Kids & Teenagers at Burning Man

Questions, answers, tips & tricks for newbies and veterans alike

Kids at Burning Man?

Yes
335
59%
No
229
41%
 
Total votes : 564

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:58 am

I too have my doubts about the title of the thread (But who is the author of the C O W S and R U G S thread to object?) However, Zooligonia make some very worthy petinent meta-commentary about the kids issue.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:41 am

Alchemy wrote: <snip>..

/\
Your a "one in a milloin" The other dorks just think they can.


With my six, we had a rule: You can only go as far as "you" can see me.

Mom and I had a lot of fun watching then turning to see if they could still see us. There in there late 30s and 40s now. Still tell me if they are going to be a long way off. The tables are turning tho. Now I have a buddy cell phone and am expected to call every day, let then know where i am going and every thing. else.
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***Kids @ Burning Man***

Postby scotto » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:13 pm

Kids @ Burning Man are awesome with a little Ketchup and Relish
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Postby DVD Burner » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:49 pm

How do you feel kids at Burning Man? Feel what they feel.
When they are happy then feel that. When they are sad then feel that.


Pretty Simple to me.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:55 pm

Bob wrote:This is a perfect example of a thread I'd delete, if I were queen of the admins. But I'd probably wait a couple of days to to let the more useless eplaya perverts post, waggle their little cocks, etc., then slam the door on them. FWIW.


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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:58 pm

Bob wrote:This is a perfect example of a thread I'd delete, if I were queen of the admins. But I'd probably wait a couple of days to to let the more useless eplaya perverts post, waggle their little cocks, etc., then slam the door on them. FWIW.


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Postby Tancorix » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:04 pm

This thread gives me the fucking creeps. Someone coming in from the outside looking at the board could see this in the subject list and get the wrong impression fast.

Bob was right, this thread needs to be deleted. It's just wrong...no matter how you rationalize it.
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:02 pm

Zulegoona wrote:Sorry Bob, I just fallowed along with A II Z's poor attempt at humor using a sound alike title.

After witch I attempted to turn it into a serious comment on one of the things about American culture I find disturbing.

There are indeed good things about the fragmentation of the extended family, in many ways it gives us the freedom to step outside family expectations and attain a fulfill threw individualism. It's what makes us one of the most creative peoples on earth. The down side of fragmentation is Isolation and the uncertainty, self doubt, and fear that accompany it. These negative feelings are are expanded upon by advertising first trying to make people feel worse then telling them there product is the solution. Sensationalistic media also adds to the fear by highlighting the evils in the world to a point that parents believe there is a child molester behind every bush. To be far there are no "safe " places anywhere and never have been, at the same time the fear generated is completely out of proportion. Unrealistic fear is capitalized on by politicians and others with there own agendas casting suspicion on all adults. "Trying to make the world safe for children" is just one more thing that is twisting American society, a village can't raise a child if the parents are afraid every other adult in the village is a pervert.


Yes, I agree to Zulegoona statement 100%! He's right on the money!

Yes, it was a sarcastic reply to the "How do you feel about Kids at BM?" thread.

my opinion of BM is that there is no safer place (of course with a little supervision and TRUST) then BM. There are less attacks of every sort today, then there was 30 or 50 years ago, but todays media plays it like there's more. Kids at seven don't have the same freedoms that I had- shinning shoes on the streets of Pasaic NJ. I would feel so sorry for my mom, I was never home except for meals. Just out with the boys exploring our world. We met the perverts and conquered them. We learned to grow up without our parents holding our hands at every turn. I am street wise and can use that experience any were in the world to protect me.

We create more laws to shelter their lives every year. The drinking age use to be seventeen, now it's twenty one what's next 25 then 30's. It's still sixteen in most Europe countries and crime, out of wedlock births are still falling there. Isolating our children from learning about themselves and the world around them just impieds their growth. We are destroying their lives with news induced paranoia. People today believe lies and rumors more then criminal records!

Bob- if anyone that has a joke to post do you think that they are some creep or just expressing a little playa humor?

What has Eplaya become the "can't do anything place because someone might get the wrong impression of BM so watch what you joke about here!" Be careful with that avatar someone might think that you're supporting drugs and sex! They're watching! I hope that they are laughing if some of have stopped!

In the world opinion, the USA is losing it and marching to another fascist state of control.

Now,

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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:10 pm

I need to correct this statement- I would feel so sorry for my mom with today's media..., I was never home except for meals.

To- ...I would feel so sorry for my mom... "with today's media"...

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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:15 pm

No, that got fucked up too-

I need to correct this statement- I would feel so sorry for my mom, I was never home except for meals.

To- ...I would feel so sorry for my mom... "with today's media"...

Maybe we need to have an adult section of playa. Where you are asked with two choices- Press the following button, I am under eighteen or I am eighteen or over.

Now how many kids will be honest and not press the eighteen or over enter button?

Soon we won't even be able to say, Fuck! on Eplaya!

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Postby Stormy » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:45 pm

Stormy wrote:My concern is that BM org might be implying that every "adult" theme camp should have security for the sake of minors is unsettling to me.

technopatra wrote:May I ask why? I find it totally reasonable, but then I think that most adult camps already consider this, and it's good for us to remind those that don't.


I camped with an adult theme camp and by choice we had security to keep out people who were intoxicated, clueless, likely to steal, or those whom the group didn't think were cool enough to enter. I respect their choice as they worked hard to put the camp together and had lots of expensive equipment.

However, someone does have to sit at the door and play guard. Personally I'd rather be having fun than working all night. I would rather have everyone at the camp enjoying the fun instead of playing babysitter. If someone wants to take their kids to the playa, great. Let the parents be responsible for the location of their children.
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Postby Badger » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:54 pm

Soon we won't even be able to say, Fuck! on Eplaya!


Maybe start your then? Its been done with astonishing success. Trey's board being a good example.
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Postby stuart » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:03 pm

blues brothers
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:27 pm

Badger wrote:
Soon we won't even be able to say, Fuck! on Eplaya!


Maybe start your then? Its been done with astonishing success. Trey's board being a good example.


It's a good suggestion, but no, I don't want to copy trey's or compete with E, but maybe an adult section might not be a bad thing.

Stuart- No its animal house's scene in the cafeteria.

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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:35 pm

Tancorix wrote:This thread gives me the fucking creeps. Someone coming in from the outside looking at the board could see this in the subject list and get the wrong impression fast.

Bob was right, this thread needs to be deleted. It's just wrong...no matter how you rationalize it.

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Kinetic, your post is correct. The only problem is it came from Hall Moniter Bob. With that it loses all of it's volidity.
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Postby angrykittie25 » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:40 pm

Someone coming in from the outside looking at the board could see this in the subject list and get the wrong impression fast.


If this is a real concern, I think that the admin would have taken care of it already, right? If someone did get the wrong impression and took some kind of action, I think that the thread content would prove to the contrary.

As we all know I am sensitive on the kid issue and did not like the thread title, and if there were something in this thread that I thought was serious on this subject, I would definatly react, but I haven't seen anything of that nature, unless I missed something.
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Postby Isotopia » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:26 pm

The only problem is it came from Hall Moniter Bob. With that it loses all of it's volidity.


It loses validity for you. Sweeping generalizations like the above are fodder for the rest of us.

BTW, anyone else aware of discussion lists/boards where the issue is being discussed? I understand that several SoCal lists are chewing it over and trying to grok what's being said, what it means and whether or not it spells doom for the event. The latter being a jokish jab. The history of the event is full of instances in which cahnges to policy have been looked up as spelling doom for the event. Ron Jon made a very interesting observation that such changes (nor cars, no firearms, no dogs, etc.) have always had a group who saw the changes as spelling doom for the event.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:56 pm

Isotopia wrote:
The only problem is it came from Hall Moniter Bob. With that it loses all of it's volidity.


It loses validity for you. Sweeping generalizations like the above are fodder for the rest of us.


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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:17 pm

I have a degree in Music Ed.

To get some extra money when the photography business was slow, I would do some substitute teaching. I always wanted to incorporate real life situations into a serious, but a fun earning experience. Child abduction was one of them. It was a subject that I had almost experience as a child but was wise to the situation because I good friends that may have saved me one day. So, I had made this play much like a greek tragedy. All derived from that childhood experience. To teach my students. You might like to try this in your classroom or if you are a parent with your kids.

It can be applied to several class objectives:

Art and Child safety though learning early greek structures.


the greek like monotone chorus is a winner. You will need cardboard car which is fun to make. the teacher is always the villian (of course) a child is the victim and you will need one or more students for the chorus.

Of course, its very simple and good for any grades from third or so up 6th or seventh.

You write out the lines of course for the two actors and a chorus line depending on the grade level of course. But overall it would go much like this.

Child is walking down the a supposed street and a car pulls up.

Villain: Using one of Zulegoona lines or many others like:

Hi little boy (or girl), I'm lost do you know where such and such is?
(villain trys to get the boy close to the door so as to pull him into it and drive off.

(with each child using the many different lines possible- again depending on the cognitive level of the grade)

child starts to walk toward car and pauses,

(chorus chants)

Dear boy, hark! hear us faiths.
danger and death lies near,
all is doom if you ride in that chariot.
stay your distance take flight if he approaches!

child:
I am not to speak to strangers in chariots, but it would be rude of me not to help those in need.

(Two answers are possible) I no not of the place you seek please drive by and ask another, or the place you seek is two block in that direction.

Villain: Can you please come with me and show me the way and I will buy you ice cream.

(Two ending one is Tragic and the other Heroic)

Chorus: Dear child, hark! hear us faiths.
danger and death lies near,
all is doom if you ride in that chariot.
say, "Good Bye!" prepare for flight!

child: Please don't not come closer or I shall run away and screem.

(or other child gets in car and drive away so two ending of chorus.)

Heroic chorus ending: Dear child, hark! hear us faiths.
danger and death lied near,
all was doomed if you hath ride,
But you abide and so shall you live

Aplause!

Tragic Ending: Child gets in car and drives away.

Tragic Chorus: Dear child, hark! The faiths hath spoken.
danger and death is near,
Now all is doomed,
for those that ride death's chariot.

No aplause but silence.

Acting out plays work much better then just telling them to watch out for
this or that.

Give it a try!

Now for the adult sex play version!
For fun only kiddies!

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Postby Stormy » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:51 pm

technopatra wrote:
I should also note that this whole perparing for kids thing is preventative in nature. Like I said, no kids tried to enter the event I was a part of . I have not heard of this being a specific issue with anyone,


So why do we need guard dogs at the "entrance" to mature events, if it's a non-issue?


and the concern that folks have for parents not paying attention to their kids and letting them wander alone - I have not seen this happen, nor have I ever heard of this happening.


I'll be checking Ranger Logs for the number of missing children reports for a piece that I'm writing, but for the moment, I don't know how many children have been reported missing. I suspect the number of kids that haven't been reported but have spent unsupervised time away from parents is even larger.

Just last year some friends had their (9 or 10) year old child missing by himself for several hours. And I try really hard not to pay attention to children at the event because I spend so much time being responsible for children. It's funny, if I provided the level of unsupervision that most parents do, I'd lose my job.

The older kids do not need to be watched every second to be supervised, and I have only seen kids alone who are of an age that they could very well be running around alone in a regular city.


I don't know what this means. I usally define juveniles by infant, preschool, primary (5-7), intermediate (8-10), adolescent (11-13) and teenager (14-17). So, I can't comment on the above because I don't know which age group you are referring to.
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Postby TheJudge » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:02 pm

I cant speak for all camps but I do know that most security set in place is usually to reduce the typical lookie-loo, show-me-yer-tits, fratboy-with-a-digital camera type. Not that a door bouncer is a very friendly and welcoming thing to have to inflict on the unwashed masses, but without it, most really cool events would soon turn to chaos.

Let's cut the bullshit: Families go out there, so yes, semantically speaking Burning Man is a "family event." But in all honesty, to expose kids to most of the subject matter that gets displayed out there would be morally reprehensible. The event is not designed for kids and we all know it. It may have been once, but it's not anymore.
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Postby Bob » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:03 am

unjonharley wrote:....The only problem is it came from Hall Moniter Bob. With that it loses all of it's volidity.


ITYM "voracity".
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Postby Bob » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:21 am

BTW, AZ, when was the last time you attended Burning Man?

Other than in your own mind, I mean?

Are you Sumner Redstone's sock puppet, by any chance?

This has been something other than either an SF- or US-centric event for quite some time, and has never been explicitly political, though there are always some who'd like to make it so.

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Postby Calico » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:20 am

Hmmm, guess I'll speak up here. This will be my 5th burn... one of the most wonderful people I have met at BM was this girl I saw 2 yrs in a row, they happened to be her 2nd & 3rd at BM. The first year she told me she came via the Green Tortouse solo from NYC. The 2nd year I saw her there, she mentioned she was 17! She has been going to BM SOLO on the Tortouse since she was 15! I had never seen her high/drunk, nor at any event that she sould not have been attending. She is one of the most level headed, intellegent, & honest people I have met.

Now as to the very young... I feel that infants fall under the same catagory as dogs...IE the Playa is not an appropiate place for them. Moving up the age ladder... 4 to say 8 or 9, would be fine... with direct parential supervision..10 to say 14, yes, if they have proven their level of responsibility, give them pretty much free rein durring the dayend. The those 15+ whell if they have not been taught & rasied correctly & capible of knowing right from wrong.

Do I agree that the more adult camps need to police themselves.. yes this can cause extra hardship for those that have to work the gates...

I'm too damn tired to continue... maybe more L8R!

And yes, I have my own kids, Step children, and godchildren. I would be much more happy for any to see a loving sexual encounter than a Boxing match or a Hockey game. That is because I am anti violence! As to my kids handleing the environment... not a prob, my ex was very much an old style survivialist! by the time my kids were 6-7, they would have no problem finding food/shelter in the forest.

Calico

[quote="Sobretta Franjipan"][/quote]

Honestly you'd better have one heck of a comprehensive talk with your daughter before you go. And I hope she looks about 11 instead of anywhere near 17 because don't kid yourself (no pun intended) that BM is filled with hippy kindhearted strangers (yes, they are there but are a minority). There are lots of creepy, older men looking for action-and creepy women for that matter. RAMPANT drinking and drug taking abound as well. It's really an adult free for all. As much as I love kids, teens, and young people I, nor anyone else, is there to help take care of your kid. For a lot of people this is their time to let go of responsibility and explore extreme behavior. I really don't think I could have handled it as a 17 year old girl. It's an extremely adult atmosphere-think of a nudist colony, backstage at a Van Halen concert (back in the day), Timothy Leary enhanced, Swinger party, hippy commune, Mad Max, Ecstasy love-in, galloping gourmet, mad scientist convention, pervert, brilliant, hilarious Mr. Toad's Wild Ride rolled into one.

Caution!

quote]
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Postby Stormy » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:24 am

during an intermission from the fire performances, a dj was spinning and different performers were taking turns jumping up on the stage for a bit. at one point i looked up and saw a girl, probably around 10 years old, front and center on stage, belly dancing beautifully, with blinking el wire and a tattered 'fairy' skirt around her hips. she was the most lovely thing i have seen in a long long while and i felt so happy that she was there with us. her dancing was very free, very confident and self expressive. and, most importantly, she was 10!


I think this post and several others helped me to see more clearly why Burning Man can be good for kids. I also can see how the Borg decided to try and place kid camps away from mature camps as a way to appease law enforcement and help protect chidren. I wonder if it would be possible in the future to have clearly designated kid zones, even larger than Kidsville, and adult only zones. Is that too regimental? Enforcement would be community wide, if a kid enters the adult only zone, any adult could escort them back to a kid approved area. If anyone sees an adult acting inappropriately in a kid area, they should be reminded of where they are.

As for what cops will think is appropriate, wouldn't it be better on private land? Does anyone know what the status is on a new venue, or is it top secret at this point?
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Postby technopatra » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:59 am

Stormy wrote:
So why do we need guard dogs at the "entrance" to mature events, if it's a non-issue?


Lke I said, it is to prevent it from happening. Conceivaly, as the event continues to grow there is a greater likelihood of kids ending up where they shouldn't be.

Stormy wrote:
I'll be checking Ranger Logs for the number of missing children reports for a piece that I'm writing, but for the moment, I don't know how many children have been reported missing.

That would be interesting to see. Without that data, we are all just making assumptions based on what we saw/heard about as individuals. Like the 3 blind men trying to identify an elephant by touching just one part of it.

[qoute="Stormy"]
The older kids do not need to be watched every second to be supervised, and I have only seen kids alone who are of an age that they could very well be running around alone in a regular city.


I don't know what this means. I usally define juveniles by infant, preschool, primary (5-7), intermediate (8-10), adolescent (11-13) and teenager (14-17). So, I can't comment on the above because I don't know which age group you are referring to.[/quote]

Oh I meant adolescents an older, as a general grouping. Certainly the actual appropriateness of unsupervised BRC meandering depends on the individual child.

What I was inferring was that I did not personally witness instances of neglectful parenting, nor heard any such stories post-playa.
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Postby technopatra » Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:01 am

Stormy wrote:As for what cops will think is appropriate, wouldn't it be better on private land? Does anyone know what the status is on a new venue, or is it top secret at this point?


Although the idea has been explored, there are no plans to move the event, as far as I know.
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Postby Imagigrl » Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:40 am

Yeah, let's hope daddy ain't goin' just as chaparone (sp?). My man Ken is coming along this year and he's helping us with our theme camp, Gonzo's Inner Sanctum, but I'm not to devuldge too much about Burning Man around his momma because she's jumped on the "you're gonna die out there amongst all them freaks" ignorama band wagon. I figure that she'll come to understand it better once she's seen our after photos. My mom did and she was overly concerned as well. She saw an astronaut in a pic we took on burn night and was tickled pink although Burning Man will probably never be her cup o' tea... she admits that she's way too conservative. Here's to hoping your papa is a more open minded, gung ho type of gent... ooooo! Hope to pick you out of the crowd this year, Silver, that's if you're going to experience The Vault of Heaven!!! ;)
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Postby Silver 2 » Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:00 pm

Thank you my dear. I'll be there this year. Look for a tall (6"4') old guy with shoulder length silver/gray hair. That'll probably be me. I'll try to drop by Gonzo's at some point, maybe we'll run into each other.

An aside, I get this reaction from a lot of younger (20's) people (mainly girls). I am as old as their parents but I am doing the same stuff that the kids are and am not freaking out when ----- happens.
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Postby jbelson » Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:24 pm

This year I'm going with my Mom and Stepdad, little sister and her boyfriend, and me and my girlfriend. So it's gonna be a family affair for sure. I realize I probably wont see my parents too mcuh because they'll be exploring. My sister is kinda weirded out because she wants to take her clothes off, but doesn't feel comfortable in front of her dad, or me. Now were the kind of family that has already gotten high together, so the parents are kinda chill. For me, I just want to make them comfortable out there which I'm sure won't take much (They like to hunt).
But I wouldn't have asked them to come if I didn't feel they could appreciate BM. They can be very opinionated and political, but they're also home builders and have a deep appreciation for things built with hammer and imagination. Plus, I think they need to be taken out of their world for a weekend and watch their son spin fire.
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