Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Humin » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:49 am

I will continue to observe this thread. Good luck
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:25 am

@ bbadger- what do i do with the excess part of the 2x4 sticking out? if i rotate em all from the ceiling 90 degrees wont it have less surface area actually holding it on there? it seems like it would be weaker. I agree that basics of construction will help, I have seen plenty of framing done, built plenty of fences, im an auto mechanic by day, i have a technical mind and im sure after the 2nd ball is done i will hit it right. I came up with some ideas last night i just need to put em on paper.

Snow! Internal guying? wow im going to google that, and yes please send some info when less drunk! haha And what do you mean an octagon has 8 sides? I know that, Cant you count>? lol did i say seven somewhere? i was like ohh shit whatt!!! but nah i cant find a mistake

I wont get shut down it will be so solid and sturdy i promise.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:58 am

Correction- badger. I will get a book and yes i understand now if i can make the whole roof go longways then i could add the cross supports longways too. TThe next ball wont have a bottom deck, but all the walls will connect to eachother and then the roof piece will slip over all the walls and will have the "right way" holding up the plywood, good deal, i thought about it in the shower, thank you rthank you thank you!
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby ranger magnum » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:26 pm

What type of mechanic are you? Ive been wrenching for 20+ years. My specialty is 50's-70's american. I have a 64 impala ss409 and a 62 impala rag. Both frame off rotisserie builds. Currently building a 53 buick roadmaster convertible. Used to build bikes as well. Was big into sportbikes; raced AMA Superbike for 4 years, but a few big crashes stopped that. Then got into spec Miata with SCCA and NASA and did that for 3 years until the economy fell.

Really want to do an art car, but the big issue is storage and time. The buick is for a client, and he wants to be driving it in a year or so. I just got the body in primer, so assembly can start in month or two. The chassis and motor are done, so its really downhill from here, but assembly takes serious time. I do all my own fabrication, body and paint, so that saves time, but since this is being done in my "spare" time, it still will take a while.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:45 pm

woooo! im a totally different type of mechanic lol, Ive always been into tuners and just stripping down cars tot eh bare minimum, seeing what i can get away with, i never cared about prime and paint and stuff, just speed and noise, lol Im into nascar and the like. lol. I had a really sporty 88 honda crx that i learned to work on. Now my only car is my 95 dakota Mv/artcar. daily driver makes it easy to keep up and store, im turning it into a motor home after september. :) Im on year six of auto repair at independent shops so jobs are readily available, im good but im still far from a supertech. I have always wanted to work for a race team! that must have been the tits! im the same way, i try to do EVERYTHING myself to save cash and time. I just recently made my own dashboard for the dakota, I pretty much kicked out the old one and made a cardboard template, closed the doors and sprayed the canned spray insulation foam all over it. The guage cluster sits flush and i was able to make a center surface big enough for all the switches and locks, windows, all relocated to the center. you seem like a hardcore car guy man, haha when i grow up i wanna be like you :D , but a little more on the rat roddy side lol. It sounds like you have storage and style lol, im sure your MV will be awesome!!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby ranger magnum » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:09 pm

Cool! My girl is an ase certified wrench too. So this is a car household for sure. Im looking at building a rat rod. 50-55 dodge or plymouth. Though im a gm guy through and through, I want something different. A Cranbrook, Savoy or even a Belvedere. Shit, Id even do a packard, though its a bit big. So if you see something like that pm me asap.

I did some tuner stuff back in the day. Had a 22r powered toyota. Put a quad port manifold and dual weber 45 DCOE's. I worked the head a bit and did a 3 angle on it, but the bottom end was stock. Headers, a cam, and non cat exhaust finished it. It would chirp 3rd gear too!
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:23 am

nice i only have my ase a1- (engine repair) i actually have to re-certy soon lol. cranbrook, savoy, packard, never heard of any of those lol. ill keep an eye out for realllly old cars lololol ;)
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Snow » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:31 pm

well the short version (short on time) is that cables are run from the top of the stucture (usually at the corners) down to earth anchors that are driven into the playa. We've used this method on several structures, most recently on Burn Wall Street. The earth anchors are augers that can be driven by equipment pre-arranged through the artery. Think of it as your foundation. Also speaking of foundations, if you plan on burning this structure you'll need to have the required burn pad. In fact there are lots of considerations if you plan on burning it, this is a good place to START http://www.burningman.com/installations ... e_art.html

And the # of sides for an octagon was just a drunken joke. 8)

and you can PM me too, I respond best to email.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:43 pm

awesome thanks, yes i have already looked thru the requirements and criteria, I think im going to arrange for the crushed granite pile lol, do you think if i add another wire before the burn on the inside and pull it tight from top to bottom that the structure will burn and collapse in on itself, how far out should i expect, all 30 ft? can i get that much granite? im really just in standby waiting till next month to send in the submission. Building the second ball thursday evening! thanks for the help, can the augers be put in by hand, with a loooonnnggg breaker bar type thing? Im trying to avoid any machinery that i dont already have, i dont want to use ANY rented/ borrowed machines, i want to totally rely on my self and a couple good crew. and a budget truck lol

thanks for the support humin, thanks to all!!!
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby ranger magnum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm

While being totally self sufficent is good in theory, id highly recommend gettimg some assistance from the org, in whatever capacity they are able to provide it in. You are gonna have a helluva time hand driving augers....
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Bob » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:49 pm

ranger magnum wrote:While being totally self sufficent is good in theory, id highly recommend gettimg some assistance from the org, in whatever capacity they are able to provide it in. You are gonna have a helluva time hand driving augers....


And you're a ranger? That's what they're teaching you these days?
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby ranger magnum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:11 pm

My advice has nothing to do with being a ranger. It has to do with this guy taking on a pretty big project, with little outside help.

Why dont you go play in your room and let the adults talk.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:26 pm

*blink, blink, blink*
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Bob » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:30 pm

Rangers were spinning six-inch anchors in the ground by hand for radio towers when Hector was a pup.

Sure you're a ranger? You sound more like mommy.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby ranger magnum » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:51 pm

Last I checked rangers dont help set up art installations.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:15 pm

hey hey hey! yall are harshing my mellow! If i can drive em in by hand i would rather do that. If i google augers and guy wires will i find what i need? how much do those cables cost? are there any other materials i can do it with that are less expensive? i bet i can hammer a huge treaded spike into the ground, affix a really long pole to it and spin that fucker down. does the digging limit (3x1) or (1x3) (i forgot) is that the same for holes for guy wires or is that like digging for other stuff? i remember reading you cant dig more than a foot down or 3 feet across. the adults lol, im most likely the youngest fucker in here lol! :oops: i want to be totally diy, we are using pulleys and rope and shit for this thing. thank you all for the input so far, its really making me think more about everything and how im planning this next ball/ the big boy. Im kinda half way thru designing the 2nd ball with ALot more structural integrity and the same amount of wood! :mrgreen:
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:17 pm

insert clever pun about who has the biggest dick here lol... :lol:
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:54 pm

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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:00 pm

Thanks a ton figjam!!! are these what yall use? how much can they hold? im not sure what to ask exactly lol, "are these what I need?" lol Thank you :!: :wink:
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:07 pm

I use 3/8"X14" for my 12X40 shade instead of stakes cause the 3/8 fit through the grommets perfectly.

By using my hole hog drill I don't have to pound or pull stakes.

Once you get past the first 4 to 6 inches, it's very dense clay, so the threads have'nt let anything pull out YET!!! 8)
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Bob » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:21 pm

ranger magnum wrote:Last I checked rangers dont help set up art installations.


Thank God for small favors.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Major Krash » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:41 am

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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby laura* » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:16 am



Those diagonal braces aren't good enough to provide shear strength. The old fashioned way* to provide diagonal shear strength is this: Take a 1x4 board and lay it diagonally flat against the outside of a wall segment - corner to corner, bottom to top. Mark where the 1x4 crosses each 2x4 and cut 3/4 inch deep notches so that you "let" the 1x4 "into" the 2x4's. In case you're having trouble understanding where the 1x4 goes, it'll be flat right behind the sheathing you've put on the outside.

* This is still done today, but there is less need to do this when plywood is available. The old way is also probably not good enough for earthquake shear support.

I'm wondering how you'll get your upper levels lifted into position! They are going to be quite heavy. Also how are you going to transport them - will you have a huge trailer or do you plan on bringing "sticks" and stick building them on site? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick-built_home
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Snow » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:54 am

I guess you could buy, install and remove earth anchors by hand, but WHY? We have always used the ones from the artery and they have nice equipment to make it happen in minutes (and they remove them). You could also instead of using a truck transport all your pieces by bicycle, sometimes self reliance doesn't make sense for EVERYTHING. The Artery is there to HELP you, I highly recommend using the help offered. I imagine there are better things to spend your limited time, energy and resources on than earth anchors (or hauling DG, or digging trenches, or using a crane or lift etc.). You can get as much DG for the burn pad as you need (you will be charged for it), again this is arranged and delivered through the artery, don't forget to bring a method to lay and smooth it (and allow for the day it takes). Spreading DG is a crappy job, so keep your helpers happy. And then you'll need to clean all the metal out of the DG, don't forget you need to clean up your mess as well as build it.

The lag bolts that figjam listed wouldn't be suitable for your structure. these are like what the artery will provide, install and remove for you (with a smile I might add) http://www.ropes-course.com/store/index ... Path=10_78

Cables are just your normal wire rope (and associated hardware), you can buy it nearly anywhere. You will need to provide your own guy lines. The size you need depends on your structure.

Will you have anything squirt out of the top? that of course would be awesome.

And WOW that dashboard is CRAZY!!!! I haven't seen anything like that since someone spiked my haggis with acid.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:57 pm

Snow knows!!! 8)
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Bob » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:49 pm

Snow wrote:I guess you could buy, install and remove earth anchors by hand, but WHY?....


Because a 4" x 40" helical anchor with a welded eye costs ~$6 from an orchard & vineyard supplier, takes about five minutes to spin in or out of the ground with a length of 3/4" pipe, you can do it on your own schedule, you only need three of them, and it's one less thing for which you need to ask permission and wait in line?

Back in 2000 I had a crew of rather pale and underfed goth types install thirty of these by hand for the Beaming Man project. They also raised ten 30-foot truss towers by hand, aided by mounting them on hinged platforms.

Alternatively, you could use a pair of 3/4" x 36" concrete form stakes crossed at the top at the ground surface so they work in tandem.

What's more time consuming is when the art department demands that you install fencing so art cars and bicyclists don't run into the guy lines. Figure on working this or something equally as effective into your design. But yes, the art department can call a crew in to do this as well, if you're too lame to do it yourself.

Guy lines typically used for the Cafe, the Man & the org's radio towers are 5/16" wire rope with turnbuckles at the bottom end. Obtain at any rigging supplier. Figure on placing stakes or anchors at a horizontal distance of about half the height.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Snow » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:10 pm

Note Bob YOU didn't install or raise any of that, you just used slave labor as your machine.

and we are talking about internal guying which is much better ascetically, in this case, resulting in a higher pull out force, than external guying. Now I haven't run the calcs for this structure so I don't know, but those that you mention may be undersized (or maybe not). 4" augers wouldn't be bad to spin in by hand. the ones we had last year (far overkill for this, would be beyond hand installation). 6" augers could be done but you better bring a few pipes cuz you will bend them (been there done that)

again bob, internal anchors do away with gaudy areas of snow fencing that the artery would demand/provide for keeping people off the guy anchor points. I mean who wants to see a giant phallus with wire rigging viagra holding it up.

and figjams lag idea seems really good for small shade stuff, i may give that a try instead of rebar for camp.
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:04 pm

Look at where the angled tarp connects to the playa.

9 lag bolts screwed in right through the grommets till they were flush with the ground.

It's the only place the shade is ancored to the ground and no pounding or pulling! 8)

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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:12 pm

holy cow where do i start!!! thank yall so much, this thing is on a ROLL!!!!!!

Bob i like your style, Im sticking with bringing my own means of getting it to stick and grab. Hell, ill bring my own anchors, It will be my first year and i dont want to get shafted or left crying because they ran out of anchors or that yall are all blowing hot air up my ass lol. a fence wont be a problem at all because thats what the entire shell will be made of, lol, is white picket acceptable?
snow, Im sure that using the artery's crap is easy. This project is long and hard. (zoing!!!) and hell yes so much stuff will squirt from the top!
FIRE< MIST, SMOKE! we poof it all out!!! join the group, we have every last detail in there. thanks for the info about the guy lines too :) and yes i love my dash lol, Thank you!!!

What do you mean i have to find all the metal and clean it? i thought we just left all our mess out there in the desert! ;) i suppose next your going to tell me there is no trashcans!!! lol (i am super lnt, almost completely fucking mad LNT) not a drop!!!!

Laura im not quite sure what you mean. i kind of understand, do you mean use a planer to make notches so it kinda jigsaws over the walls?
My design is pretty darn radical each module has a bottom ring, middle ring and top ring, they lay flat. Each ring has brackets/(shoes) built in exactly where the walls go. Each wall is premade and i will simply just pull one up, stab it, contuinue doing that untill all 8 are up, then snap the top on and bolt it all together, I can build each module single handedly in 25 minutes. i have yet to start going up over the 6ft mark so im sure the higher i go the longer it will all take but im guessing i could pull in and have the whole thing built in about a day. with two helpers. and a LOTTTTT of booze. upper levels will be a snap, each wall is just 3x6 we could pull that up with a piece of twine., transport will be easy, one big truck, each module breaks down to an 11 piece stack. we will have 7 stacks of 11 so 77 pieces, plus extra for supports, replacements, all the fence slats to cover it. the longest part will be nailing all the fence slats around it, I encourage all of you to join our group on facebook. I would have a website but im really cheap. https://www.facebook.com/groups/507851795900953/ many questions will be answered and you can see all the sketch ups with explanations, features, interactive elements, the whole cow!!!

much love to all of you! every day i come home from work and am just amazed by the communal effort among us!!! You all deserve a shirt or something!!!! lol
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Re: Need tips building a 30 ft wooden octogon

Postby Froves » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:14 pm

internal guying!!! help!!!! how does this work, i cant wrap my brain around it, it seems like it would be more at risk of pulling out and or someone getting caught up in the wire while climbing, falling, slipping, tripping, etc.
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