Who wants a ride in 2004?

Questions, answers, tips & tricks for newbies and veterans alike

Postby Flux » Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:55 am

lapeer20m wrote:anybody know where i can get 1000 gallons of water in reno?? Here in Michigan water is taken for granted, but i understand that it's much more of a commodity in the desert.

Get one of those five-sided wrenches and a length of fire hose. Then, late at night...
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Postby lapeer20m » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:17 pm

I am a local firefighter, and i did consider momentarily bringing along a hydrant wrench and a lengh to 2 and a half inch hose. then i came to the realization that stealing water in the desert is probably a hanging offense. Besides, I am an honest boy.
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Postby Chai Guy » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:34 pm

besides which, that would have to be one hell of a long hose to connect to the nearest hydrant.
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Postby lapeer20m » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:36 am

the momentary thought of stealing water would have been from a hydrant in reno.
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Postby Chai Guy » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:11 pm

Ahhhhhhh..... Now I see!
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Postby DangerMouse » Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:36 pm

Hrm, stop at a camp sight the Sunday before BM opens and fill the tanks then? Figure 2 gallons per minute (very conservative I know), and it'll take some 3 hours 20 minutes to fill the drums.

I wonder if there's some sort of portable charcoal/water filter you can get. Like you use on fish tanks? The problem is I figure the playa dirt/dust (not really sand is it?) is probably easily suspended in water.

But Shower before using tub is probably a good thing. Might also want to come up w/ a way to wash your feet off before getting in as you'll have to walk from the shower, track dirt in, etc.

Anyway, I'll drop you a line tonight or tomorrow, I'm definitely interested in hitching a ride.
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Postby lapeer20m » Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:09 am

getting water from a campground is an excellent idea ! Shouldn't take too long, i think 10 gallons per minute is probably a mininum standard....but who cares how fast it is...it's only time.

As for filtration.........the hot tub comes standard with a paper cartrige filter, obviously i'm going to use that. I figure it takes about an hour in "filter mode" to cycle the 400 gallons of water in the hot tub through the filter. This is fine for normal circumstances, but i expect lots of ickyness, mostly playa dust entering the pool. I plan to purchase a swimming pool filter. These filters use special sand to filter out particles down to about 40 microns. The filter should cycle the 400 gallons several times per hour. hopefully the two filters will help significantly with keeping the water sparkly clean.

Anyone know if 40 microns is enough to filter out playa dust????
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Postby lapeer20m » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:38 pm

I was just looking at a humidifier that sears sells. it's rated for 13 gallons per day. For someone like me who has electricity to spare having one or two of these to get rid of the grey water sounds like a wonderful idea. If it's rated for 13 gallons in a house in michigan in the winter, i bet it will do 20 or more gallons in the desert per day with the high temperatures and low humidity. The best part is, i see humidifiers in the classifieds for free all the time, so there's no significant investment.


anybody have any comments on this idea?
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Postby DangerMouse » Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:02 pm

lapeer20m wrote:I was just looking at a humidifier that sears sells. it's rated for 13 gallons per day. For someone like me who has electricity to spare having one or two of these to get rid of the grey water sounds like a wonderful idea. If it's rated for 13 gallons in a house in michigan in the winter, i bet it will do 20 or more gallons in the desert per day with the high temperatures and low humidity. The best part is, i see humidifiers in the classifieds for free all the time, so there's no significant investment.


anybody have any comments on this idea?


I'd be concerned that dust would get in it and 'gum it up'. From everything I've read, basic rule of thumb is take nothing you're willing to lose either to passing hands, or to the playa. Although it looks like several people have made successful evap ponds from 2x4's and black plastic. Though someone would need to cover it in case of a dust storm, else you get a mud pond instead...

Maybe build a shower area that is slightly raised inside of the evap pond so the run-off evaps directly out of it?
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Postby Kinetic II » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:13 am

My advice to you is simple. Never underestimate the power of the playa to destroy the best of plans. DangerMouse's post is spot on, and the only thing I will add is it's not a bad idea on some BM projects to over-engineer things. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. The worst would be whiteouts with dust flying past at 40, 50, hell even 75 mph or Category 1 Hurricane speeds. If you plan for that and the other extremes listed in the survival and first timer's guides you'll be in reasonable shape.
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Postby Badger » Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:57 am

The worst would be whiteouts with dust flying past at 40, 50, hell even 75 mph or Category 1 Hurricane speeds.


In my view, the worst thing that happens to the unprepared is dealing with 2-3 days of rain.

My gut tells me that I should really consider this for next year. The last few events have been almost too dry.
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Postby Kinetic II » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:35 pm

Badger, your right...everyone and their brother mentions the wind...but the rain and resulting muck are even worse. I've just added that to my design considerations list. Thanks for the reminder.
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Postby BlueBirdPoof » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:44 pm

Badger wrote:In my view, the worst thing that happens to the unprepared is dealing with 2-3 days of rain.

My gut tells me that I should really consider this for next year. The last few events have been almost too dry.


May I suggest closing your eyes, clicking your heels together and saying "Global Warming is my Friend, Global Warming is my Friend, Global Warming is my Friend."

That should quiet those intrusive thoughts.
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2004 riders wanted

Postby MrChevere » Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:34 pm

That bus sounds like fun. I hope it all comes together.

I'm going next year and wll have room for a couple of people from the SF Bay Area. I have a full size pick up with a king cab. I can easily take a couple of bikes and probably whatever gear two people can bring.

Share gas expenses, driving and stories.

this might be kinda early to be asking but why not?
It was like this when I got here, honest.
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Postby lapeer20m » Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:40 pm

i'm suprised at the negative feedback is received about using a humidifier for grey water disposal. It seems to me that it would be much easier to keep sand from getting in the almost totally sealed container that makes up the humidifier than it would be to keep it out of a large pond. And these things are free in the newspapers. All i'm really loosing is the space on the bus. I'm going to try this idea regardless of it's lack of popularity.
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Postby III » Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:47 pm

>sand

you keep saying sand. i'm guessing you've never actually been to the event before, huh?
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Postby DangerMouse » Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:19 pm

lapeer20m wrote:It seems to me that it would be much easier to keep sand from getting in the almost totally sealed container that makes up the humidifier than it would be to keep it out of a large pond.


I'm not trying to be negative, it's just that it's not sand. It's dust, and it gets into everything. What's more is it's heavily alkali based, so its corrosive, and not so good on electronic devices.

It's a good idea in theory, but it's probably $50 or more, easy to walk off with, and I'd hate to see playa dust eat a new piece of gear. =(
It'd probably work while you're at BM, the problem is, it might not work next year as it'd probably corrode from the dust in it from '04.
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Postby lapeer20m » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:58 am

i'm counting on the fact that the humidifiers are going to be free. They only need to work for the week that we're at Bm, then they can be disposed of on the way home. Maybe i'll build an evap pond also and compare the performance of the two. IF all else fails, i'll just haul the water out of bm.

I've never been there and have never dealt with the dust before. I'm certian that i have lots to learn
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Postby Bob » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:17 am

III wrote:>sand
you keep saying sand. i'm guessing you've never actually been to the event before, huh?


In-situ playa soil might be about one percent fine sand, if the sieve test I did was representative. A bit more sand if you're standing in the dunes along the west-side road or on the way to Soldier Meadow. Salts, oxides, or whatever might amount to a few percent by weight. The bulk of playa soil is about half clay, half silt sizes.

The stickiest stuff in it is montmorillonite, a clay mineral commonly derived from volcanic ashfall deposits. Drilling mud -- bentonite -- is a type of montmorillonite. Clays minerals typically have sheet-like crystalline structures, in which the bonds holding together the crystal lattice are much stronger than interlayer bonds. Montmorillonites may break down into sheets of unit cell thickness (about 1 µm), so they have a very high "specific surface" that may range up to 800 sq meters per gram. The surface area contributes to the ability to hold adsorbed water -- montmorillonite may hold onto more than five times its weight in water and remain plastic (before becoming liquid), which in turn contributes to the formation and potential thickness of "playa platforms" on the soles of one's boots after a short, intense rainfall event.
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Postby DangerMouse » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:53 am

Bob wrote:The stickiest stuff in it is montmorillonite, a clay mineral commonly derived from volcanic ashfall deposits. Drilling mud -- bentonite -- is a type of montmorillonite. Clays minerals typically have sheet-like crystalline structures, in which the bonds holding together the crystal lattice are much stronger than interlayer bonds. Montmorillonites may break down into sheets of unit cell thickness (about 1 µm), so they have a very high "specific surface" that may range up to 800 sq meters per gram. The surface area contributes to the ability to hold adsorbed water -- montmorillonite may hold onto more than five times its weight in water and remain plastic (before becoming liquid), which in turn contributes to the formation and potential thickness of "playa platforms" on the soles of one's boots after a short, intense rainfall event.


*blink*

Right, so if I multiplex this 2x4 over here...
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Shhhhh.... he's thinking....

Postby Last Real Burner » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:03 am

then invert the dirivative and quantise the exponent...Image

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Postby lapeer20m » Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:39 am

that's quite a description of playa sand/dust ect. Will a standard swimming pool filter (sand type) filter out the playa dust??
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Hmm... Hmmm.Hummm...Hummm...

Postby Last Real Burner » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:39 pm

Don't know. Whistle a few bars maybe we can fake it.

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Postby lapeer20m » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:07 pm

I'm considering purchasing a windmill to generate some of the needed electricity while on the playa. Mostly just for expiermentation. I already have a 2000w inverter, and a bank of batteries. Among other things, i plan to run a large chest freezer, a small a/c unit, and possibly a couple of humidifiers.
I dont' need the electricity from the windmill, i already have 2 generators plus the alternator from the bus engine. It's something i've been interested in for a long time, and the playa seemed like a good excuse to purchase a windmill.


anyone have expierence with generating electricity with a windmill??
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Postby DangerMouse » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:22 pm

Hrm, I wonder if any of the AEZ (Alternative Energy Zone) folks are lurking about.

There are some links regarding wind here.

http://www.hot-pages.com/generetiquette/

I think they're in to the AEZ bit, and might be able to point you in the right direction if there is contact info on that page.

Though you'll want to consider really anchoring that thing down. It's not unheard of to have 70+ mph gusts on the playa.
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Postby Bob » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:24 pm

anyone have expierence with generating electricity with a windmill??


Did you search the main website?
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pool on the playa

Postby antron » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:49 pm

there's been a pool in the oregon country faire camp for at least the last couple of years. it gets murky really fast, and stays that way pretty much the whole week despite the constant use of a filter.

if you want to experiment with something commonly available with nearly the consistency of the playa, you can go to home depot, buy a bag of joint taping compound, sprinkle it in the pool and run the filter.
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Postby III » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:24 pm

windmills, like ther air405 or whatever it's called, work pretty well out there, but are loud and may drive your neigbors crazy.

make sure you get the proper one (12v vs 24v) to match your system.
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Postby MrChevere » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:30 pm

spend your money on solar panels.
It was like this when I got here, honest.
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Postby lapeer20m » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:57 pm

solar panels are not for me. They're way too expensive for the ammount of power they produce. I live in the great white north, which makes solar panels even more obsolete. Wind generators are relatively cheap, and michigan is a decent wind state so i can use this device somewhere besides burningman. The plan is to mount a mast to the bus that can easily be put up and taken down. I'm not sure how tall yet, but height is might.

as for the drywall joint taping compound, thanks for the tip. I"ll do some expirementation with that. A swimming pool filter should cycle the volume of water contained in the hot tub several times per hour.
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