So what's the deal on this eplaya summit?

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So what's the deal on this eplaya summit?

Postby aforceforgood » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:12 pm

I haven't been able to find a peep about it using the search function. Which illustrates the point that we need less boxes in this place for stuff to be hidden in.

But aside from that- anyone have any info on how to make a reservation, or the conference call # and time/date? I'd like to participate by listening even if I weren't able to contribute.
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Re: So what's the deal on this eplaya summit?

Postby DE FACTO » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:26 pm

aforceforgood wrote:I haven't been able to find a peep about it using the search function. Which illustrates the point that we need less boxes in this place for stuff to be hidden in.

But aside from that- anyone have any info on how to make a reservation, or the conference call # and time/date? I'd like to participate by listening even if I weren't able to contribute.


The meeting was cancelled last week. and is supposed to be rescheduled for this week. send a message to the admin. they will let you know.


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Postby herself » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:32 pm

here are the details someone posted over on the altplaya,
don't know how wide a distribution is intended:

Since Technopatra will be out of town Thursday, I have decided to postpone the ePlaya Summit until the following Monday, October 21. Same time, same place. I have not heard back from very many people about whether they will be attending, so please RSVP for this meeting so I know how many people to expect. Thanks! Oh, keep in mind that you don't have to be able to come to the meeting at the office, we do have a conference phone that you can call into and participate remotely.
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Postby aforceforgood » Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:05 pm

Thanks guys, I did pm Technopatra and Spanky, haven't heard anything yet- they're probably busy with their weekend- which I better get moving on too! Yipes.
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Postby DE FACTO » Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:08 pm

aforceforgood wrote:Thanks guys, I did pm Technopatra and Spanky, haven't heard anything yet- they're probably busy with their weekend- which I better get moving on too! Yipes.


Just so you know I care about you.

I am not an admin here but I know what's involved. Sometimes it can be a bitch. and if your volunteering it can be wicked.

Just hang for a few. i'm sure they will get to you. I'm supprised they got to me.

shocked actually.
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Postby aforceforgood » Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:35 pm

DE FACTO wrote:Just so you know I care about you.

I am not an admin here but I know what's involved. Sometimes it can be a bitch. and if your volunteering it can be wicked.


Well thanks.

As for coding the website, yeah, I have some dim vague appreciation for what the coders must be going through- when I was much younger, I LOVED computers so much that I started learning how to program and just about instantly stopped I was so repulsed at the level of complexity required to get a computer to do the simplest of things. I found out all I wanted to do was to be able to hit a button and have it do it. So the coders definitely have my respect, even if I think they're a little nuts.

In other news, I've heard back from spanky, and he's asked that I post this info in this discussion, or any others there might be regarding the eplaya summit (which says a lot about the openness of the web team to the idea of those who aren't on the web team attending);

Spanky wrote:Actually, it's been rescheduled for Thursday. Where did you hear about it? I'd like to get everyone informed of the new date. If there's a thread about it, could you please update it with "ePlaya Summit, Thursday 6pm, BMHQ" and "email eplaya at burningman dot com for more information". Thanks!


Dunno whether Spanks tried to use the search function to find threads and wasn't able to or if he's just too busy to do that, but I have to admit I got a good laugh at the irony of an admin (if that's what he is) asking what's on his board... sorry spanks, it's meant with love.
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Postby Bob » Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:42 pm

I haven't been in the loop at all with any tech people or other involved with the eplaya, other than via on-board discussions.

While in a sense I wish I'd been more actively recruited for input and for testing anything new, the horse is already out of the barn. On-board discussions with more of the tech people taking part would be good as an ongoing thing.
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Postby DE FACTO » Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:45 pm

Bob wrote:I haven't been in the loop at all with any tech people or other involved with the eplaya, other than via on-board discussions.

While in a sense I wish I'd been more actively recruited for input and for testing anything new, the horse is already out of the barn. On-board discussions with more of the tech people taking part would be good as an ongoing thing.


Has anyone checked out the phpbb site or spanky's sloburn site.

Some neet stuff is on them.

That's how I found out about a lot of stuff here.
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Postby herself » Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:45 pm

> Dunno whether Spanks tried to use the search function to find threads and wasn't able to or if he's just too busy to do that, but I have to admit I got a good laugh at the irony of an admin (if that's what he is) asking what's on his board... sorry spanks, it's meant with love.

Bear in mind that I'm the one that posted the info about the meeting being on Monday, and that was from second-hand information, so Spanky's surprise may have been more about where you got incorrect info (if Monday was incorrect) than confusion about where the info was posted.
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Postby aforceforgood » Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:01 pm

herself wrote:Spanky's surprise may have been more about where you got incorrect info (if Monday was incorrect) than confusion about where the info was posted.


Actually, to be perfectly accurate he didn't even ask, he requested I pass the info on in whatever threads there might be, so I would go with the too busy hypothesis. I just saw the humor in there and wanted to share it.
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Postby III » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:15 am

> As for coding the website

there isn't any coding of the website. they can bartely manage to press the little admin buttons.

they can't event spend the time to figure out the skin templates - or figure out that there isn't any actual documentation for them anywhere, and require trial and erroring to get anything real done with them.

i'm sure they will apply patches. they may find the time to apply some pre-written mods, but i suspect most of the ones they need are in beta, and as likely to break things as fix them.

i really doubt that they've even opened one of the files to take a look at how the code was written.

if they had, they'd know that it's a miasmic mess of incomprehensibility, and would require a decent team of two or three people spending 15-20 hours a week to develop the proficiency to properly modify it.

that's just not going to happen.
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Hey Gang!

Postby spanky » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:27 am

Hey there!

Sorry to be such a latecomer on this thread! (everybody laughs now) Um, here's the deal with the ePlaya Summit:

First things first, we had to move the date 3 times (sorry) and it is now scheduled for THURSDAY 6PM! I will get all of the information about how to call in to the conference phone out to everybody who emails eplaya at burningman dot com.

The idea behind this is to establish a team of people who want to work out the kinks and policies of the new ePlaya system. As Engineering Team Lead, I am ultimately responsible for the technological side of the ePlaya, but I have a lot of things on my plate this year and managing the ePlaya is way too much work and really deserves a lot of focus and attention. This really needs to be done by a team of folks who have a serious interest in electronic communities and experience with Burning Man and the old E-Playa. So, the idea was the post out the community and get those who are interested to come together and build a team, outline the needs and goals, and make this the baddest-ass community site around.

My apologies for not posting this directly to the ePlaya, but it is typical "procedure" to email out to the technical announce list, as these people have filled out volunteer questionnaires and expressed interest in working on our technological projects. I'm happy to see the contents of my emails reposted here because it did garner more interest, but this [ePlaya] was not the intended delivery mechanism for the announcements. Burning Man typically uses its registered volunteer base to recruit for new projects. SO, sorry if the information contained in this thread was out of date or innaccurate and for my absence in the discussion.

One thing that has been commented on before in various threads is how the admins don't use the board, etc. I use and have used the boards before, but it is not my primary interest, which is why my participation in this realm is spotty. Right now, Technopatra and Emily Sparkle are reading and responding to posts in the Feedback sections and generally monitoring the boards and emails, but they will also need support. Sorry to not be as active as I'd like, but we also have a website to work on, an Extranet to maintain not to mention several hundred other day to day technology tasks! :) My actual job is to be sure the board is *running* properly, secure and up to date. I don't really work on the content end of any of the technology projects here. Regardless, this is why we're building the ePlaya Task Force which is the end goal of the upcoming ePlaya Summit.

Which, again, is Thursday October 23 at BMHQ. If you are interested in attending, either remotely or in person, you need to email eplaya at burningman dot com for information on how to get here, how to dial in, etc.

Take care and thanks for being so proactive!
~Spanky

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Postby DE FACTO » Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:41 am

See aforceforgood. I told ya.

I hope I see you then. it would be good to meet you.
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Postby aforceforgood » Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:53 am

And I wish I could be there in person- but since I suspect BMHQ is up in SF and I'm down here in helLA, it's unlikely, though I will be on the conference call, assuming I get the email...

Spanky, should I be concerned that I haven't gotten that yet? Or has it gone out yet?
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Postby spanky » Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:04 pm

TO: aforceforgood
I didn't get it out yesterday but it went out this morning. Sorry for the delay.

TO: III
Actually, I've been working with this system for some time now and YES we have opened the code, YES we have installed several mods which AREN'T in beta, and YES we haven't installed a few other mods because they are. YES we know there's no documentation for the skins, but there's also no documentation on how to build a giant city in the desert. Damn, dude, you come off so negative sometimes, but in our one-to-one interactions, you're much more positive. Sorry to hear you rippin' on the team. We'll still do our best for you, either way.

TO: DE FACTO
I don't have a sloburn site - must be a different Spanky!

TO: everyone who likes to complain about my personal involvement with the board and maybe this will help clarifiy what I actually DO here at Burning Man. I'm the Engineering Lead which makes me responsible for the technical engineering projects. I don't specifically manage this board, that's what Emily Sparkle and company does. I helped installed it, configure it, modify it, skin it and coordinate everyone to get these tasks done (cat herding) and now I'm helping build a team of much more active, interested, talented and motivated (and hopefully POSITIVE) people to keep it running smoothly, which I will then manage. We didn't have time to set this team up in advance with all of the things we had going on before I left for the playa...it was a busy time, as you might gather if you've ever seen what we do in the Black Rock.

[rant]To me it's a shame to come down to this office and be surrounded by super-motivated super-positive extra special fun people who will basically do whatever it takes to make this event happen (which is why I do it) and then to just be attacked for all of the effort we go through with little regard or appreciation for what we do here and how fucking hard it is to do and please everybody (which, BTW, is NOT our goal - our goal is to try to make things work in a affordable, scalable, manageable and community driven/supporting/building way that meets the needs of community). ANYHOW, I've already spent too much time on this post and I have to get back to work.[/rant]

#cat flames > /dev/null
#cd /pub
#more beer
~Spanky

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Postby michael » Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:06 pm

DE FACTO wrote:Has anyone checked out the phpbb site or spanky's sloburn site.

Some neet stuff is on them.

That's how I found out about a lot of stuff here.


Thank you for the praise about SLOburn. I have been working on that site for about a year. The purpose of the site is to unite and share information with other San Luis Obispo/ California Central Coast burners. I do use SLOburn for personal Burning Man galleries as well, but in the future I will use http://www.burncity.org for that purpose.

In time I would like to enable other local burners to have automated galleries. I am working on those damn computing skills. If I can tear myself away from building my house and posting on the eplaya, maybe I can spend some time creating a custom skin for the SLOburn message board.

Sorry about the spanky confusion. I got the name on the playa this year. When I went to the new eplaya my username MLK did not work. Since re-registering was in order I wanted to use the name spanky. Darn it, some guy high up in the Bm-tech had the name. I had to have something close to the name spanky and that is where spanky! came from.

To (the first) spanky:

I hope using the name spanky! is not a problem. I will try to figure a way to make my signature look different.
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Postby herself » Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:32 pm

Spanky,

As engineering lead, you are a full time paid employee, correct?

I know you may choose not to acknowledge my question But I believe that if you are an employee of the LLC, you should be held accountable for your work. At my job if I don't do my work, I am criticized, and not just by my boss.

Perhaps I'm wrong and you're not paid. I think it would be helpful if this were clarified. My assumption is that you, technopatra, and ra are all paid employees. I just think that should be noted.

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Postby Badger » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:07 pm

As engineering lead, you are a full time paid employee, correct?


If he is it'd probably be more reasonable to refer to him as paid employee (drop the full-time thing). Most of the folks I work with that get monies from BM are paid to do a job and complete defined tasks. All this assuming that Spanky! is who you think he is and that he's willing to answer what probably amounts to a personal question of sorts.
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Postby herself » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:14 pm

Badger, I know who spanky is, spoke w him at the Oakland crucible event last year, met him a couple years ago when I was a brief volunteer for the extranet team. In fact, in the tradition of the extranet, spanky himself gave me a tiara to wear for two weeks to acknowledge my enthusiasm and attitude. I turned the tiara in to the team two weeks later when I excused myself from the extranet because I felt nothing was getting done. Plus the meetings were very much "we're so cool, we all know who black flag is, WOW how can so many cool people be here together" ya know i'm not looking for validation of my coolness, and secret hand signals, which we also had, were not what I was looking for.

So yeah, I know who spanky is, though I was slightly confused by the other spanky! at first.

And I don't think asking whether he is a full time paid employee is an unfair or inappropriately personal question, why on earth would it be inappropriate to ask what his status w the org is? Being paid is a WHOLE lot different from being a volunteer, as I'm sure you yourself are aware, Badger.

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Postby Badger » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:25 pm

I hear ya kiddo. Loud and clear. And, I think you're right.

Just kinda reacted to a question (even though not directed at me) that haunts me enough by folks who ask similar stuff of yours truly. As of this year too many folks have asked me in often VERY public situations how much the org pays me to work during the year as a Ranger all the while never seeming to consider that they don't pay me and that I've never asked for nor would I ever accept money for a role that I've always performed as a volunteer. Even after such an explanation there's always the little tweek... "Badger, I know they pay you something."
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Postby spanky » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:26 pm

(This thread has gone WAY off topic at this point, so this is my last hurrah on the topic, unless people want to discuss the ePlaya Summit rather than ME ;) -- if you want to argue with me personally, send me email and we can take it up there, in person or on the phone)

Harriet/herself:

Yes, I am accountable for my work and do take responsibility for it, - as well as the criticism. I just prefer it delivered a bit more constructively. :) In fact, I very much enjoy criticism and debate when delivered with the intent of making improvements, but simply tearing into something based on speculation and appearance is abrasive and uncalled for. It's like any "-ism" in a way, if you assume something based on its appearance blended with your worldview and uniformed expectation, you are more than likely to be disappointed and frustrated with your own personal outcome of the situation. For instance, if based on my knowledge, upbringing and education, I say "white people can't dance" - I will be sorely mistaken and possibly act aggressively toward someone who dances well at a club out of defensiveness or just plain ignorance (dumb example, I know, but consider unprovoked gay-bashing as a parallel). Assumptions about our technical prowess, decision making process, and motivations have been made repeatedly without much care to looking into actual process, and I don't consider that criticism; it's some "ism" with no name...assumptionism? I don't know, like I said before, we'll just keep working on it :) We like Burning Man and keep trying, despite many odds, naysayers and monkeywrenches thrown at us, to make its many aspects continue on every year...even if it enables people to continue complaining about it year after year ;)

I *welcome* feedback, in fact we even (at user request) set up an entire forum where many folks have been active, and we have made several changes based on that feedback. I'm trying to establish this team to better serve you and address that criticism. We are constantly trying to make it better.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but to me it really doesn't matter either way whether I'm paid (full time, part time or contractor), it's about being in a position of accountability. Granted, I answer to the Tech Dep't Lead (Ra) and even moreso, the Director of Communications (Jackrabbit), but like the captain of a ship, I am ultimately responsible for the actions of my crew. There are many folks who are accountable and responsible who aren't paid, in fact being paid is sometimes a demotivating factor in that regard because striving for that position is no longer necessary. With that said, YES, I receive a form of compensation for my role within the Burning Man Project AND I am accountable and responsible for the role I fill.

Also, please keep in mind, I have been volunteering here for years, and still volunteer my time for the Café Build, Coffee Shop, Decor, Performance and Lighting Teams and any other projects that need assistance or are thrown my way by necessity, during the event, on playa. I also never ask for expense reimbursements (unless I'm "running" for something specific that's not for me). Basically I work my ass off here because I love it, and if I weren't being compensated, I would still be here, working just as hard. (I'll also give you the right of way in traffic, wave if you let me merge, and smile a lot and say "Hello" and "Thank you" people I encounter throughout the day.)

So, I guess I'm just inviting more criticsm and attacks by putting this out there...so be it. I just want to be clear from my standpoint and if someones's going to attack, they're spending their time and energy on something negative and unproductive, where they should be trying to make the world a better place.
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Postby herself » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:34 pm

Spanky, I really appreciate your thoughtful answer and am glad that you wrote back. I think what you say about "it doesn't matter whether I'm paid" rings true, and having met you, it shows in your actions, because you appear to me to be very, very dedicated, and I respect that. Thanks again for writing back.
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Postby III » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:45 pm

>YES we have opened the code

my bad.

all previous communications indicated that there was the possibility of doing so, but despite the opportunity for feedback in the feedback threads, there has been no indication of what's being done to address the same issues that come up over and over again.

i don't mean to be negative - i'm just basing my observations on what you (as a team) are willing to communicate to your user base.

and i'm glad to see you participating here. that's a good thing...
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Postby III » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:04 pm

after a couple minutes of thought, i think i need to offer a more serious apology. that original post was based in frustration, and very truely wasn't based on any actual knowledge on my part, but rather some rather finicky reading betwene the lines of a whole history of posts that led me to undoubtedly make some invalid assumptions.

it's just that after months of whole groups of people repeating the mantra of: "simpler navigation, content filters of some sort, and less visual cruft", the gang here is being presented with a faq and a proposed set of user guidelines, which makes it sound as if our comments fall on deaf ears. i realize that there is an element of "if you don't like it, do something to fix it" in this, and i'm on the wrong side of that. however, i am a part of the intended audience for this project, and i have a fair amount of at least semiprofessional experience with hci and data presentation. furthermore, my comments do not exist in a vaccumm, but correspond very closely with the other people here would like to preserve this forum as a place for intelligent discourse.

but, as you said, it's your project, and your responsibility. i wish you luck, and hope that what you envision will actually happen. but it'd be nice if, along the way, you let the people on this side of the project know how you plan on getting there...
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Postby DE FACTO » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:53 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
even though...........
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Postby michael » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:24 pm

herself wrote:Spanky,

As engineering lead, you are a full time paid employee, correct?

I know you may choose not to acknowledge my question But I believe that if you are an employee of the LLC, you should be held accountable for your work. At my job if I don't do my work, I am criticized, and not just by my boss.

Perhaps I'm wrong and you're not paid. I think it would be helpful if this were clarified. My assumption is that you, technopatra, and ra are all paid employees. I just think that should be noted.

harriet


A general statement with the above quote in mind:

Asking someone if they get paid for their work seems like setting a stage for treating them like your damn servant and they should do their job. I know that may not be the intention, that sort of questioning is subconsciously rooted in our culture as hostile.

It is similar to saying, “you get paid… do your job.” So asking someone if they get paid indirectly implies that they are not adequately performing. Therefore such a statement is hostile. Without knowing his or her official job description just adds to it.

This is just what I think anyway.
-Michael
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Postby DE FACTO » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:13 pm

Asking someone if they get paid for their work seems like setting a stage for treating them like your damn servant and they should do their job. I know that may not be the intention, that sort of questioning is subconsciously rooted in our culture as hostile.





Well ....see. as my previously <PLONKED> posts stated:

I am not an admin here but I know what's involved. Sometimes it can be a bitch. and if your volunteering it can be wicked.

Just hang for a few. i'm sure they will get to you.


But hey that was <plonked>. that's right I forgot. and I also posted:

Has anyone checked out the phpbb site or spanky's sloburn site.

Some neet stuff is on them.

That's how I found out about a lot of stuff here.


That was helpful information. not negative input against the admins or PHPBBS.
But hey that's right. That was <plonked> too.


and when Spanky did get back to aforceforgood (who was more patient and less nasty than....well who cares.) I posted :

See aforceforgood. I told ya.


Yes I'm in favor of Plonking because it makes reading for me much more entertaining.

Some very wise people will miss my stupid <plonked> postings. I can very much hang with that.

case in point:


after a couple minutes of thought, i think i need to offer a more serious apology. that original post was based in frustration, and very truely wasn't based on any actual knowledge on my part, but rather some rather finicky reading betwene the lines of a whole history of posts that led me to undoubtedly make some invalid assumptions.


All done within this single thread.

Remember it's all about love
even though...........
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Postby michael » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:41 pm

DE FACTO wrote:<PLONKED> ...

That was helpful information. not negative...


Take a look at the top of page 2 in this thread.

You are right... it is all about love
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Postby DE FACTO » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:49 pm

Oh yeah dood your in there.

If they want to be old farts then so be it. I'm into having tons of fun.

I hate chess because I win too often. not every time but, enough to make sore loosers mad.

for me it's like a game of pool. it's just a game of fun. that's all. go out and have a couple of drinks and have a blast.

:lol:
even though...........
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Postby michael » Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:55 pm

DE FACTO wrote:Oh yeah dood your in there.

If they want to be old farts then so be it. I'm into having tons of fun.

I hate chess because I win too often. not every time but, enough to make sore loosers mad.

for me it's like a game of pool. it's just a game of fun. that's all. go out and have a couple of drinks and have a blast.

:lol:


What are you talking about? I am really confused now.
-Michael
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