Kids & Teenagers at Burning Man

Questions, answers, tips & tricks for newbies and veterans alike

Kids at Burning Man?

Yes
302
58%
No
219
42%
 
Total votes : 521

Postby Silver 2 » Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:10 am

unjonharley, you missed my point or I did not state it well. Part of what I was trying to get across is the large difference between safety at Burning Man and sociity in general. I was also pointing out that Burner women tend to be more self-confident than the general female population but they still hesitate to speak up when the situation requires it.

The comment on how to walk and move is a case in point, in regular classes ( last one about 8 years ago now) a good quarter of the class would need help along those lines, in the Burner community I can think of only two women who could use some pointers. How a person, male or female, walks and moves sends signals varying from 'I am a confident and powerful person' to 'I am a victim'. The closer a person's presentation is to the former the easiler their life is.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:10 am

AAAaaah?? Being a victom will make my life easier?? Or can't i read this fine mornig?
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:30 am

Silver2, While on this thread drift, I might mention one other thing. That being None of this crying wolf wolf. This is not fuuny shit. If some one dose this I will be in the line to kick there ass.

A couple of female down in diane ' thirst's country pulled that stuff last week. They pulled into a apt complex. One got out and into the trunk. Then started to beat, kicking and yelling from inside. The other one jumped into the car and sped off. People from the apt's started calling the police. They had a full alarm going in minits. It was a prank ha ha is to laugh.

This was aspecaily a bad time to do this. We have just lost another girl just up the road from there. Two weeks and they still have not found her. People from all over the country have come to help...........
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Postby Bob » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:57 am

You two would be great on late night TV talking my women this, your car trunk that, your kid this, my trailer park that. Brilliant!
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Postby Ron » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:01 am

unjonharley wrote:Silver2, While on this thread drift, I might mention one other thing. That being None of this crying wolf wolf. This is not fuuny shit. If some one dose this I will be in the line to kick there ass.


You would, huh? If it were obvious so would I. How could it not be obvious? Here's a story some friends told me from last year.

The were walking along the playa, during the day, when they say a two level art car go slowly by, cramped with partying burners. One of my friends, call him S, looked up on the second level and saw three pairs of feet, one in the middle, two on either side. From the bottom, looking up, it seemed likely to him that the feet in the middle were connected to someone who was passed out. And it was apparent that the feet on either side were focusing, and working (sexually), on the feet in the middle.

So my friends jumped on the car and started making their way towards the stairs while asking folk if they knew what was going on upstairs. "Sure we do," they said, "It's all cool..." and so on. Much discussion ensued with my friends basically being told they'd have to fight their way upstairs to check on anyone. For whatever reason they didn't push it, jumped off the car, and watched the feet drive down the playa, the middle one still laying limp, the two on either side apparently fucking the middle person, and all three surrounded by partying burners who didn't get involved.

Now who knows what was really happening? I don't, I wasn't even there. That's kind of the point. In the face of uncertainty my friends tried to get informed but were blocked. Yuck, the image has stuck with me ever since, and my friends were very much disturbed by the event. Another friend discovered an unknown, naked, masturbating, man waiting for her in her tent when she went to go to sleep one night.

Shit happens, and as a once and future instructor of self defence (women's and otherwise,) I'm a supporter of the notion of yelling for help. And of the notion of not putting our heads in the sand when the topic is our own community. Assaults, sexual and otherwise, happen on the playa and everywhere else. That's not reason to be housebound, it is reason to be aware and respectful of the conversation, IMHO...

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Postby blyslv » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:19 am

actiongrl wrote:>The ubiquitous nudity

7-10% of people is not quite ubiquitous, and actually, nudity doesn't = sexuality, and I don't want the law to try to tell me otherwise.


I agree that nude does not equal sex. I don't think the law agrees however. The combination of children and public nudity might give LEO more reasons to crack down. Since I do not have kids I will not advise parents. But I think it is inevitiable that the presence of children will require us all to engage in some self-censorship.
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Postby nipples » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:30 pm

"How do you feel about kids at BurningMan?"

They have never been so densely populace that I have had to "feel about them", for passage, etc.

Ba doomp-boomp!

Seriously though,

I had a few years ago given it some thought (is it responsible to allow children) and decided that it is not my decision to make, but the parent in charge of child, and secondarilly, the event organizers themselves.

Yes, I do reflexively wonder, when I see a tyke, if I might be in some way at that moment be misconstrued by the child as "normal" enough to emulate when maybe that is not such a good thing, and can happily report that at no time have I ever felt a child so endangered at Burningman by my actions or anyone else I have EVER seen around a child, at Burningman (5-years).

We saw the three-desk-go-cart (which Bob™ posted here earlier) go BY MY CAMP. Good for all of us!
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innocent

Postby nipples » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:37 pm

"if I might be in some way at that moment be misconstrued by the child as "normal" enough to emulate when maybe that is not such a good thing"

Hmm, as perception allows two ways to look at an event, the right way, and no other, I will attempt to pare the possibilty for error down

In this case, I did not mean that I would have to be misconstrued to be thought "normal".
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Postby Bob » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:24 pm

nipples wrote:....the event organizers themselves....


all o' the org-ans
have de facto [sic] children --
anklebiters, all
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Postby nipples » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:00 pm

Ahh...
thank you for the gentle bump
how one may herd..... cats!
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Postby randy redhed » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:08 pm

i recently received a post from the theme camp announcement list that included this statement: "We are a family
event and we need to be respectful of our youth. Additionally, the
law enforcement that has a presence at our event are particularly
concerned about this issue and may be looking for camps that are not
making efforts to respect our families and minors."
and this one:"All camps with adult activities should
plan to have a guard out front whenever necessary to keep minors from
entering. "

does anyone else have an opinion about the 'family' nature of burning man? funny, that's the <last> word i would use to describe my experiences at the four burns i've attended, and i am wondering about the motivation for such an edict from on high. there's been very little to no official discussion that i've been exposed to (such as on jack rabbit speaks), and i think censorship is something we need to discuss as a community, not just blindly accept from bmorg as the price of doing business.

anyone else out there concerned about this issue? my opinion is, you want 'family', book a trip to disneyland.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:19 pm

randy redhed wrote: <snip>
anyone else out there concerned about this issue? my opinion is, you want 'family', book a trip to disneyland.


/\
It's just the next step in "controll" of every FUCKEN thing.
The "Theys" did this shit to the Or. Country Fair. Now it is controll by
frat-boys in kaki shorts and Van-huessen shirts. With little snot pickers running under foot. Nuf to make one puke.
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Postby _tears_ » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:52 pm

randy redhed wrote:i recently received a post from the theme camp announcement list that included this statement: "We are a family
event and we need to be respectful of our youth. Additionally, the
law enforcement that has a presence at our event are particularly
concerned about this issue and may be looking for camps that are not
making efforts to respect our families and minors."
and this one:"All camps with adult activities should
plan to have a guard out front whenever necessary to keep minors from
entering. "

does anyone else have an opinion about the 'family' nature of burning man? funny, that's the <last> word i would use to describe my experiences at the four burns i've attended, and i am wondering about the motivation for such an edict from on high. there's been very little to no official discussion that i've been exposed to (such as on jack rabbit speaks), and i think censorship is something we need to discuss as a community, not just blindly accept from bmorg as the price of doing business.

anyone else out there concerned about this issue? my opinion is, you want 'family', book a trip to disneyland.


I am 17 ( last year i was 16 ) I dont LOOK like a teenager or yonger... What shall the guards do? ID everyone who wants to enter? That doesnt make any sence to me.

I personally do not have a problem with the things is saw out there, i was fully prepared and thought NOTHING of it. It is hard to say weather censorship would even work unless they want to start IDing people.

And I agree. If you want a TRUE family type "trip" please dont go to burning man. I didnt go for "family" ( i didnt even go with family ) I went to have a wild ( yet responsible ) good time.

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Postby _tears_ » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:52 pm

randy redhed wrote:i recently received a post from the theme camp announcement list that included this statement: "We are a family
event and we need to be respectful of our youth. Additionally, the
law enforcement that has a presence at our event are particularly
concerned about this issue and may be looking for camps that are not
making efforts to respect our families and minors."
and this one:"All camps with adult activities should
plan to have a guard out front whenever necessary to keep minors from
entering. "

does anyone else have an opinion about the 'family' nature of burning man? funny, that's the <last> word i would use to describe my experiences at the four burns i've attended, and i am wondering about the motivation for such an edict from on high. there's been very little to no official discussion that i've been exposed to (such as on jack rabbit speaks), and i think censorship is something we need to discuss as a community, not just blindly accept from bmorg as the price of doing business.

anyone else out there concerned about this issue? my opinion is, you want 'family', book a trip to disneyland.


I am 17 ( last year i was 16 ) I dont LOOK like a teenager or yonger... What shall the guards do? ID everyone who wants to enter? That doesnt make any sence to me.

I personally do not have a problem with the things is saw out there, i was fully prepared and thought NOTHING of it. It is hard to say weather censorship would even work unless they want to start IDing people.

And I agree. If you want a TRUE family type "trip" please dont go to burning man. I didnt go for "family" ( i didnt even go with family ) I went to have a wild ( yet responsible ) good time.

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Postby Silver 2 » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:37 am

All camps with adult activities should plan to have a guard out front whenever necessary to keep minors from entering.


A quick rant on this one. Who the hell are you people? I am not your child's parent YOU are. Either 1. trouble yourself to teach your kid to follow your rules and stay out of what you consider 'bad' places, 2. monitor them yourselves or 3. stay away. To ask others to take time out of their vacation and experience to do your job is way over the top.
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Postby simcoe » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:06 am

Wow, that note about the LEO's is exactly what I was nervous about 4 pages ago. I'll say it again, I think BM should be 18 and older because it solves the problem of adult content in one step. Of course my first preference is for parents to decide what's right for their children, but this event draws the scrutiny of the world and your decisions as a parent are, regrettably, not going to be the final word where law enforcement is concerned.

I sympathize with a parent's desire to share the "magic of Burning Man" with their children, but it's my opinion that, to children, there's very little that isn't magic. Tinfoil streamers on a stick? Magical. Fireflies? Totally magical. Escalators? Wicked magical. Save the magic of BM for the people who really need it — adults who may need a refresher course in how to live with the enthusiasm of a child, though not necessarily with the purity of a child, if you know what I'm sayin'.

And to the articulate 16- & 17-year-olds who've offered their opinions and experiences, I mean no offense and I don't mean to lump you in with the toddlers. It's just that, in the case of Burning Man, I think an age limit works more to protect the adults than to deny the teenagers. You'd get your shot at the playa in another year or two... Wouldn't you rather it not be artificially tamed when you get there?

Thanks for indulging my opinions, cheers to all!
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:12 am

[quote="Ron ...Here's a story some friends told me from last year.

The were walking along the playa, during the day, when they say a two level art car go slowly by, cramped with partying burners. One of my friends, call him S, looked up on the second level and saw three pairs of feet, one in the middle, two on either side. From the bottom, looking up, it seemed likely to him that the feet in the middle were connected to someone who was passed out. And it was apparent that the feet on either side were focusing, and working (sexually), on the feet in the middle.

So my friends jumped on the car and started making their way towards the stairs while asking folk if they knew what was going on upstairs. "Sure we do," they said, "It's all cool..." and so on. Much discussion ensued with my friends basically being told they'd have to fight their way upstairs to check on anyone. For whatever reason they didn't push it, jumped off the car, and watched the feet drive down the playa, the middle one still laying limp, the two on either side apparently fucking the middle person, and all three surrounded by partying burners who didn't get involved.

Now who knows what was really happening? I don't, I wasn't even there. That's kind of the point. In the face of uncertainty my friends tried to get informed but were blocked. Yuck, the image has stuck with me ever since, and my friends were very much disturbed by the event.
Ron[/quote]

If I was concerned with what I saw, I would have offered the car owners a choice: convince me they were not raping her (ie- let me talk to her), or I "call" the police and report a rape in progress on their art car. If I had a camera I would have taken everyone's picture to turn over to the police. I think there needs to be zero tolerance on the Playa - zero tolerance for sexual assault. Sure, this probably was "cool" (I've seen far stranger consensual situations at BM), but their attitude would be prima facia evidence to me of a "not cool" situation.
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Postby stuart » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:36 pm

What shall the guards do? ID everyone who wants to enter? That doesnt make any sence to me.


me neither, but if you are proposing BM be 'family friendly' i.e., no age limit and the LEOs are saying kids need to be protected from certain things how else do you comply? There really is no other logical conclusion. The LEOs are tightening the grip and the org has no choice but to comply.
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Postby Ivy » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:10 pm

The whole kids debate has been going around a while; there's been amassive amount of discussion in the last few days.

Regardless of where people stand on kids, it's this:

The LEOs are tightening the grip and the org has no choice but to comply.


that bothers me.

I'm sorry, Stuart, but as you have written it, that's a lie.

There IS another choice--but it's not the option most people want to pick. But as for my philosohy, it's the one I'm inclinded to side with.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:21 pm

Instead of all of us changing. Why not just make it "R" rated. Only the people it affect will eed to change. Make that "X" rated for me.
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Postby DangerMouse » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:54 pm

I have no problem with kids. I think everyone should own one and duct tape them to their seats and make them watch mommy and daddy's home videos on the LCD screen in the minivan/SUV.
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Postby theshaman » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:12 pm

We had 2 kids who camped with us. One was 3 and the other 4. The 3 year old was actually at his 4th burn and ran for Major of Black Rock City, you may have seen the "Snortle the Mole" campaign posters at center camp.

The 4 year old "Ben-jammin" was at his first burn. He had an absolute blast and did really good. The one side efect that his parents noticed is that after returning from the burn he would express frustration with a toy by saying "fucking thing!" or "son of a bitch"

They handled it with grace. While I was on the playa, he was helping me fix something (mostly playing with the tools) and absentmindedly saying to himself "where's my fucking gift? where's my fucking gift?"

Somebody had the saying on their shirt and was talking about it.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:12 pm

randy redhed wrote:does anyone else have an opinion about the 'family' nature of burning man? funny, that's the <last> word i would use to describe my experiences at the four burns i've attended, and i am wondering about the motivation for such an edict from on high. there's been very little to no official discussion that i've been exposed to (such as on jack rabbit speaks), and i think censorship is something we need to discuss as a community, not just blindly accept from bmorg as the price of doing business.

anyone else out there concerned about this issue? my opinion is, you want 'family', book a trip to disneyland.


I am not connected with the event, but I think you are on to something. IMHO, the BMllc is clearly responding to pressure from "Them" who do not like "Us". When it was just a few dirty adults, no one cared. Guns, fireworks, random cars, no roads, etc. - practically anything went. Now that BM is bigger, it attracts more attention, and more people want to stop it. One way to stop it is top say it is a non-mainstream event for morally vacant heathens (the same way marginal religions can be branded as "Cults"). Not too many people get there panties in a bunch when a pagan heathen-fest is stopped, but a "Family-friendly Art Festival" is harder to denegrate on purely subjective terms. So the organizers are "selling out" trying to maintain this tiger ride for as long as they can.

But something has to give (and it will most likely be the remaining "character" of the event in favor of "family values")

Maybe the Rainbow folks have something after all. What would happen if 29,999 individuals showed up to camp on the Playa without notice on some random weekend? Would they be able to police a spread-out gathering with no ticket sales? And no closure border?
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:54 pm

Kids were at the first burn. Larry and Jerry's little sons built a Burning Dog to burn with the Man.

This has never been touted as a private party where you can do whatever you want. Keeping sex out of public spaces is nothing new at the event - sex-oriented camps from previous years can tell you they've always received a phone call or letter from the Project about some basic standards for fitting into the civic space. We've always zoned so Kids camp wasn't neighbors with NoNo the Naughty Monkey, or what have you. It's just becoming more visible.

I don't want to go to a Burning Man that's an 18 and up event. Like the kids say at another campout I enjoy, "This is a sexy party, not a sex party."
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Postby _tears_ » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:08 pm

simcoe wrote:Wow, that note about the LEO's is exactly what I was nervous about 4 pages ago. I'll say it again, I think BM should be 18 and older because it solves the problem of adult content in one step. Of course my first preference is for parents to decide what's right for their children, but this event draws the scrutiny of the world and your decisions as a parent are, regrettably, not going to be the final word where law enforcement is concerned.

I sympathize with a parent's desire to share the "magic of Burning Man" with their children, but it's my opinion that, to children, there's very little that isn't magic. Tinfoil streamers on a stick? Magical. Fireflies? Totally magical. Escalators? Wicked magical. Save the magic of BM for the people who really need it — adults who may need a refresher course in how to live with the enthusiasm of a child, though not necessarily with the purity of a child, if you know what I'm sayin'.

And to the articulate 16- & 17-year-olds who've offered their opinions and experiences, I mean no offense and I don't mean to lump you in with the toddlers. It's just that, in the case of Burning Man, I think an age limit works more to protect the adults than to deny the teenagers. You'd get your shot at the playa in another year or two... Wouldn't you rather it not be artificially tamed when you get there?

Thanks for indulging my opinions, cheers to all!


I actually agree with the age limit. Although it would mean i wouldnt be able to attend, but what is one more year?

I know i personally do my best to stay out of sexual situations at the event that could jeopardy Burning Man if something was said. Even though it is nothing i havent done before, I still dont get involved. I go to BDSM munchs at private homes here in the real world, so it isnt much of a big deal for me to take a break for it.

I just STRONGLY push ANY minors to RESPECT the event and be RESPONSIBLE

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Postby DVD Burner » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:14 pm

I myself like the younguns. Not for sexual reasons, even though some are rather great looking, but for the most part....they bring some great energy and new ideas. Not their fault. It's the way of burningman. New ideas, inovation and new energy has always been the way of Burningman. what to do about it really. How ya gonna do that without young people and ideas? :shock:

We need them.



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Postby Badger » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:15 pm

NoNo the Naughty Monkey,


Jesus, now there's someone who'll put John Ashcroft in a low Earth orbit.
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kids at the burn

Postby randy redhed » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:54 pm

actiongrl, that's all well and good. i'm sure larry harvey would be the first to tell you the parents have to be responsible for their kids' experience. but i have two problems with the way this whole thing is going down:
one, who is going to decide what is 'adult'? you? me? the washoe county sheriffs dept? the blm? where and how do you draw the line? and how is it going to be enforced?
two, why hasn't this topic been the subject of a major town hall meeting? especially if we are concerned with the feds busting up the party? i see no reason why bmorg should suddenly abandon a central founding principle ('radical self-expression') without alot of public discussion first. i totally felt blindsided by the posting by the theme camp announcement list, as if it's already been decided and you just have to put up with it.
this has caused alot of concern out there in burner land, and many of us feel betrayed. if this is the direction the powers that be are going to take, what issue will be decided for us next?
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Postby safetythird » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:03 pm

Speaking as a parent (I have 2, my partner has 3) of kids ranging from 9 to 16 I would definately NOT take my kids to BM, especially since we're virgins ourselves. It's not because of the sex/drugs/whatever at BM. It's because we don't want them to see us indulging in those things while at BM. I guess you could call us closet freaks.

We have a place in Rosarito, MX that we go to frequently. We plan Family trips and we plan Adult trips. We pack the appropriate behavior for both.

If someone else wants to bring their children I say "Go for it". It's really up to the parents to decide what thier kids are ready for. IF it becomes a problem (ie the toning down of the event for the sake of the children) then I'd have to back the "No Kids" movement.

I think we have an overly protective society when it comes to kids anyways. Shit, all you have to do is say "it's for the children" and people will have to agree with you. Who's going to be FOR something that might harm children? I remember riding in the bed of my dad's pickup many times and survived it. If I were to allow my children to ride in the back of a truck I'm sure I'd be hearing from Child Protective Services or some organization like that. Yeah, and my parents used to smoke cigarettes around me all the time, in the car, the house, anywhere. Those bastards! Didn't they know second hand smoke will kill children on contact? Somehow I survived.

Don't get me wrong, I love kids. I own a couple and sometimes they're even useful. With all the crap on TV nowadays I don't think it would be all that easy to shock today's teens. Maybe the BM experience would be good for them, but that's a decision for their parents and their parents alone.

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Postby stuart » Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:13 pm

Ivy

do tell.

My feeling is that first they need make the choice about kids or no kids
clearly that choice was made a long time ago
so, if they choose kids and the LEO says if kids are there they must do x,y,z then I guess they have the choice not to comply but I would worry about the consequences. But I worry about the consequences of compliance as well.

what path do you suggest?
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