 30 days from now and see if adjustments are needed. And it sounds like that's going to happen.


I agree, thinks it's a great idea to revisit in 30 days. We should do the same check in with various mods as they are installed, too.
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Postby technopatra » Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:52 pm

Booker wrote:>>[your words] cannot be edited or deleted

The edit function is to be disabled? I disagree with that decision, if so. At the least, I want a window of time after I post to correct typos, add thoughts that occured after I hit post, tone down inflammatory language, etc.


Please see my response to Enthropic when he asked the same question earlier in this thread.

Booker wrote:
>>- Personal attacks are unwelcome.

Needs more detail. Differences in what feels like a personal attack are to be expected, and this doc is intended primarily to reduce that sort of uncertainty. I suggest something along the lines of this.

"Opinions about what constitutes a personal attack may vary. Users of the e-playa are expected to avoid posting language or images critical of another user's identity or characterizing that person in a negative way. Posts will sometimes challenge the opinions or information in other posts; even strongly worded opinions are not personal attacks, as long as they focus on post content rather than on critically characterizing users themselves."


I'd like to hear more from other folks on this before changing it. I think that by leaving it as it, folks have to consider what a personal attack is and anything that requires people to think a bit more before they hit send is ok by me. But I'm interested to hear how others feel.

Booker wrote:>- Illegal activities are unwelcome.

Needs clarification? E.g., the e-playa may be used to discuss experiences with illegal substances, but not to arrange buys--right?


Wrong. This is a public space, and anyone can read what's here. "Anyone" includes law enforcement, the media, and your mother. We have to have a zero-tolerance policy, just like on the real playa.

Booker wrote:>Advertising items or services for sale will not be tolerated.

Well, except for event tickets? (Also coffee? *ducks*)


Again, please see the reply to Entrophic's question re: commerce.

Booker wrote:>Contributions should be intelligible and add value to the discussion.

How will this standard be interpretted? According to the preference of the admins? According to how many complaints are received? Needs to be more explicit. Should say explicitly that quips & wisecracks are understood to add value? (Some would disagree, and senses of humor vary.) Or just add a disclaimer that this is a recommendation to be enforced on the honor system (which I suspect will be the case in practice)?


There can be no "enforcement" on this point - we are not going to take any action against something that is unintelligible. Merely a reminder that you should try to make sense.

Booker wrote:>>Multiple identities are discouraged.

I'd say "multiple logins" to be more specific.


There is a one-to-one relationship between identities and logins. how is "logins" more specific?[/quote]

Booker wrote:>>exercise the powers set forth here in a fair and egalitarian manner.

"fair and even-handed manner"? Egalitarian is tending a bit toward frou-frou political theory, imo.


Is this a joke or are you serious? I'm not trying to be facetious, I really can't tell.

Booker wrote:Need to add something about cross-posting under Expected Behavior. There's a consequence laid out, but not definition of what the word is understood to mean.


Good point.

Booker wrote:>>Cross-posting may result in freezing repeated threads

"freezing redundant threads"


hmmm...redundant to me is broader than repeated. I would not want to freeze 2 threads that were just similar. But 2 threads that were created by the same person for the same purposes...that sound more like repeated to me. But I'm not married to it.

Booker wrote:>>- Multiple violations will result in the revocation of thread creation and/or posting privileges.

Why no elaboration of a process or standards a la the 3-strikes discussion? Or is it to be at the discretion of the admins? Again, the point here it to say specfically what's over the line, or so I thought.


The 3-strike paradigm is too difficult to realky track - like if a person crosspost in 2 threads, it's clearly a first strike. But if they do it on 30 threads, it's damaging enough to need to be dealt with more severly.

If you read all the bullet points in this one together, you'll see a clear chain of events. Consequences for initial offenses are spelled out for each case. "Multiple offenses" covers anything that happens in quantity. Contonued or repeated cover anything after they've been approached or had action taken against them.

>>- Burning Man will not honor requests to delete Content nor deactivate user accounts upon complaint by other users, but will investigate such accusations and determine whether the ePlaya Terms of Service and Guidelines have been violated.

Booker wrote:"will not immediately honor"? You say the requests won't be honored, then you say under what terms you will honor them (after investigation). Instead: "In response to requests for enforcement action by e-playa users, the admins will investigate and determine . . . "


The full phrase here is "will not honor...upon complaint by other users..." os it means the same thing, but I agree that your phrasing is clearer.

Booker wrote:OK, that's picky enough for one afternoon, I think. *Smooch.*


Thanks!
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Postby Chai Guy » Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:02 pm

I'd like to hear more from other folks on this before changing it. I think that by leaving it as it, folks have to consider what a personal attack is and anything that requires people to think a bit more before they hit send is ok by me. But I'm interested to hear how others feel.



For example is calling someone a fuctard/fuckwit/asshat/butwipe a personal attack?
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Postby technopatra » Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:12 pm

Chai Guy wrote:
I'd like to hear more from other folks on this before changing it. I think that by leaving it as it, folks have to consider what a personal attack is and anything that requires people to think a bit more before they hit send is ok by me. But I'm interested to hear how others feel.



For example is calling someone a fuctard/fuckwit/asshat/butwipe a personal attack?


Exactly the gray area I mean. Sometimes? How do we determine what is said in jest or not? It depends on the people involved, and the context of their conversation.

For the most part, it's not a personal attack unless someone complains. Good lord, we sure as hell can't take admin action every time "fucktard" gets thrown around.

You guys have hit the nail on the head tho - the hard part is figuring out how granular to get with these. I'm open to suggestions, but am leaning toward keeping a broad definition (or rather, an implied one) that will allow for play within the community.
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Postby Badger » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:09 pm

Ditto.

Simple and concise.
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Postby Booker » Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:21 pm

a one-to-one relationship between identities and logins


Not really. I might write up some tongue-in-cheek post about the SotU Address and sign it G.W. Bush, but if it's posted under this account, everyone knows who wrote it. I would be playing with identity there (imo) without hiding behind mystery logins. But I imagine the understanding is as you state it, and I'm thinking in wider terms than the e-playa about what identity means. No biggie either way.

I do think even-handed is a better term for the point being made than egalitarian. Too picky? I'm a copy editor. Whadaya want?

Personal attacks: Calling names is a personal attack to me. No doubt the admins should get interested only when it gets vicious. What I'm worried about in that part is false positives: People feeling personally attacked because someone disagreed with their opinion or challenged their information using strong language. The distinction I want to emphasize is this: If the perceived attack is pointed at the post, the admins aren't interested in refereeing; if it's pointed at the person, that's unwelcome behavior, possibly subject to sanction.

And if the expectations and consequences are left so vague, what's the gain from articulating these guidelines? In that case, I'd have to agree with Bob that his two-sentence document was good enough. 'Course, no one wants the freakin' tax code either.
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Postby Booker » Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:12 am

Well, I guess those guidelines weren't a particularly hot topic, eh? I'm a bit concerned that they'll come under a bit sharper scrutiny as soon as they're invoked to justify admin response in specific situations.

But time will tell.
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Postby III » Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:52 pm

you could be right, but as we've seen from recent discussions, there's always going to be bitching from somewhere. the difficult part will be to separate the wheat from the chaff, as far as complaints go.

(there may some complaints about the terms of service, but that's primarily a legal document, concerned with preserving the providers rights and limiting liability, as opposed to describing the goals and intents of the board)
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Postby Chai Guy » Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:33 pm

the difficult part will be to separate the wheat from the chaff, as far as complaints go


Indeed, I guess my concern would be that certain veterans might be allowed to get away with more because the admins or whoever realize where they are coming from while a newbie might be viewed as just being vicious, when in fact they are really just trying to fit in by being sarcastic.


Also, just curious if the following posts would be considered "commerce" or what?

1. I'm moving to S.F. and need to find a Job
2. I'm moving to S.F. and need a room mate
3. I'm moving to S.F. and need an Apartment
4. I have this great drum that I will trade you for _________
5. I'm looking to hire people that spin Poi for a Monster Truck Show I'm promoting.
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catching up

Postby technopatra » Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:29 pm

Hi guys, sorry for the radio silence. I had to fly to LA for a couple of days to attend my grandfather's funeral. Ugh. People just shouldn't be allowed to die. Wish I could fit that in the guidelines somewhere.

Anyway, to catch up...

Chai Guy wrote:
the difficult part will be to separate the wheat from the chaff, as far as complaints go


Indeed, I guess my concern would be that certain veterans might be allowed to get away with more because the admins or whoever realize where they are coming from while a newbie might be viewed as just being vicious, when in fact they are really just trying to fit in by being sarcastic.


I see this as a perfectly reasonable concern, Chai Guy, however we did state that the informal policy is to communicate first, invoke the guidelines later, whenever possbile - which would be every situation that is not as blatantly attacking as WSPR's more viciously-named threads.

Chai Guy wrote:Also, just curious if the following posts would be considered "commerce" or what?

1. I'm moving to S.F. and need to find a Job
2. I'm moving to S.F. and need a room mate
3. I'm moving to S.F. and need an Apartment
4. I have this great drum that I will trade you for _________
5. I'm looking to hire people that spin Poi for a Monster Truck Show I'm promoting.


1. no
2. no
3. no
4. yes
5. yes

The reasoning here:

a) having a blanket 'no commerce fo any kind' guideline is easier to manage, both philosophically and practically, than one that allows some commerce but not all.

b) if you want to sell/buy/trade, you should go to Craigslist or other sites. That kind of "classifieds" is not handled particularly well by this system, and it scales very, very badly.

I had the same issue with the lost & found and personals but the initial desire for them seemed huge. There is a plan to provide better classifieds as we expand the amount of web content we have using Zope/plone, but it's a ways off.

Booker, I hear your concern about the lack of response so far, but I'm ok with it. This is meant to be iterative if needed, and I'm going to run with Tancorix's idea of a 30-day review, to open things up for comment again.

The goal for the guidelines was to be guidelines to help shape the community's expectations and sense of responsibility. Should these not prove to be the best basis for taking admin action (which, how many times can I say it, I hope to be minimal and infrequent), then we would need to expand the Terms of Service to spell things out more definitively.

We want to avoid that for as long as possible and instead keep on with the current philosophy of empowering the user community with the tools to define their own experience (in this case the guidelines, which they will use to remind themselves and others of what the eplaya's about), and codify more only if we have to.

Enforcement is another issue, which I'll address in a separate post for clarity's sake.
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Postby Chai Guy » Thu Jan 29, 2004 7:55 pm

Also, just curious if the following posts would be considered "commerce" or what?

1. I'm moving to S.F. and need to find a Job
2. I'm moving to S.F. and need a room mate
3. I'm moving to S.F. and need an Apartment
4. I have this great drum that I will trade you for _________
5. I'm looking to hire people that spin Poi for a Monster Truck Show I'm promoting.


1. no
2. no
3. no
4. yes
5. yes

I'm unclear as to why it's ok to create a post looking for a job, but not ok to create a post saying you have a job available. Just wondering.
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Postby Bob » Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:15 am

olive italics -- delete
red -- inserts
blue -- comments

EPLAYA COMMUNITY GUIDELINES (version 1.0)

In order to support a more useful and congenial forum for both new and more experienced Burning Man participants, these guidelines were developed based on community input volunteered suggestions and best practices from existing online communities bbs’. It is The goal of these guidelines is to help foster a strong, supportive community and a valuable archive of our collective art, craft, experiences, and inspirations.

[It's not a bbs, it's a Community Discussion Board.]

Philosophy

- The ePlaya exists to support the Burning Man community.

- In order to do so, it must support the interests of ongoing ePlaya
community members who may wish to discuss a variety subjects that are only peripheral to the actual Burning Man event. This also includes those Burning Man community members who briefly interact online and those who are joining the community and wish to gain a better understanding of Burning Man.

- Everyone is capable of contributing positively to the community, and a variety of viewpoints are both expected and encouraged.

Expected Behavior

- Before posting messages, please take some time to read the forums, and get a sense of how people interact, . Coming on like a bull in a china shop will not win friends – respecting and respect the ongoing flow of conversation will.

- There are different areas for different purposes within the ePlaya. Please respect their intended use, and keep on topic, especially when creating new threads, e.g., do not post political discussions in the Newbie area, etc.

- Personal attacks are unwelcome.

- Illegal activities are unwelcome. [Vague -- what speech is illegal? How does this apply to readers in Paris? Mombasa? Shanghai?]

- The ePlaya, similar to Burning Man, is intended as a no-commerce zone -- however, it's understood that both shopping and scavenging are a big part of event preparation. Recommending a good deal you found on reliable, playa-tested resources is acceptable, especially in response to someone's request; gifting, DIY advice, and alerts on freebies are is always encouraged. Advertising Please don't use the ePlaya as a marketplace to advertise items or services for sale will not be tolerated.

[Something more specific might be stated about advertising door-charge events, rent parties, help-fund-my-project cotillions, etc. And etiquette wrt parties in general. A consistent ethical view on perceived ePlaya commerce by arguably sincere independent lobbyists for arguably worthwhile independent projects for arguably independent and freely-gifted support, with larger theme camps and ever more Brobdingnagian art projects possibly unfairly benefitting from more de facto visibility, might be unresolvable in light of BRC LLC itself functioning as a nebulous money funnel.

WRT to typical behavior on the old eplaya -- say a camp such as Jungle! Jiminy! is having a Jam! Band! June! Jambalaya!!!! -- usually, the ads are just one-offs, they post and they're gone, but you can't be too harsh about jam bands. Nothing that would be more appropriate for eBay, Craig's List, or local rental agencies should be tolerated. This is not a rent board. None of Chai Guy's five examples are appropriate for the eplaya. Rental and roommate posts are boring, too city-centric, and this isn't a rent board. Trading = barter, and used drums are unsanitary.

This isn't a rent board, btw. This, and sex, are services you usually pay for elsewhere. Go there.

If you just need volunteers, that's different -- go ahead and gush about your pot luck on the eplaya all you want.

All that said, I have no problem with people advertising via their own private Profile blurb space.]


- Contributions should be intelligible and add value to the discussion. Contributions to discussion threads should be composed with due regard for the level of seriousness -- or frivolity -- of the original poster (OP), and the value your own thoughts might add to the mix.

- Your words are a reflection on you. They are how you will be judged by others. Be careful in how you present yourself. Once you have committed your words, you will have to stand by them and coexist in the community, as they cannot be edited or deleted.

- We encourage you to represent yourself as you are known in everyday life and on the playa. Being yourself on the ePlaya goes a long way to building lasting, trusting relationships. Multiple identities are discouraged.

- Remember that there is a thinking, feeling human behind every Lusername.

Consequences

It is the goal of the administrators to exercise the powers set forth here in a fair and egalitarian manner. In most situations, efforts to mediate the issues surrounding complaints will be attempted before action is taken against violators.

Upon complaint, or personal observation of violation of the expected behaviors, administrators may take any of the following actions:

- Topics or threads that are inappropriate for a certain discussion area may be moved or redirected to a more appropriate folder.

- Personal attacks via username, topic or thread may result in the immediate deactivation of the account. User will be notified via email of the action.

- Cross-posting Excessive posts which significantly interfere other users' experience of the discussion board, such as posting of large image files or of the same message content repetitively in multiple topic areas, may elicit warnings and corrective measures by the admin, as appropriate. result in freezing repeated threads with a message notifying users to continue in one appropriate thread. The original cross-posting user will be notified of the action via email and reminded of the community guidelines against cross-posting.

- Topics or threads intended for commercial gain may result in immediate deletion of same.

- Multiple violations will result in the revocation of thread creation and/or posting privileges.

- Continued or extreme violations will result in account deactivation and banishment to ultima Thule.

Privacy rights

- Your words are your own. However, this is a public forum, the content is archived, and anyone (even unregistered users) may read them.

- Information collected during registration, but not authorized for dissemination, will only be used by the administrators of the ePlaya if necessary to administer the board, and will not be used for any other purposes by Black Rock City, LLC or disseminated to any other organizations.

- Burning Man will not honor requests to delete Content nor deactivate user accounts upon complaint by other users, but will investigate such accusations and determine whether the ePlaya Terms of Service and Guidelines have been violated.

Modifications

These policies are subject to revision in order to allow maximum possible freedom of expression while protecting individuals' immediate experience. Should changes occur which affect the potential privacy of your information, you will be notified and allowed to remove such information before the changes take effect. Modifications to these policies will be posted in the Announcements thread.

[I still think my index-page blurb on the old eplaya is better. Takes up only a fraction of a screenful, so you can't avoid it during login.]
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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Postby Bob » Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:34 pm

Good thing this is a draft. Ya'll need to, like, omit needless words.

I've stayed away from the eplaya task force thing for a number of reasons -- the fact of the horse already being out of the barn and galloping down the road being the main.

Little done or said in a conference room is likely to affect the existing eplaya culture, but a document weighted heavily toward lists of do's & don'ts done up in a church-lady kind of tone may result in users, especially new ones, feeling as if they're enrolling in catechism class... or going off to detention. Kids will act up pretty much the same in detention as in regular class, as I recall.

Anyhow -- please note the hopefully positive statements I inserted at the top of my edits, above. I'd prefer that eplaya users reading the guidelines be left more with the feeling that they are empowered to make or break the story of Burning Man, rather than fearing that if they fuck up by violating some subpart of some vaguely configured subsection they'll be subjecting themselves to virtual electroshock treatment.

And along with appropriate positives, please pay some attention to the flow -- it should read like the Constitution, not 29 CFR 1910.120(e).

I appreciate the effort of those working on all this, but I appreciate more those who demonstrate their commitment to eplaya culture by continuing to wade into actual eplaya discussions. Implicit user guidelines should already be in our heads, after all -- I'd prefer any explicit set of guidelines be more like an Ashleigh Brilliant postcard we could tape on the monitor (over the smileys).

Image

I hope I can feel confident that Britton et al will continue to hack at the interface on their own per user requests made here, and make some effort to show us (l)users some progress on that. Can't be that hard to get rid of a few icons, omit needless alt-text, simplify the style sheets, condense the tables, and so on. My eyes are still hurting from squinting at the tiny text in this dainty little entry field, and it's driving me nuts.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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Bob
 
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
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Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

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