Kids & Teenagers at Burning Man

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Kids at Burning Man?

Yes
335
59%
No
229
41%
 
Total votes : 564

Postby diode » Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:26 pm

Stormy wrote:
diode wrote: I believe the kid-friendly burn will suppress this kind of behavior even though two years ago it was acceptable.


I am very curious as to what you meant by this. :?:


I think the rough edges of BM are being swept under the carpet to make the event more acceptable to society. I don't KNOW that this is true, just making assumptions based on what I hear and read.

I see BM showing up in places like Sports Illustrated and Bicycling magazine (at least I think it was in SI..maybe not, but in more mass media for sure).

I believe I will still see acts of outrageous freedom out on the playa, but perhaps the ones that are more confrontational or charged will somehow magically stop being there.

I don't know that ths changes anything for me. I've never been over-the-top outrageous. BM is still a tremendous opportunity for being creative and unique. I'm looking forward to the burn even though last year I was pretty sure I would never attend again.

In a kid-friendly house, you cover the outlets, put away the dirty magazines, and cover the hard edges. In a kid-friendly burn...? Read your ticket, you could die! Not at a kid-friendly burn. Read your ticket...your right to spontaneous expression stops at my kid.
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Postby Stormy » Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:50 pm

I think the rough edges of BM are being swept under the carpet to make the event more acceptable to society. I don't KNOW that this is true, just making assumptions based on what I hear and read.

I see BM showing up in places like Sports Illustrated and Bicycling magazine (at least I think it was in SI..maybe not, but in more mass media for sure).


I sure as hell hope that no one is actively trying to make this event more acceptable to society.

I believe I will still see acts of outrageous freedom out on the playa, but perhaps the ones that are more confrontational or charged will somehow magically stop being there.


Can you, um, pass me that pipe? I hope I wake up and see Bush magically out of the White House.

In a kid-friendly house, you cover the outlets, put away the dirty magazines, and cover the hard edges. In a kid-friendly burn...? Read your ticket, you could die! Not at a kid-friendly burn. Read your ticket...your right to spontaneous expression stops at my kid.


Holy mixed messages Batman, what does this really mean? My ticket says what?!? Agreed a place where you could die, doesn't seem the kid friendliest place to me. So, um, are all the parents going to post their rules somewhere telling us what is acceptable and not acceptable in front of their kids? People might want to know before the cops come in and start writing tickets.
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Postby Lydia Love » Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:39 am

your right to spontaneous expression stops at my kid.


It's the fucking desert - a dangerous environment all by itself. You can't pad the fucking desert or take away all the danger. Even if you (shudder) magically erased the spontaneous expression there would still be the rebar stakes and really big fires... sounds like *your* child at least should be left with grandma, and her well-hidden porn.

I like kids. I like seeing them at burning man. But I'm going to be checking out this family friendly shit this year and if I feel squelched by it I'll probably be spending my vacation time at various regional burns instead of the big one.
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Postby dust devil » Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:10 am

[quote]It's the fucking desert - a dangerous environment all by itself.[/quote]

Images of Burning Man cultivated in the media downplay the extreme forces of the environment in favor of emphasis on the social / hedonic.

Were this understood, I suspect only the bravest and best prepared would chance a situation where they might have to explain why little Sally was spending the week with no plumbing and no electricity, exposed to 100 degree F temperatures and 70 mph wind gusts, when she fell into the fire, came down with food poisoning, etc.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:35 am

dust devil wrote:[when she fell into the fire,
More likely at Rainbow, unless you mean the actual burns.
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Postby diode » Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:58 pm

Lydia Love wrote:
your right to spontaneous expression stops at my kid.

sounds like *your* child at least should be left with grandma, and her well-hidden porn.


I don't have children. I'm not advocating against spontaneous expression, au contraire. Read the post again. it's meant to be ironic.

My point isn't that children should be banned, only that the BM organization is promoting the burn as kid-safe as a way of promoting the event to larger audience, or so I perceive. Kids have always been there.

I've never seen a child that wasn't supervised and safe on the playa. Be a sad day if I every do. I once saw a mom glittered and sequined riding like blazes towards the deep playa with her two offspring riding behind her like two baby whales followng the mother ship.

In the effort to promote kid-friendly values, I wonder if the rougher edges of the event will be swept away or kept off the playa and inside tent walls.
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Postby diode » Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:05 pm

Stormy wrote:
I think the rough edges of BM are being swept under the carpet to make the event more acceptable to society.


I sure as hell hope that no one is actively trying to make this event more acceptable to society.

I believe I will still see acts of outrageous freedom out on the playa, but perhaps the ones that are more confrontational or charged will somehow magically stop being there.


Can you, um, pass me that pipe? I hope I wake up and see Bush magically out of the White House.


What I meant is that people, perceiving a kid-friendly environment, may start censoring themselves and not pushing the envelope in their personal behavior.

Bottom line: who really gives a flying flup. The man's going to burn in 14 days. What am I doing on the eplaya. Yikes!
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Postby Stormy » Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:10 pm

Bottom line: who really gives a flying flup. The man's going to burn in 14 days. What am I doing on the eplaya. Yikes!


No kidding, it's moving into panic time here and yet, I still find time to go online.
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Postby JezebelinHell » Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:34 am

Yeah, I should really be organizing my stuff and finishing my house-cleaning, and instead I'm here...oh well.
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Kids @ Burning Man?

Postby soupman » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:27 am

This year I noticed a large number of families on the playa, with more kid-oriented camps and attractions scattered throughout the site. I think it's great that these parents are bringing up their kids with the open-minded attitude that is many times required to attend and that they are exposing their kids to an environment that is open-minded, selfless and positive, but it seems as though it's definitely raising some issues with what is acceptable for them to experience (profanity/censorship, public nudity, "racy" camps and other adult topics). Do you think the presence of children on the playa will lead to tighter restrictions on self-expression? Do you think children have a place at an event that is full of such wonderful hedonism? Parents- Did you find yourself monitoring your kids a little more so they didn't see some of the more adult things? Do you think there should be certain areas set aside for more adult-themed camps so parents know not to take them there? Do you think Burning Man would be better off as a "No Minor" event?


Just curious...
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Postby Rob the Wop » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:46 am

Please add, "Children taste like chicken." to your poll. Thank you.
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Postby thinkcooper » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:40 pm

This idiot offhandedly promised his 11-12 Y.O. son and his 15 Y.O. daughter that he would bring them to Burning Man if they got on the Honor Role. They aren't the most academic kids so odds are pretty good I won't have to lay down tickets in '05, but they could pull it off. I'd love the LLC to help me out here and designate the event as an 18+ event. Then I can weasel out of my ill-conceived promise. :lol:
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Postby jimbobby » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:38 pm

will lead to
Code: Select all

should read as

has lead to
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Postby geekster » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:00 pm

Tough call for me. If folks want to bring their kids, I think they should be allowed to. Cities have children. Like any city there are probably parts where you don't want them to go. Now that I give it some thought, maybe the kids can save BRC. What better reason can you think of for ejecting the yahoos? Seeing the kids might dampen their yahooness a little and make them want to stay home next year. Personally my purpose for going to burning man isn't sex (I get that at home thankyouverymuch) or seeing naked people (same) or getting shitfaced intoxicated and going wild. So having kids there isn't going to dimish MY experiance. Besides, I have small children of my own ( 3 and 5 ) so I am used to the little ankle-biters being around.

Damn, still getting withdrawal pangs ... just heard Dido's "Sand In My Shoes" and thought about BRC.
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Postby geekster » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:05 pm

And besides, what a wonderful expression of community for a couple to get married at BRC, have children and have those children also grow up as citizens of the city. I say it would be a wonderful expression of love for their fellow burners. I suppose it just depends on if burningman is just a wild-assed party to you or if it is community.
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Postby Ibby » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:15 pm

I like children, but I can't finish a whole one :wink:
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Postby soupman » Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:53 am

geekster wrote:And besides, what a wonderful expression of community for a couple to get married at BRC



I attended a wedding at Astral Headwash (our neighbors for the week- thanks placement!), I believe it was Wednesday?... the day it rained... Robin and Earth, beautiful couple, and it only rained during the ceremony, right at sunset... it was so absolutely amazing that it brought tears to my eyes. :)
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:03 am

Kids are short people.

Just one note. I would sure hate to see one hurt. Saw two little(and I mean little)girl on a trampoline with no cover on the side springs,no side net and no adult. These guys were so small they had to have been lifted to get on. So WHERE was the adult?
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tough question

Postby regynalonglank » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:31 am

I have a 2 1/2 year old, I did not bring her. It just seems like a very harsh environment for a kid, if they don't actually have to be there exposing them to that kind of survival training seems like it could wait until they are old enough to choose it for themselves. I brought her to Joshua Tree last new years, and she had fun, but it was hard to watch her brave the cold at night and heat during the day, just so i could rock climb. i had a totally different experience without her, i could concentrate on myself rather than wish i could and take it out on her. she stayed home with her daddy, we are separated and he did not want to go this year, thank goodness. if he had we would have had to work it out somehow, but i'm glad we didn't have to. the kids i saw seemed to be struggling, not really having fun. although there is a lot of great community, and art, and neat stuff to see there is also a lot of darker stuff too, besides the sex which to me is already being kept to its own areas...which is fine. i think it is good that you can seek out or not seek out these things, even as an adult, rather than just having it all right in your face. it seems to me it would be counter to the philosophy of BRC to say you can't bring kids, it is about personal choice after all. but i don't think i would choose to bring mine. at least not until she really wanted to, and knew what she was getting herself into, which won't be for a while!
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Postby sparkletarte » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:35 pm

I met the sweetest, friendliest bunch of young ladies near the ice place one day. There was 5 of them, ranging from about 3-6 I'm guessing. We had a nice visit and talked about where they'd been, where they were going, what else they had planned for the day, and what their favourite things were. They had their own water bottles, and were being chaparoned by one of their dads. It was one of my favourite visits.

On the other hand, I saw a couple young kids that looked like they were in serious need of water and didn't look too thrilled with things.

It's up to the parents, and also up to the parents to look after their kids properly. As in the rest of the world, there are lots of parenting styles, and kids who will do fine in one place where other wouldn't be okay.
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Yes to kids, no to perverts

Postby M-Files » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:28 pm

Labelling BM as a 21+ event would be akin to proclaiming:

BURNING MAN HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN DECARED ADULTS ONLY!
ADULTS ONLY = HOT SEX, GUARANTEED!
ALL PERVERTS REPORT TO BURNING MAN FOR GUARANTEED HOT SEX!

Get the picture?

Some burners are also parents, and if they're willing to care for their kids on the playa, then they and their families should be welcomed by us all.

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Re: Yes to kids, no to perverts

Postby geekster » Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:48 pm

M-Files wrote:Some burners are also parents, and if they're willing to care for their kids on the playa, then they and their families should be welcomed by us all.
M-Files


Thanks for saying that, M. It's the same way I feel. I have been thinking about bringing mine at some point in the future, probably not 05, but maybe 06.
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Postby markslut » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:14 pm

I think the isssue is that the presence of the few kids is being used to set the bar for what the adults can and cannot do in public. I will always remenber the fantastic Jiffy Lube sign that was removed because it was too sexual for kids to see. It was a cartoon, graphic but a cartoon. It wasn't the parents or the Burning LLC folks taking down the sign, it was the LEOs saying that this needed to be taken off the street because kids might see it. If the LEOs insist on making Burning Man kid safe, where will the censorship stop?

Without kids present would the Jiffy Lube sign have been allowed to stay on the street? This year would the Orgasmatron have been moved off the esplanad? Next year will the dancing cages have to moved behind a wall? Eventually will anything that kids shouldn't see have to kept inside a dome?

Right now it seems like the LEOs through the kids are gradually cracking down with little or no resistance from the BMorg. I just want to see a conscious well thought out decision rather than this gradual eroision of expression. If the powers that be have decided that the kids are more important than the freedom of expression that has been a big part of the city or that some comprimise will work then state it, write it, but don't just gradually add restrictiions, that is too much like what happens outside BRC.
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Postby arthurz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:34 pm

Kids have been an integral part of Burning Man since Larry's kid burned a dog that first night he burned a man.

You can't build a community without them, and Burning Man is a community if it is anything more than a giant rave and art festival.

Those that say "parents who bring kids need to be responsible for them and control the experiences they have" are correct IMO, since we are about self-sufficiency, and parents exist to provide the extra sufficiency kids lack. We should not need LEOs nor BMORG rules for that unless individual parents fuck up, and it should be their fault, not some sex camp's.

Instead of voting about whether or not to have kids (Larry would never do the event without kids) may I suggest thinking of better ways to manage the LEO/sex camp trade-off than posting guards? We barely managed to avoid being sent to the sex camp zone and posting guards in our camp just because it had a dance pole, while art cars with poles were everywhere. My kids like ours almost as much as my wife does!

From a personal POV, I can't wait to bring my kids when they're older (diapers on the playa would surely suck) and while I'll do my best to prevent them from seeing things that in my opinion I can't explain to them yet, there is nothing at Burning Man I've ever seen that would be worse for them than prime time TV.

Kids yes, freedom yes, LEOs go home!
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Postby geekster » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:48 pm

Maybe I am all wrong but it seems to me that burningman didn't always have the explicit sexuality. Reading some history of the burns at Baker Beach seeing where Larry's kids built a wooden dog ... Friend of Burning Man.

Aw, fuck it ... I guess I don't want to tell anyone what they have or even should do. All I would want for me to bring my kids there is to know that there is at least an area somewhere that is acknowledged to be a kid area (like Kidsville is) and people generally tone it down a little there. As for the rest of the city, do whatever you want to do as far as I am concerned. Just give me a clear path to Center Camp so I can take the kids up there to maybe get their faces painted or get some cotton candy or something without having to suffer the pervs.

I am just not understanding the part about burningman that says "I can be a total dumbass here in the name of self-expression". One of the things any community must have if it is to function as a community is respect and some level of caring for one another. When I see the "I can do whatever I want, its burningman!" people, I think to myself ... "Oh, okay, I get it, your burningman is all about you".

I had a wonderful experiance this year. I met some of the sweetest people, was treated like family by complete strangers. Heck, one camp even offered me a bowl of hot chicken stew and a cold beer when they heard my tummy rumble during a 3am conversation on the couch in front of their camp. And a nice conversation it was. I didn't go to get plastered, though I managed to do that one night, but woke up in my own camp (thanks, guys!) I didn't get laid, but that isn't what I went there for either. I went for a sense of community that I think is lacking in our daily lives and could use a good recharging from time to time ... but that is just my burningman, I don't feel a need to impose it on anyone else, but if you could find it in your heart to allow me to have that kind of experiance, I would be very grateful to you for it.

My kids could use a dose of seeing people get along like that too. To see that not everyone in the world is out to get something and that maybe people do really WANT to do nice things to make each other smile and BRC seems like a pretty safe place to do that. I just want to wait until my youngest is old enough to "get it", to maybe understand and have memories that will last. So, please, don't shut my kids out. Your burningman might be a big party with drunken pervs and explicit sexuality and that is fine, I will defend your right to have that experiance with my very last breath ... let me also have mine, please. If the kids come back a second time, I want them to understand what "Welcome Home" means at BRC.
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Postby arthurz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:26 pm

Awesome Geekster!

Since you're in San Jose, come to some of our events! We have a wonderful community here and a few kids too...

Next is this Saturday night in Redwood City.

Arthur

PS: for all I know, I already know you...
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Postby geekster » Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:46 pm

Why, thanks, Arthur! It turns out that I just joined the Burning Silicon lists last night and received a copy of some upcoming events from Gidget in the mail this morning. I noticed the RWC event and have made plans to attend.

Yes, I know several of your group. I stopped by and talked to some over in Shangrila Village and Wizard was right down the street from me with the materials for the Pagoda. On my last day there, some of your folks camped at about 8:30 and Venus offered me some ice cold watermelon and a seat to rest my dogs.

You might very well know me but by a different name.

In any case, see you Saturday if we both manage to make it!
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Postby angelgabe » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:12 pm

i must have missed something-I had no idea there was a "sex camp zone".Since when?i thought B-man was a "sex camp zone".Why isnt this zone properly labeled,for ease of use?Im pissed,I must have spent all of my time in the"bindi workshop" zone,and the "its too dusty to see my own hand" zone.Next year,I hope they do label, it so i dont have to spend all my time going through the fluff.i know what some people say,label the sex zone and youll get nothing but look-y-loos,but Id rather have them learing at the sex camps then in areas more sensitive to them.

Basicly Im saying let the kids have Kids Camp,the sex addicts have sex camp,and keep them on opposite sides of the playa.And have a Deathmatch in the Thunderdome between the two on Burn Night.That would be cool...
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Postby arthurz » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:05 am

Geekster, hope to see you Sat. I'll be using the same name as here:-)

AngelGabe, they called it "soft zoning" this year, publicly stated where kids should camp (around 5:30) and rather quietly steered all the sex camps to the outskirts, mainly around 8:30 as far as I know.

I think they keep it kind of quiet or else every yahoo would walk up to Playa Info and ask "where can I find the sex camps?" A lot ask anyway, and my understanding is that the official Playa Info answer is "we don't know of any".

Maybe next year it will be more obvious, maybe they'll just declare a third of town off-limits to minors so each camp doesn't need its own guards, and maybe I'll also have time to actually go looking for them!

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Postby geekster » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:16 am

arthurz wrote:Geekster, hope to see you Sat. I'll be using the same name as here:-)


Strangely enough, in real life I tend to use my real name.
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