Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby pink » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:28 pm

Cap'n, you'll know at the time you get to the point in the queue to buy your tickets whether there are any vehicle passes left or not. If there aren't any, then you can make a decision whether to buy said tickets or not. So I don't see how you could get stuck with $800 of tickets and no vehicle pass unless you should then choose to buy the tix without a vp. At which point it is your choice. I don't think it will come to that though, since unless people didn't learn from 2012 and hoard the damn things.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Canoe » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:49 pm

BigInSeattle wrote:
unjonharley wrote:
BigInSeattle wrote:New guy here... I hear a lot of talk about entrance and exodus waits. I hear a lot of people complaining about how long it takes but what is it? An hour? All day? If I show up on opening day what can I expect?

Any where from 0 to 8 hours in and out.. I don't think any one can give a time.. At time the lane will back up to 11 miles plus.. There is only one lane in and out Don't let this scare you off.. Everybody gets in and out..
That won't scare me off. I'll be there unless life gets in the way.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby aserendipity » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:54 pm

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:50 pm

@dj_john69 - hilarious... though it's probably worth pointing out that there are people who blame a lot of those big name sound system camps with talent bookers who aren't even a part of the camp :wink: You've been going to this thing long enough to know that the bottleneck has been road capacity. After a few years of struggling, eventually all the parties agreed to go down the road of pulsing traffic. That's worked out for the last few years, and it looks like the next step is for Burning Man to actually get its arms around the number of vehicles coming to the event (something it has not previously been able to do). You're also familiar enough with the festival circuit to know that at venues with limited road or parking capacity, vehicle passes have been standard for years.

@ranger magnum - of course I read things before I reply to them. I only used the big boy reference because in your earlier post you used it while basically throwing a tantrum. I don't think there's a question about whether anyone is happy about having another fee or another thing. I think it's an issue of adapting to change. Looking at the blog post and the greater traffic issue, if Burning Man starting up a vehicle pass thing (like a lot of other festivals do) helps camps reduce their vehicle count only by one, that could be huge.

@Tiahaar - yep, I see it the same way, though it'd be a $23.50 a ticket increase for those buying 2.

@FIGJAM - I think there are a couple reasons behind it. Road repair is one, but traffic is another. Burning Man has to get its arms around the number of vehicles coming to the event. When I read the environmental assessment report from a couple years ago, it seemed pretty clear that the number of vehicles and the potential impact of that was already something that everyone was interested in, but there was nothing in place to either track or predict it.

@VultureChow - I think a higher vehicle pass price (with corresponding ticket price reduction) would have been a great way to go too, but I imagine the freakout would have been much, much bigger. People fear change, even when the numbers look good.

@BigInSeattle - hello and welcome to the site! It really does vary by day and time of day, and a zillion other factors. During peak periods you could expect to wait 6-8 hours or even more if there are weather issues (if it's raining, or if there's a significant dust storm going on, they close the playa roads).

@ckluehtnus - there is no dumping your car at the gates/on the road and walking in. Most likely abandoned vehicles would be towed at considerable expense.

@unjonharley - the Share Resources board is where people can post their rideshares on ePlaya, and it's open for business. The main site's rideshare board opens up later in either the spring or early summer. I'll make a note to check and see if there are plans to open that up earlier than usual.

@Ulisse - you'd be wise to take that census data with a big grain of salt. It's a tiny sampling, and falls pretty short of representing am accurate cross-section. As for what the money's used for, I don't think it's specified anywhere that it's only to be used for roads, or that only a certain percentage of it is. For all we know, they're changing the way certain accounting and allocations are done. There are already fairly significant costs to the event for vehicle-related expenditures like dust-abatement, traffic control, orange cones and so on. As costs for putting on the event continue to grow, that's not really that unreasonable a thing. I'm curious to see how it works out, hopefully when the afterburn report for this year's event comes out it'll contain more info.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Elliot » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:09 pm

trilobyte wrote:...
@ckluehtnus - there is no dumping your car at the gates/on the road and walking in. Most likely abandoned vehicles would be towed at considerable expense.
...

I dare say there is no "most likely" about it. The car would be on its way to some tow-in yard in Reno before the owner got his tent set up. It simply needs to be that way. :D
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:24 pm

I wonder if I'm halfway just trying to talk myself into going to Hawaii instead anyway.
I'm planning on BRC but if I don't "win" a chance to buy tickets and a pass on Grab Day, there's zero chance I'll be willing to buy tickets without a guarantee I can even get in to use them (WTF, that would be stupid!) and I don't think I'll be the least bit upset over it. My alternate plan requires about 20 minutes of packing, if that, and will probably cost less. And it's a hell of a lot easier in every way!

And then there's Speed Week at Bonneville... I can even drive the Land Yacht around there. it's a lot further but I don't have to buy $800 tickets.

Burning Man just keeps making itself more of a pain in the ass.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Eric » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:27 pm

Swami el Salami ben Elliot


Teacher of Religion, the Sausage, son of Elliot?

Oh, the places I could go with that...
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby FIGJAM » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:28 pm

But Captain, we need you to help fill up the end of the block! :lol:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:39 pm

Yeah I know....

Also for the record, Bbadger: you're still one of my favorite, most entertaining eplayans even though we have opposite opinions about these goddamm passes.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:57 pm

So, I won't be there. But let's be really clear, I can't carry a passenger. Well, if someone's carrying my gear, maybe. But not another person and gear just like that.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby ygmir » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:37 pm

Eric wrote:
Swami el Salami ben Elliot


Teacher of Religion, the Sausage, son of Elliot?

Oh, the places I could go with that...


oh, I imagine you could say, with minor character alterations : "oh, the places I've been with that"......
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Elliot » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:37 pm

Eric wrote:
Swami el Salami ben Elliot


Teacher of Religion, the Sausage, son of Elliot?

Oh, the places I could go with that...


WARNING: Thread drift!

Thanks for the language lesson. Obviously, "swami" and "ben" means something, but I didn't care. It was just for the music of it. As for my new nickname "the sausage", no comment.

When I was a kid in Norway, there was a cartoon character called Ben Reddik Fy Fasan -- an unkind caricature of an Arab. "Reddik" means "radish", the root vegetable. "Fy" is the word you may recognize as "fie" in English -- a parent might say "fy!" to a child who dragged mud into the house. And "fasan" is a euphemism for "faen", which means "damn", and is a variation of "Fanden", which means The Devil.

So that cartoon Arab was named Son Of Radish The Devil -- Sonofabitch Goddamn. Today I imagine the cartoonist would have been thrown in jail. I simply played with that concept of poetry.

Thread drift over. Methinks this was not the best thread for it, but he chose it. :?

Oh... I just bought a copy of The Travels Of Marco Polo. So much to learn. :D
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby ygmir » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:46 pm

Elliot wrote:
Eric wrote:
Swami el Salami ben Elliot


Teacher of Religion, the Sausage, son of Elliot?

Oh, the places I could go with that...


WARNING: Thread drift!

Thanks for the language lesson. Obviously, "swami" and "ben" means something, but I didn't care. It was just for the music of it. As for my new nickname "the sausage", no comment.
snipped**


just don't let them add "Vienna" to your new nickname, Elliot!!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:55 pm

Things will either come together for you or they won't, Captain. As someone who's planning to be in the desert, I selfishly hope you'll be there too. But if it turns out that this year some other adventure makes better sense for you, then I don't blame you one bit for doing that (and you know what'll make you happy better than any of us fuckos).
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Eric » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:14 am

Elliot wrote:Thanks for the language lesson. Obviously, "swami" and "ben" means something, but I didn't care.


A swami (Hindi) is a religious teacher, and "ben" (Hebrew) and "'ibn" (Arabic) both mean "son of", and are used for line of descent - in Arabic in can also be used to mean "of the house of", as in 'ibn Saud: "of the House of Saud". Yea, linguistic thread drift.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Elliot » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:15 am

.
I have no doubt the Master Of The Land Yacht is just blowing off a little steam. :D
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Elliot » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:22 am

.
(more of the thread drift.) Yeah, much fun stuff to learn. I grew up with Leif Eirikson -- Leif, son of Eirik.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby aserendipity » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:30 am

In truth those who get churlish about this new bend in the road

whatever
you and I know the regret forms later
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:34 am

Yeah maybe I'm starting to regret what BM has cost me.
Last year was 4 or 5 grand... the last time before, 2008 was over $5k.
I never intend to dump that much and I can't afford to drop that much like it was nothing but I get halfway in, too far to drop what's in it already, then more stuff adds on.
Last year the Yacht rebuild was supposed to be a clean up and maybe new lights, but it was in far worse shape mechanically than I thought. Now the thought of buying tickets and provably spending way too much money on god knows what and potentially not even getting in over a $40 pass is stressing me out. I already worry way more than anyone knows about making it over all those mountains in my 25 year old GMC lugging over 20,000 pounds of crap.

Hawaii would be awesome. And EASY!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby BBadger » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:37 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Well Bbadger I'm a crane truck operator, it's my job to know this stuff...
Axles on trucks are allowed 20,000 pounds not 18,000. RVs do not max at 26,000.
The big ones are routinely over 30,000 and RVs are exempted from all CDL license requirements. School busses usually have GVWRs of around 30,000 and BRC is full of them.
That's why people go to the trouble of getting their school busses retitled as RVs.


The 18,000lbs is the AASHO standard axle load -- the "unit axle load" used for heavy truck loads (i.e. loads that matter on roads). That 20,000lbs is just an allowed figure, and if relevant, actually raises the "who cares?" threshold. Regardless, nothing above even addresses the claim that this increased weight even matters for passenger vehicle loads.

My one-ton pickup and trailer weighed 4050 on the front axle, 7800 on the rear, and 9500 on the two-axle trailer. I don't guess, I check this stuff on a scale. The people traveling with me had similar weights. We could get one truck, but it would indeed be a semi truck.


Um, great. All this does is reaffirm what I've already stated: these added loads mean jack shit. You could double the above loads and it still wouldn't even register as far as per-axle road weight. These passenger vehicles just aren't factoring into these road damage fees designed around heavy vehicle traffic.

Dropping the ticket price and increasing the vehicle fee does penalize those who are bringing more stuff. I know a whole lot of people who are "on their own" for the BM trip.


No, it just means that camps -- you know, the communities that most people belong to -- will have to allocate some collective funds to help pay for the dude who happens to own the large truck that can haul more shit in, kind of like how people do with gas.

In fact, we should expect that the dude-who-brings-in-more-stuff will be the guy who receives special treatment (i.e. the vehicle passes) by the remainder of the camp who rely on his special services. If you're bringing in the awesome yacht that everyone wants to ride around on, expect someone in your camp to allocate tickets for you. The guy arriving alone in his Civic with just his own camping gear? Not so much, well unless he brought all the hookers (inflatable?) and blow.

And for all those on-their-own people who need their 1-pass-per-vehicle? Oh well. That's the point of this scheme. Force the issue on the lone-travelers and last-minute-didn't-have-a-plan people. Some will still make it, but now it's forcing more people to think twice and organize with others for at least their transportation needs. I consider this a good thing.

But all I mean about the passes and money is they are being collected on bullshit premises and I don't like having to pay $800 for tickets and have to risk them being worthless if I can't nab a car pass.
I don't mind the $40. I mind the potentially wasted $800.


Only the probability that people won't receive a pass is the only issue. It's not yet determined whether this is going to be an issue. Given that the 35,000 passes more than compensate for the average 1.9 occupants for vehicles, I'm not even worried that there won't be enough passes if BMOrg provides a decent redistribution method. With all the concern in the past about cost differences between different ticket tiers, many people will be eager to recoup their $40 if they can.

The only person who has debunked anything I've said is Eric.


Substantial portions are debunked, and the remainder are indeterminate or by design:

  • Bad idea because of added road wear = not an issue.
  • Penalizes people bringing in more shit = camps will compensate, and provide for their critical camp transport members like they already do with gas, trailers, etc.
  • Not enough passes or space = consolidate. On average there are enough passes, 65k/35k < 1.9 ratio of occupants/vehicle; the enforced ratio is to try and shift the outliers (single-vehicle/single-occupant) towards the average.
  • Bullshit premises = partially agree, because penalizing for actual road damage would encourage more vehicles on the road as people shift to smaller, lighter vehicles. That would specifically penalize the people who bring more cool stuff in fewer, (much) larger loads -- and RV folk. This scheme is different though, and is used as a way to reduce overall traffic -- the event-centric concern. Lemons to lemonade.

And the effect on people traveling alone? By design.

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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Patsh » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:58 am

Not all cars with one occupant are non-planners. My little car, with only me in it, also has gear, food and water for three for the week. The other two will be on the Burner Express. (They'll be flying to Reno, and I'll be driving from central AZ.) I keep their big bins in AZ 'til we need them for that one week a year.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby The_Sheik » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:46 am

So, based on the vehicle pass info that has been posted, and doing a little number crunching, I see a potential for failure in vehicle pass sales:

If everybody buying tickets also purchases the maximum number of vehicle passes permitted, I come up with this:

Pre sales: 3000 tickets with a maximum of four passes=12,000 passes
Directed group sales: 15000 with a maximum of two passes=30,000 passes.
Total passes that might be sold: 42,000

So based on my calculations, and the belief that there may be an active scalping/gifting market for vehicle passes, so folks will be inclined to buy as many as they can, most of the vehicle passes will be consumed during pre-sale and directed group sales with few or no passes being available during general ticket sales.

EDIT: I'm sorry, my math is off a bit, but even with Figjam's calcs, if 18000 passes are snapped up during pre-sale and DG sales that still leaves only 17,000 passes for potential sales of up to 43,000 tickets (4000 LIT, 38,000 individual sales, 1000 OMG)
Last edited by The_Sheik on Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:00 am

Pre sales: 3000 tickets with a maximum of four passes=3,000 passes
Directed group sales: 15000 with a maximum of two passes=15,000 passes.
Total passes that might be sold: 18,000

It's 1 pass per ticket purchased! 8)
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Patsh » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:52 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Pre sales: 3000 tickets with a maximum of four passes=3,000 passes
Directed group sales: 15000 with a maximum of two passes=15,000 passes.
Total passes that might be sold: 18,000

It's 1 pass per ticket purchased! 8)


with some left over from people like me, getting one pass, covering four tickets. (the fourth, not mentioned in my last post above, will be traveling with another friend, her ticket and vehicle pass.)
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Eric » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:10 pm

TexasRick wrote:So, based on the vehicle pass info that has been posted, and doing a little number crunching, I see a potential for failure in vehicle pass sales:


Again, let me repeat ad infinitum from the FAQ in the Burner Blog:
Burner Blog wrote:Q. Who has to purchase a Vehicle Pass?
A. All vehicles coming into the event must have a Vehicle Pass. They can be purchased online when you buy your tickets. There will be an initial allotment made for 35,000 Vehicle Passes.


I'm not sure why that part is so hard for people to understand. The Org actually looks like they have planned ahead (for once) in case the passes sell too fast & it doesn't look like there will be enough. Anyone who thinks they should buy extra in the hopes of making a profit will be screwed (and it's one per ticket, so they would have to buy extra tickets as well).

:roll:
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby lucky420 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:12 pm

Eric,

I have some sharp implements you can have if you're ready to poke your eyes out now...
Oh my god, it's HUGE!
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:14 pm

He's a mod. He's not permitted to poke his eyes out.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby TT120 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:23 pm

Well, if there are any VP's left when the main sale starts, I will get one. I took the day off work and will be sitting in front of my computer exactly at noon. Ain't gonna slip this one by me.......
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby illy dilly » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:02 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Pre sales: 3000 tickets with a maximum of four passes=3,000 passes
Directed group sales: 15000 with a maximum of two passes=15,000 passes.
Total passes that might be sold: 18,000

It's 1 pass per ticket purchased! 8)

Has the BMorg yet stated that 15,000 is maximum number of Vehicle Passes allotted for the Directed Group sale?
Or, stated that the Directed Group sale is on a 1 VP per 1 Ticket system?

From the "2014 Ticket Structure" page of the main site
Tickets and Vehicle Passes are limited to a maximum of two (2) per person.

You may buy up to as many Vehicle Passes as the maximum allowable number of tickets you may purchase in any given sale, i.e. in the Pre-Sale the ticket limit is up to four (4) per person, hence you could buy up to four (4) Vehicle Passes, and in all other sales the ticket limit is up to two (2) per person and you may buy up to two (2) Vehicle Passes.
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Re: Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

Postby Eric » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:33 pm

illy dilly wrote:Has the BMorg yet stated that 15,000 is maximum number of Vehicle Passes allotted for the Directed Group sale?


They have not stated that there is a maximum number of Vehicle Passes in any sale, just that the initial allotment would be 35,000. Jack Rabbit Speaks says 35,000 full stop, the FAQ does not - I'm assuming that they want people to try to plan to reduce the number of vehicles by having the "full stop" number in the JRS, but being the first year they know it might not go smoothly & have prepared for that. Based on the current people-to-cars ration (1.9) & the amount of tickets for sale this year, 35,000 should be fine.

Tickets and Vehicle Passes are limited to a maximum of two (2) per person.

You may buy up to as many Vehicle Passes as the maximum allowable number of tickets you may purchase in any given sale, i.e. in the Pre-Sale the ticket limit is up to four (4) per person, hence you could buy up to four (4) Vehicle Passes, and in all other sales the ticket limit is up to two (2) per person and you may buy up to two (2) Vehicle Passes.


My assumption, based on the way they sell tickets, is that you can buy 1 pass per ticket you purchase (ie: buy two tickets, you can buy two passes). They have not made it explicit, however, so we'll have to wait to see if they clarify it.



lucky420 wrote:I have some sharp implements you can have if you're ready to poke your eyes out now...


Fishy is correct, Mods are not allowed to poke our eyes out. We are just doomed to endlessly repeat the very first answer in the FAQ on Vehicle Passes while people freak out. Getting upset about the $40, or about having to have a pass, fine. Getting upset about them "running out" when they've phrased it in the FAQ to be pretty clear they're already planning for that scenario... *sigh*
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