New car fees and more great ideas

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New car fees and more great ideas

Postby mickle » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:22 pm

Well, this new car access fee is great, it will reduce cars and raise about $1.4 million extra for BM to do who knows what with.

I'd like to suggest a few more fees:

There are just too many art cars on the playa and it is dangerous to get around. Let's have a $100/artcar DMV registration fee to cut down on this problem.

The lines at toilets are too long and too many people are using them too often, and the crews can't keep up with cleaning them out. Let's sell toilet tokens in advance for $1 each entry. You will need to guess how many times you need to use the toilet 6 months ahead of time and purchase them with your ticket. This could easily raise about $700,000 or so more for BM.

Noise pollution: Too much amplified music ruins the experience for everyone. I propose a soundsystem fee of $1/watt of amplified sound. $2/watt if it is pre-recorded music. $3/watt for DJs. Fees are doubled if the soundsystem is on an artcar as the pollution is even worse.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Eric » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:56 pm

So you obviously didn't bother to read the part of the blog where it mentions that the state is charging BMorg more to repair damage to the road, seeing our week in the desert is the only heavy use it gets since the mine shuttered, and it gets A LOT of use for the month around Burning Man. Ever think that the vehicle fees might just go towards that, and that by limiting vehicles coming to the playa it helps ensure long-term security for the event?

Besides, you don't have to pay it if you don't want. You just won't be able to drive in by yourself.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby kiss-o-matic » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:21 am

If it cuts down the entrance and exodus lines I'd pay a lot more. It was bad this past year, and other than getting people to car pool (and I agree the only way to do it is a hurdle) is to expand the road... and we know that's not going to happen.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby mickle » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:49 am

No, I couldn't find anything on the blog saying the state is charging BM for road repairs. That sounds ridiculous if it is true. Burners buy tons of gasoline, (among other things) in Nevada and I'm sure some of the tax collected pays for road repairs.

Maybe they could use some of that money to pave Jungo Road, then there would be another way out.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby mickle » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:17 am

If you try to say this years theme quickly... "caravansary"... it comes out sounding like "car and vans fee".

Is this a coincidence?
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:03 am

mickle wrote:If you try to say this years theme quickly... "caravansary"... it comes out sounding like "car and vans fee".

Is this a coincidence?


BRILLIANT!

I think this is going to be shamelessly stolen int he name of propaganda.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:08 am

I'm going to have to agree with the sentiment that this is another dumb idea brought to us by same the dumb idea department responsible for the lottery and everybody get in the exodus line right now theres a huge shit storm coming!

Every single vehicle en route to and from Burning Man buys gas and thus pays road taxes. Maintain the damn roads with that? After a few years it would add up to enough to widen the damn thing.

1.7 million dollars if an awful lot of money, is that all going to the county for road maintenance? Or is this a backhanded way for the Borg to raise the capital to pay off the law enforcement as well? I will probably keep wondering since the Borg has never been very good at the transparency game...

Next year we should have to reserve real estate when we buy our tickets! We would have to know in January how much we'll need and the Borg could charge us a dollar per sq. foot. Reduce space taken up and make more money!! Money!
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby CapSmashy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:24 am

I see some of you have no idea what it costs to maintain/repair 80 + miles of road.

Especially if they are having to rebuild portions of it because of heavy loads chewing up the road base under the asphalt.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby DrYes » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:36 am

kiss-o-matic wrote:If it cuts down the entrance and exodus lines I'd pay a lot more. It was bad this past year,


Only if you choose to arrive and leave when everybody else does!
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:28 am

To understand the roads in NV you must know: The roads are only built for one year service.. They are layed out with a grader over raw desert.. Then some black top thrown on.. Just not built for many burners.. The roads are under constant repair..
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby ACfromSAC » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:41 am

I paid $35 to park at a 49ers game for 5 hours last month. $40 to park at Burning Man for a week and HOPEFULLY reduce the time I spend in line to and from the event sounds like money well spent to me.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby tamarakay » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:52 am

Whatever the reasons and even if you agree with BMorg, you gotta admit the op is hilarious.

How about a feather fee? 100 bucks and you can wear all the feathers you want. This will of course offset the cost of cleaning up after you.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby ACfromSAC » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:55 am

tamarakay wrote:Whatever the reasons and even if you agree with BMorg, you gotta admit the op is hilarious.

How about a feather fee? 100 bucks and you can wear all the feathers you want. This will of course offset the cost of cleaning up after you.


I could DEFINITELY get behind a feather fee. Last year my moop bag was packed full of them! ...and yes, OP is a visionary in the world of future fees :D
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Lonesomebri » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:00 am

How about a fee for Yellow-save-this-space-for people-coming-on-Thursday-plastic ribbon? I would support that fee 100%.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby unjonharley » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:09 am

So? If I am one of the unlucky one that can not buy a car pass..

I'm disabled enough that I can not tent, walk around and need a van to transport a mobility scooter, chair and so on..

Well I guess it's just hard luck on me/fuck you stay home and watch the able bodys play.. ...
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:12 am

CapSmashy wrote:I see some of you have no idea what it costs to maintain/repair 80 + miles of road.

Especially if they are having to rebuild portions of it because of heavy loads chewing up the road base under the asphalt.


Been using the same road for years now.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby ACfromSAC » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:18 am

Lonesomebri wrote:How about a fee for Yellow-save-this-space-for people-coming-on-Thursday-plastic ribbon? I would support that fee 100%.


THIS!
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:46 pm

What surprises me most about the vehicle pass is that it didn't come sooner. Anyone who's been to the event before can tell you that there isn't enough road for the traffic on it. It also doesn't surprise me that after the state of Nevada had to repair that road several times after washouts in early summer, they'd come knocking on Burning Man's door to help cover road repair costs.

If the vehicle pass thing only reduces the number of vehicles by 1000, that's 1000 less cars in line at the gate and during exodus (btw, 1000 cars per hour is the max we're allowed to let on the highway during exodus pulses). There are around 1000 registered camps and several thousand more unregistered camps - if camps could only reduce the number of vehicles they bring by one, that a massive win.

But if we're gonna talk finding other silly fees to leverage, how about the whiny post fee? That one alone might almost pay off the city's bar tab... :mrgreen:
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby tamarakay » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:49 pm

A "that is the one millionth time that question has been asked fee"
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Bounce530 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:31 pm

What about the increased traffic due to people getting to the gate without a pass that will turn around drive back to who-knows-where to obtain a pass and then roll back to the event.
I really have no idea what I'm talking about though, never worked gate, so I don't know how many people are really turned around for whatever reason, but I do know always on the ride in there are several loaded vehicles hauling ass back towards Empire/Reno. I've imagined that they were people who got to gate and were turned around for some reason. I'd guess that if there are not any passes available at the gate, there are going to be quite a few more people driving as fast as they can in the other direction.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:14 pm

trilobyte wrote:What surprises me most about the vehicle pass is that it didn't come sooner. Anyone who's been to the event before can tell you that there isn't enough road for the traffic on it. It also doesn't surprise me that after the state of Nevada had to repair that road several times after washouts in early summer, they'd come knocking on Burning Man's door to help cover road repair costs.


How are washouts our fault?
The limited vehicle pass plan will force more heavy truck use. That will fuck up the road more. Brilliant.

This plan is indefensible, it doesn't hold water under any reasonable scrutiny. It's pure and utter bullshit.

Reminds me of a situation we had in Seattle. The downtown ferry terminal needed repair and they imposed an arbitrary 60,000 pound weight limit. We were hauling granite on 4 axle trucks pulling 4 axle trailers, totaling 105,000 pounds. They wouldn't let us on. So instead, we would bring two 4 axle trucks, each weighing exactly 60,000 pounds. Now they were happy, although we now weighed 120,000 pounds in the same space on the same number of axles.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Elorrum » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:46 pm

This 40 dollars isn't going to incentivize me to do shit. I own a small car. Putting another person in the car isn't just a person, it's everything that person needs as well. Burning man isn't going to encourage me to buy a new big car and start running a ride share. If I got a ride with someone else, it isn't just me and a tent and 10 gallons of water hopping into their car.

I see it as a straight up fee to settle a civil suit conflict without raising ticket prices. The ceiling of how expensive it can get before people stop going is coming into sight for me.

I thought the peeing on the playa, and 16 mph in town tickets, were paying for some of the upkeep.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby FIGJAM » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:00 pm

Didn't I read somewhere that we add about $35,000,000 to the local economy every year?

Is the local sales tax 10%?

Don't taxes pay for infrastructure? :?
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:54 am

The Nevada (NV) state sales tax rate is currently 6.85%. Depending on local municipalities, the total tax rate can be as high as 8.1%.

I guess that the days of not taxing because they get so much revenue from gambling are gone...
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:51 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Didn't I read somewhere that we add about $35,000,000 to the local economy every year?

Is the local sales tax 10%?

Don't taxes pay for infrastructure? :?



Add on the NV state fuel taxes as well.

Captain Goddammit wrote:The limited vehicle pass plan will force more heavy truck use. That will fuck up the road more. Brilliant.

This plan is indefensible, it doesn't hold water under any reasonable scrutiny. It's pure and utter bullshit.



The plan is bullshit. And what kind of participants are we if we don't raise a stink about bullshit when no one else can smell it?

Sure, its all easily dismissed as whining and bitching and moaning.. Some people have their heads so far up Larry's ass they'd defend his own shit as they swallowed it. You know what they say about The Lord of Black Rock...

And some people don't fucking care what kind of dumb ideas they come up with next.

I'm somewhere in the middle of caring and not. It is bullshit, but compared to some of the other failures of the Dumb Idea Dept. it's fairly minor. If idiots hoard all the passes and don't bother reselling them in August and thousands of ticket holders, camp leaders and artists can't get their hands on a VP I'm sure the Borg will release more to avoid a riot. The scarcity isn't the real issue for me, I'm confident I'll get to throw my party. For me the issue is stupid ideas being implemented when their (a) not thought through or (b) implemented under false pretenses. This bullshit stinks both ways.

trilobyte wrote:If the vehicle pass thing only reduces the number of vehicles by 1000, that's 1000 less cars in line at the gate and during exodus (btw, 1000 cars per hour is the max we're allowed to let on the highway during exodus pulses). There are around 1000 registered camps and several thousand more unregistered camps - if camps could only reduce the number of vehicles they bring by one, that a massive win.

But if we're gonna talk finding other silly fees to leverage, how about the whiny post fee? That one alone might almost pay off the city's bar tab... :mrgreen:


One thousand less vehicles is one thousand less trying to leave though exodus on Monday. Out of what? 20,000? Now we have 19,000. Genius. Pure fucking genius. Exodus is sure to be breeze! With the prospect of a 7 hour wait instead of 8 what could malcontents like me have to complain about.

People like to defend the organizers as infallible, but the dumbasses in charge are just that. Dumbasses, like me and you and every dumbass on this board. They make mistakes, just like I do, but their stupid mistakes impact tens of thousands of people and they deserve to be called out. Even if its by a few malcontents on a stupid web forum.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby FossaFerox » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:24 pm

If the passes have ANY impact at all it will be well worth the money. Some of you bitching and moaning seem to be ignoring a few big reasons why fewer cars in the city is a good idea.

The main reasons is traffic. Even small changes in the number of vehicles can have a MASSIVE impact on the flow rate of traffic. As density increases driver behavior changes, you start seeing "shock waves", merging becomes dramatically slower, etc. This causes exponentially compounding delays with several hard "tipping points." If they cut down on the number of vehicles by even 5% we can expect to see EXTREMELY noticeable changes to traffic on entry and ESPECIALLY on exodus.

Beyond that, I'm really hoping there will be fewer/smaller fucking parking lots this year. I'm not talking about RV "trailer parks" or about small groups of vehicles tightly clustered behind shade structures. I'm talking about space that was roped off before the gates opened, left empty, and dedicated EXCLUSIVELY to housing a theme camp's members' many, many vehicles.

This is a picture of my camp from last year. The intersection is 8:30 (Running like a \) and B (running like a /).

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That grey EMT structure with the heart on it was our camp. Aside from the top of the box truck poking over the top of the shade structure those are not our vehicles. A plot measuring about 100'x100' was roped off on the FUCKING corner and one just like it was roped off on the other side with the space behind us along all three plots also being primarily parking. These spaces were used to park cars no one touched between entry/exodus. At the end of the week there were two RVs in the lot behind us which I guess were overflow for the rest of the camp, or the people in them just didn't want to be near the other campers in their theme camp. Whatever the case, the space was still 99% parking lot.

So yeah, they can take that $1,400,000 and burn it with the man for all I care. I don't give a shit where the money goes.; if the issuing of passes drops the number of vehicles in the city at all I'm happy.

Hell, my camp had 13 people in it. We did not take 13 vehicles. We did not even take half that many. We took four. This was accomplished by renting a single 20' box truck (about 1.4 SUVs worth of footprint space in our camp plan). This allowed us to use our other vehicles to fit people instead of gear. In fact, we could have easily fit 16 people in our 4 vehicles without having even felt cramped. While I recognize that not everyone has the luxury of travelling with friends, I find it hard to believe that the number of vehicles we saw was born strictly of necessity and not of extremely lazy convenience.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:32 pm

"Burning Since 2013"? Apparently you weren't around when there WERE fewer cars coming in and out, yet there was still a huge traffic jam.
A tiny reduction in the number of cars won't do jack shit. Do you think entry/exodus traffic jams are new this year?!

If there are going to be enough passes printed to accommodate MORE cars than we had last year, how do you figure the number of cars will be reduced? Your camp fits into a box truck… well, mine doesn't. A box truck won't even pull my trailer.

You don't like where your neighbors parked their cars, so you want to just get rid of everyone's cars…
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby FossaFerox » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:46 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:"Burning Since 2013"? Apparently you weren't around when there WERE fewer cars coming in and out, yet there was still a huge traffic jam.
A tiny reduction in the number of cars won't do jack shit. Do you think entry/exodus traffic jams are new this year?!

If there are going to be enough passes printed to accommodate MORE cars than we had last year, how do you figure the number of cars will be reduced? Your camp fits into a box truck… well, mine doesn't. A box truck won't even pull my trailer.

You don't like where your neighbors parked their cars, so you want to just get rid of everyone's cars…


I'm not asking them to ban or "get rid" of anything, I'm asking them to incentivize the community to bring fewer cars to the burn. I don't think vehicle passes are going to sell out. I don't think you or anyone else will be unable to come or will have to sacrifice anything beyond a mere $40. However, I think people are going to plan ahead with their camp-mates and plan better than they did the year that I went. Having 50,000 square feet of prime real estate taken up by parking for 60-100 barely full sedans was fucking silly. The exodus was fucking agony. Both problems would have been less of an issue if people had additional INCENTIVE to take fewer vehicles.

And yes, I'm 100% sure that traffic has been awful plenty of other years including years with much less vehicle traffic. The thing is, the org and the entry/exodus teams are forced to play a reactive game. They're chasing the problem. Just because they haven't caught it doesn't mean they should stop running.
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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:09 pm

No matter how much you plan, things can suddenly change.

I know many people who PLAN to come in on Sunday or Monday And some last minute thing comes up, so they show up later in the week.

Guess what, they wind up driving in alone cause shit happens.

Some of these are major players in camp amenities.

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Re: New car fees and more great ideas

Postby Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:18 pm

Yes, what FIGJAM said.
There's already tons of incentive to not bring unneeded vehicles. Cost is the main one… then there's the corrosive playa dust that messes cars up.
What this is, is incentive to go to Hawaii instead of Burning Man! We've even got a timeshare thingie there already. Fuck it.
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