Thread Ownership

We're doing it wrong...we know

Postby III » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:29 am

>isn't it possible (and easy) to implement an "ignore this user"

possible yes, easy not so much (from what i can tell - everytime i think it should be pretty straightforward i start digging aorund in the phpbb code and give up when i can't make heads or tails of where i might start after about half an hour. it's a mess in there.)

and yes, that's what people mean by "plonk". the term came from usenet, where it represented the sound of an address being dropped into a killfile, which was (mong other things) a way to make people look like they'd disappeared.

methods i've seen on bulletin boards (web-x in particular) that seemed to work okay would just replace the body of someone's post with "[message blocked]". the only people who ever knew that someone had been ignored were the people who did the ignoring.

i'd still put, for me, navigation issues and thread subscription as a higher priority.
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Same message, different day.

Postby Kinetic II » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:41 am

I still think the core group could come back and clean this up.
I'm sidestepping the issue of why they should or shouldn't do it.
10 days of Badger, Precip, Trey, Isotopia, Ivy, even Lydia, Foamin, and others coming back over here would restore the signal to noise ratio that's been getting so much bitch time.

It might not even take that long, and it's very easy to do.

And when it happens, this whole plonk discussion will become irrelevant, unless a J.D. makes an appearance. That's why there's work going on regarding an eplaya FAQ list and a "code of conduct" that would set standards of behavior...let me rephrase that, set common sense guidelines that users need to follow. With the rules in place if anyone blatantly abuses the system they can be tossed out. I'm glossing over a lot of technicalities here but it's looking like it will happen.
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Postby Bob » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:52 am

Don Muerto wrote:
Bob wrote:There are no de facto moderators on the eplaya.

Ain't it the truth.


In case you missed the gist of my statements -- IMO the type of feature you suggest should exist in the context of an overall board philosophy -- ie, you've described the mechanics of it, but I think you should also make an argument for why it is good for Burning Man, and how you think it fits in with what you see as the purpose of its bbs. In addition, what type of people (if any) should be entrusted to enable gated topics, using what criteria (if any)?
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Postby Don Muerto » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:54 am

I think I sketched out my views of the feature vis a vis the board philosophy, but it was other's viewpoints I was (am) seeking in the same vein.
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Postby precipitate » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:12 pm

> de facto moderator [on the 3playa]

Well, maybe, but little if any moderation has happened over there. Thread
owners are more properly the moderators, and users who ignore threads.
No one's telling anyone what is or is not appropriate.

> I still think the core group could come back and clean this up.

K, it's not the "core group" of anything but the 3playa now. And "clean
this up" sounds like it's somehow our responsibility to rectify the asshole
behavior of others. It isn't. If this were my personal playground, I'd lay
down some ground rules, give a few notable users warning to clean up
their acts or be eliminated, and then start booting people. That'd work
great in my playground, but this ain't it. The assholes are going to have to
self-moderate for now, until the community guidelines are drafted and
reviewed. And even then, as Technopatra said, being annoying probably
isn't grounds for getting the boot.
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Postby technopatra » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:26 pm

precipitate wrote:> The assholes are going to have to
self-moderate for now, until the community guidelines are drafted and
reviewed. And even then, as Technopatra said, being annoying probably
isn't grounds for getting the boot.


And don't get me wrong - I really, really would like to just rip through this board, delete all the bullshit threads, remove some users ability to post new topics, take away some folks write permissions, and only allow those who consistently contribute to thoughtful discourse.

But the consequences of that would be so damaging - a bunch of pissed off users would just bail and the very folks that I love for their discourse would crucify me in a censorship debate.

This is a sticky subject, and we are trying to do the right thing. There has to be some minimal control - and the challenge we are facing is to figure out where the line between personal freedom and community respect lies. It's thin and it's subjective.

I expect that we will be criticized no matter how we slice it. Hopefully at least some folks will trust us in our intent to be fair.
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Postby antron » Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:36 pm

look, when i go to the playa, my *vehicle* is subject to a physical search. when i walk around, i see various le officers conducting their duties. loads of rules are enforced. and those activities support my community (perhaps in ways i might not agree with) to put on an excellent fucking camping trip.

why should the situation here be any different? this isn't the wide open spaces. this is a server under the burningman.com domain.

rather than hand-wringing, and worrying about potential reactions, why not simply act? of course there must be due thought and deliberation. certainly it would be best to be guided by principles clearly articulated. by all means tread lightly, but c'mon let's go.

of course there will be criticism -- have you read any of the drivel about larry? the criticism will be even more intense with success.

we're coming up to the time when the bm community really *needs* this board to be functional.
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Postby Kinetic II » Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:40 pm

We have 30 days, maybe a bit longer but not much. It looks like it's going to fall on the admins to clean the place up, and I hope someone pulls the trigger on it fast. We're losing core people right and left and the exodus has to stop.
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ignorance is bliss

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:53 pm

could be I am just naive... but... if people stopped feeling the need or desire to reply to ridiculous posts then the people posting wouldn't have anyone to continue the debate with... and after awhile wouldn't they just go away out of frustration.... seems to me as long as their needs are getting met by receiving the response (read; attention) then it incites them to continue.. and around and around they chase their tails... take a bite out of the circle... STOP REPLYING.....
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Postby precipitate » Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:56 pm

That's the DON'T FEED THE TROLLS theory. It only works if everyone
complies. So everyone, go ahead and give it a shot.
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Postby Kinetic II » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:08 pm

That works if your dealing with script kiddies, this is not that kind of situation and it flat out won't work. Your welcome to go for it if you wish.

http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile ... ll_faq.htm

This is a psychological conflict, and it's going to take measures with teeth to fix. Passive response has it's place. This is not it.
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Postby TestesInSac » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:26 pm

Not feeding the trolls won't work if trolls provide a foil for post whores to up their count.

So, OBtopic, how hard would it be to do away with the post counter?

Oh, and III, I could see why 'ignore user' would be tough, but what about thread ownership and thread ignore? Just from the technical perspective.
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Postby precipitate » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:29 pm

> what about thread ownership and thread ignore? Just from the technical
> perspective.

Judging from the fact that it only exists as a beta mod (someone's working
on it, but hasn't had it approved yet), it's either difficult or the rest of the
phpbb world is comprised of fuckwits. I give it an even 50-50.
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Postby Kinetic II » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:44 pm

The post count removal would be an equalizer of sorts. For newbies the post count could be intimidating...they might feel nobody will listen to them because their new. On the other hand there are post count whores of which I was one earlier. Removing the post count fixes those issues.

But...it kinda does away with a tool to indicate who the active people are on the board. The more I think about this, the more interesting post count removal becomes. Technopatra, if you read this, do you have any thoughts about it?

Also here's something to follow up my earlier post...Trey sent out links to the eplaya task force with resources for building online communities. I have the cite if anyone wants it, meanwhile this covers my approach to current eplaya issues.
------------ Begin Cut ---------------------------------------------------------
In computer-based communities, it is tempting to throw technological solutions at social problems. Someone programmed virtual guns? Delete them. Got an obnoxious user? Cancel their account. I will argue that social solutions are often more effective and also help to reinforce a sense of community.

I have had success with a psychoanalytic approach to dealing with problem users. Someone who is causing trouble probably wants attention. A heart to heart chat with a sympathetic system administrator can often solve the problem.

Technological interventions are rarely more than a band-aid for social
problems. However, social solutions require time, effort, and leadership.
Being able to take the time to engage each problem user in a dialogue is a
luxury that comes from having a small community size. Larger communities necessarily become bureaucracies; in a real sense, they cease to be communities at all.
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Postby III » Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:02 pm

>Just from the technical perspective.

because (from what i've seen) the code is distributed and indirect. it's difficult to actually figure out how phpbb actually does stuff. in theory, this would make it easier to create variations on a theme, but in practice, without having the framework documented, it becomes rather difficult to do *anything*.
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Postby precipitate » Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:49 pm

> it kinda does away with a tool to indicate who the active people are on
> the board.

May I suggest that an even cooler tool to indicate who the active people
are on the board is to read the fucking board? This goes back to part of
my complaint with folks who jump into a new forum, either don't fit the
community or go in guns blazing, and are then surprised when their
welcome is less than sunny. Lurk a bit. Pay attention. You'll know not only
who's posting a lot, but who's actually saying something.

And on that note, I was thrilled to see Technopatra's post in the Fuck
thread that she'd lost track of time reading the eplaya (sorry about the
soup, though). I think it's vital to have at least some members of the
group in charge of technical and policy decisions actively involved in the
community. Bravo. Brava. Whatever.
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Postby technopatra » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:39 pm

antron wrote:rather than hand-wringing, and worrying about potential reactions, why not simply act? of course there must be due thought and deliberation. certainly it would be best to be guided by principles clearly articulated. by all means tread lightly, but c'mon let's go.
.


We are going. It takes time. As I stated in my updates, we are first going to get the new skin up, then play with the mods. I found mods that will hopefully cover the biggest requests - ignore thread, last read, etc. They have to be installed and tested, and that can't hapen until our lead developer, Spanky, is back on Dec 6th.

The biggest black hole right now is the Community Guidelines, and as much as I would like to be, I am not empowered to just come up with a set and enforce them. All I can do is needle the folks who said they are working on it, and pass along helpful resources like the link you gave me. And yes, once they've been defined, they need to be approved by the PTB.

And regardless of other quoted sources, ignoring the trolls DOES significantly reduce the crap. Every time you reply to a troll posting you are extending the life of that thread and bringing it back to the top. You know this. If you stop replying, others will, too. it won't fix everything, but There's not a whole lot I can do when the folks complaining about the trolls are the very ones feeding them.
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Postby Bob » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:08 am

Bob wrote:In case you missed the gist of my statements -- IMO the type of feature you suggest should exist in the context of an overall board philosophy -- ie, you've described the mechanics of it, but I think you should also make an argument for why it is good for Burning Man, and how you think it fits in with what you see as the purpose of its bbs. In addition, what type of people (if any) should be entrusted to enable gated topics, using what criteria (if any)?

Don Muerto wrote:I think I sketched out my views of the feature vis a vis the board philosophy, but it was other's viewpoints I was (am) seeking in the same vein.


IMO, you stated your reasons mostly in terms of negatives, and left out the part about the process by which you gain sufficient trust from those who can set up moderated topics for you.

I see pros and cons. We'd like to trust you, or whomever, with tenantship over some piece of acreage on the eplaya to farm or sublet as you wish, but on what basis?

What if it were automatic? Every thread belonging to the original poster?

What would Will's Penis do?

Whatever positive arguments there might be for thread moderation ought to be put forward. That's what your proposal is. I could see users petitioning you to become part of your "Usergroup" or "Memberlist", if those features fit the bill. Nothing wrong with them putting in a little extra effort to contact you, and you answering all interested parties. Or what?

I'd have no time for it, personally, but I'd like to watch someone experiment with it.
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Postby precipitate » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:05 am

> What would Will's Penis do?

Who cares?
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Postby drowned_saved » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:08 am

>What would Will's Penis do?

go limp, i reckon.
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Re: Thread Ownership

Postby Don Muerto » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:15 am

Bob, here is the relevant post, the first.

Don Muerto wrote:...When you create a thread on the 3playa, you have the option of 'banning' contributions to it from particular posters. It strikes me as both a mechanism to prevent thread hijacking, and also a statement of the trust placed in thread creators on the 3playa.

Regardless of whether this mod exists, what do you think of the concept being applied to the eplaya?

On the plus side, I would love to create a thread that can't be sunk under a mountain of irrevelant ego-wanking such as current eplaya threads frequently are. I think it would actually enable discourse to return where it is absent today.

On the down-side, some of that ego-wanking involves lots of thread creation which has occasionally generated good discussion despite the inanity of the original post. Also, it could be used punitively at the sole-discretion of the thread creator, so a new conciousness of who created the thread would have to be in the mind of respondents before they post.

What do you peoples think of this? Does 'radical thread responsibility' jive more with the BM culture than 'ownership' of a discussion clash with it?


It's in broad strokes, but I think it both covers the positive and the concerns about what WillRodgersAsshat would do.

This is largely an intellectual interest for me, hence hoping to channel the discussion to the mod 'as is.'
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Postby Bob » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:00 am

precipitate wrote:> What would Will's Penis do?
Who cares?


Slowly I turned.

Step by step.

Inch by inch.

Try to use the Socratic method, and you end up face down in a punchbowl of hemlock tea.
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Plonk!

Postby DVD Burner » Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:54 am

I hope thread control comes online at the same time as the plonker.
In some ways I think it's more important than the plonker.
My reasons are entirely different from those posted in this thread.
I have though, posted my reasons months ago under another thread.(not going to rehash my reasons again.)
but once online along with the spellchecker/dictionary, eplaya will be a much happier place.

:wink:
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Postby Tancorix » Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:08 pm

Well, considering how long it's been since the first set of rules were supposed to be posted, you'll need a cane or a wheelchair when plonking is finally available.
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Postby DVD Burner » Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:23 pm

Tancorix wrote:Well, considering how long it's been since the first set of rules were supposed to be posted, you'll need a cane or a wheelchair when plonking is finally available.


Well I dont know. Yes the rules need to be in place and will be in place soon, that's a given.
It's taken this long for the board to pick up speed.
The point of a plonker and thread control has finally come to bat and is ironed out.

Seems to me the admins are going with the speed of the users and not ahead of them.

Everything should be just fine from here on out.
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Postby Badger » Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:55 pm

It's taken this long for the board to pick up speed.


Am I the only one who finds the irony delicious?

Picking up speed you note. More like picking up speed on a road that's been saturated with mortar fire by individuals trying to run the whole thing into a ditch becuase of their own infantile, myopic agenda(s).
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Postby DVD Burner » Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:14 pm

Badger wrote: More like picking up speed on a road that's been saturated with mortar fire by individuals trying to run the whole thing into a ditch becuase of their own infantile, myopic agenda(s).


This from someone that chops up individuals instead of opinions different from his own. (you really should get rid of that avatar....just a suggestion.)

Wait a minute...were you speaking of your agenda or were you assuming that I had one?

Didn't you say and think I wasn't smart enough or something like that ? Why do you torture yourself this way knowing you'll never win. :?

You must really enjoy attacking me. Does it get you off?
I can only imagine what your keyboard looks like from the great responses I send you.
Maybe I need to find a pain inflictor button for you. I enjoy inflicting pain every once in awhile.
:lol:
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Postby DVD Burner » Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:57 pm

So Badger,

are you ready to stop the mudslinging yet?

I can keep going if you like, and still stay within thread theme and post count.
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Postby Bob » Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:31 am

I wonder if the eplaya login "Boring Twitdrill" is taken.
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Postby DVD Burner » Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:26 am

Bob wrote:I wonder if the eplaya login "Boring Twitdrill" is taken.

<sigh> :?

Try it out.
If it fits wear it.
It should look great on you.

Now this is rather boring is'nt it? :roll:

(cant wait for these new mods.)
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