NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby SageV » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:26 pm

I just want to say that cutting hard to replace cables that would inevitably disable the entire vehicle's sound system is, of course, a completely unacceptable form of retribution despite how popular a decision it might be or how welcome by the community. Please don't cut hard to replace cabling to completely disable a rogue MV's sound system, despite its complete effectiveness at curbing a huge annoyance. Try something more positive and creative...like an interpretative dance.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby oneeyeddick » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:52 pm

fire works pretty good too
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby lemur » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:54 pm

where are people suggesting destroying property to stop sound problems?


edit: oh duh.. maybe you are.. REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY?!?! sheesh.. i shoulda known
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Trishntek » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:14 pm

In 2010 we were directly across from the Gypsy Ghetto Bus with their 10s of thousands of watts of powerful music machine. They sat parked in their camp for hours shaking our teeth apart. We could not even have conversations with each other for hours on end. And this would go on into the wee hours of the morning.

The Rangers visited them multiple times and by Thursday, they were out and about more often and kept it relatively low volume when they were parked.

I'm glad to see this issue being addressed. It's one thing to blast ear drums on the deep playa,,, a completely different situation in the middle of BRC. Bad manners can run wild sometimes,,,, jus' sayin' common sense and courtesy SHOULD rule, but seems a stranger to some.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby some seeing eye » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:01 pm

Bravo for the new DMV sound system guidelines. I have some suggestions for future updates based on my experiences as a sound engineer. After some field measurements this year, you may want to lower the allowed measured levels. And you will have he data to do it.

A comfortable listening level is 80-85 dBA. That is what I've measured with a calibrated meter.

The level 3 levels are much too high. Although the open playa is large, there is no compelling reason for a system so loud that is forces it's audience further than 100 feet from the speakers just to achieve a comfortable listening level. Note your level 3 guideline results in 124 dbA at 6 feet. It's 88 dBA at 400 feet! A level 3 sound system parked at 2:00 facing the deepest point of the trash fence will be heard at 63 dBA - louder than a conversation at 3 feet.

Even the level 1 limits result in 109 dBA at 6 feet.

Occupational safety limits start to kick in at 85-90 dBA.

Suggest equipping select rangers with sound level meters to log sound levels across the playa and in the city to produce a baseline. Also suggest requiring sound camps and MV's with larger sound systems to carry a sound level meter. A meter is the only objective way to measure sound levels. An inexpensive sound level meter is $20 to maybe $100, and they have plenty of uses at home. Rangers with sound level meters would also be the basis for in city expectations based of dB rather than Watts.

A longstanding BM cultural value is building bigger. And bigger. If attendees were able to field a 2MW portable nuclear reactor on tank treads to power their sound system, they probably would. DJ's are notorious for misjudging sound levels and crapping on the limiter if you are smart enough to have one in your drive rack. And it's the audience who suffers. So we're counting on DMV to inject some rationality. And by the way, snuggling at a a deep playa art installation under the moon and stars, without a dance party assault has its benefits.

(we now return to our regular programming)
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Galaxo Magic » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:31 pm

lemur wrote:i was injured by sound in 2007 at a big music festival.. before it happened It all seemed OK to me.. I was fine..it didnt seem too loud.. then all of the sudden I wasnt fine.. my right ear suffered a rupture and it was not pleasant at all.. getting out of the crowd wasnt nearly as easy as youd imagine because everyone wants to push towards the front.. I felt I was at a reasonable distance.. easily over 100 feet from the source of sound..

After that my right ear is more sensitive to loud noise than my left..it took about 2 months to heal up and for the nearly constant pain to go away..

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BRING EAR PLUGS AND WEAR THEM SO YOU CAN KEEP ON LISTENING TO MUSIC

lemur, I feel for you. I had a similar experience. I now have a constant whistling in both ears and I am sensitive to loud noises.

I always carry around some ear plugs on the playa. If I want to dance at a rave, I have to put those in. And I sleep with them at night.

Our Mutant Vehicle always turns off the music when entering the city. We have neighbors. We love them, they love us. Respect is a two-way sound system...
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Re: New BRC Vehicle Sound Policy

Postby Galaxo Magic » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:41 pm

lemur wrote:Image

I dont recall anyone mentioning having a good time near THAT thing.. and it seems to only be memorable for how annoying it was..

That stick thing did not bother us at all when it was out by the trash fence but on Burn Night it was a few hundred feet away BLASTING DnB. It was annoying to our whole group, as soon as the Man dropped we had to leave that area. That's the way I have dealt with it for 11 years, leave, of course, I remember the days those vehicles would roam the city at 4 in the morning. Thank goodness that doesn't happen any more. Frack, I sound old......
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby SageV » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:17 pm

Trishntek wrote:In 2010 we were directly across from the Gypsy Ghetto Bus with their 10s of thousands of watts of powerful music machine. They sat parked in their camp for hours shaking our teeth apart. We could not even have conversations with each other for hours on end. And this would go on into the wee hours of the morning.


*snip* *snip*
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby lemur » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:35 pm

snip snip ? no that aint nice.. (and maybe illegal)

burning man is a gift economy, surely there is something we could give them.....

many of these groups talk about the 'bass community' and enjoying the bass..

well.. i suggest that maybe it would be a kind gift to give them some, of course, in good fun and all.


Image
sorry when i left home 7 days ago i didnt realize the cooler didnt have any ice in it.. i figured you might want the bass anyways

(i do not support or condone such gifts.. i hate bass.. and fish, too)
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Bob » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:54 am

I don't think you people *get* Burning Man, it's all about the love, mkay?
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Re: New BRC Vehicle Sound Policy

Postby EspressoDude » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:39 am

zerzura wrote:Actually, it was done as a request to give some breathing room to the large art pieces and the rest of the playa. A lot of the large art pieces were being used as very large party backdrops, sometimes with competing sound systems. A number of the artists complained they couldn't even work at their piece without having industrial cans on, and even then it made it really miserable.

As this policy is a response to a number of disparate group's requests over the last few years, I doubt it will be "looked over" at all.

Really, under 100db at 100ft to be in deep playa and not have to go to 2 or 10 O'Clock is very loud, I think both Dancetronauts and Space Cowboys are under 100db at 100ft.


Last year when setting up the pyrotechnics for the Trojan Horse burn, it eventually became impossible to communicate verbally because of the MV sound issue. Yelling in a co-workers ear was not adequate. We eventually used hand written notes to pass back and forth. The MV sounds are not only annoying but can result in dangerous situations, injuries, and banning of either the MV sound or the big display fireworks that are part of most major display burns such as the Trojan Horse, Flaming Lotus Girls, or the Man itself.
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Re: New BRC Vehicle Sound Policy

Postby ygmir » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:56 am

EspressoDude wrote:
zerzura wrote:Actually, it was done as a request to give some breathing room to the large art pieces and the rest of the playa. A lot of the large art pieces were being used as very large party backdrops, sometimes with competing sound systems. A number of the artists complained they couldn't even work at their piece without having industrial cans on, and even then it made it really miserable.

As this policy is a response to a number of disparate group's requests over the last few years, I doubt it will be "looked over" at all.

Really, under 100db at 100ft to be in deep playa and not have to go to 2 or 10 O'Clock is very loud, I think both Dancetronauts and Space Cowboys are under 100db at 100ft.


Last year when setting up the pyrotechnics for the Trojan Horse burn, it eventually became impossible to communicate verbally because of the MV sound issue. Yelling in a co-workers ear was not adequate. We eventually used hand written notes to pass back and forth. The MV sounds are not only annoying but can result in dangerous situations, injuries, and banning of either the MV sound or the big display fireworks that are part of most major display burns such as the Trojan Horse, Flaming Lotus Girls, or the Man itself.


I would submit, many (not all) of the big MV sound/dance cars, are manned by egotistical elite narcissists, who's revel in forcing their music on others, and the power it gives them, to disrupt others activities. They want to be elite, and only let certain people on, and love to watch the reactions of those they are bothering with their high decibel intrusions, as they laugh and dance.
And, then retort "hey man, it's Burning Man, it's all good"..............
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:11 am

lemur wrote:snip snip ? no that aint nice.. (and maybe illegal)

burning man is a gift economy, surely there is something we could give them.....

many of these groups talk about the 'bass community' and enjoying the bass..

well.. i suggest that maybe it would be a kind gift to give them some, of course, in good fun and all.


Image
sorry when i left home 7 days ago i didnt realize the cooler didnt have any ice in it.. i figured you might want the bass anyways

(i do not support or condone such gifts.. i hate bass.. and fish, too)

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Re: New BRC Vehicle Sound Policy

Postby chiefdanfox » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:50 pm

EspressoDude wrote:Last year when setting up the pyrotechnics for the Trojan Horse burn, it eventually became impossible to communicate verbally because of the MV sound issue. Yelling in a co-workers ear was not adequate. We eventually used hand written notes to pass back and forth. The MV sounds are not only annoying but can result in dangerous situations, injuries, and banning of either the MV sound or the big display fireworks that are part of most major display burns such as the Trojan Horse, Flaming Lotus Girls, or the Man itself.


I think the way to address that, (and yes it was really hard to prep the horse because of the noise), would be to coordinate with the Artery and a crew of Rangers to support the prep crews, make a secured perimeter, and educate the MV folks about the issue. It might also be a good idea to issue the advisory with the DMV permit. I think most of the MV operators would respect the perimeter during those times. If they don't, then perhaps they lose the use of their vehicle until after the prep is finished.

As you know, we were really short on help during the prep, regarding the perimeter. The yellow tape stopped about zero folks from entering, and that one big dune buggy pulled right up to the platform with "Sweet Home Alabama" blasting. I know that pissed a lot of folks off, but it was sort of a "Benny Hill meets Dukes of Hazzard" moment.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:53 pm

Espresso - the story you related would make a good note to the DMV and the Artery, with a note to alert the Safety Committee. Sure you can find the emails. My post was sent and I received a nice reply. Wouldn't expect BMORG to really read eplaya.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Dustdevil » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:32 pm

The DMV is well aware of the situation with the MV that broke through the perimeter of the Trojan Horse. It made a deliberate attempt to hit one of my perimeter people. This was one of many abuses from that vehicle during the week. I was loading pyro in the head of the Horse when I heard all the noise, but I came out in time to chase down the vehicle and get the license number. Let's just say I will be very disappointed if they get an invite this year. VERY VERY disappointed.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Galaxo Magic » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:48 pm

From 2001 to 2006 I worked a party barge. I used to get annoyed at how loud they played the music. Last year when we decided to build our MV we knew we wanted 'background level' music only. I wanted the folks on the elephant to be able to talk to each other in a normal voice. It was so much nicer. That stick truck had no room for people, it only had ONE purpose....I am guessing that it made up for other inadequacies.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby JRoyale » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:01 pm

lemur wrote:with a policy on the books there is more accountability

there are easily more than 100 people who are either directly involved in on-playa DMV volunteering, or off-playa DMV volunteering.. there are also hundreds of people who, while not volunteers, are just interested people (like fellows in the MV community, which is huge) ..also rangers.. on duty and off.... all of these people, and other citizens, have an interest in keeping the level of respect these mutant vehicles show for their fellow citizens high..

The MV Vehicle ID# can be jotted down easily.. and ya know, i think DMV will be pretty interested in knowing how these vehicles operate out there... especially this year, with a new policy

these same interested parties and volunteers also are citizens of BRC as well and may likely be interested in dancing along with everyone else.. and id imagine that you can be sure the playa art artists will be made aware of this policy

while it is true that they might not be able to do anything on the playa itself, because of the shear numbers/size/whatever reasons.. dont think that the eyewitness accounts, stories and vehicle numbers/descriptions are ignored by the DMV when they are passed on to them post event (or during it).. and people do pass these kinds of reports in..

mutant vehicles are the DMVs thing... they are interested in this.. if enough people report accurate and sensible accounts of abuses of sound, there will now be a set of guidelines that the DMV can use to hold the people accountable

they might not be able to hold them accountable on playa, for whatever/many reasons.. but i think that the info would probably be of interest to them when considering next years event

(this is all just my own personal opinion and conjecture based upon my reading of this announcement.. i have had no role in creating it.. or enforcing it.. in full disclosure I have volunteered off-playa for the DMV.. i am not a DMV representative, i dont speak for the DMV or their policies in any official capacity. my conjecture and opinion could be different from the way these policies are implemented and how they are perceived and intended by the DMV)


Yes, the DMV is very interested in reports of vehicles violating this policy.

As are the Rangers/Intercept. This year people should expect repeat offended to have their MV licenses revoked.

Reports of vehicle abusing this policy should go to the Ranger during the event. If you want to report something after the event, send an email to dmv@burningman.com Please include the MV license number (if possible.)

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby JRoyale » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:06 pm

some seeing eye wrote:Espresso - the story you related would make a good note to the DMV and the Artery, with a note to alert the Safety Committee. Sure you can find the emails. My post was sent and I received a nice reply. Wouldn't expect BMORG to really read eplaya.


Some of us do. :D

Still, I'd prefer to have notes, comments, reports, etc sent to dmv@burningman.com

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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby some seeing eye » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:42 pm

+1 JR, Espresso, DustDevil. Thx!

Eplayans can find plenty of online sources for the dB levels of common environments, from the quietest rooms to jet engines. An awesome experience is being in an anechoic chamber, soundproof and sound absorbing. Soft snow is also sound absorbing.

In a free sound field, like outdoors, doubling the distance reduces the level by 6dB and halving it increases the level by 6. So a change of 6 is half or twice as loud. There are free sound level meter apps for smartphones, not calibrated or with a proper microphone, but still useful.

I have really enjoyed the conversations on art cars, only possible at non-club levels.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby EspressoDude » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:12 pm

In another conversation with Dust Devil, the car in question was reported to DMV using an internal org thing called page maker, or file maker. My understanding is that if the same vehicle registers with a different owner/driver, then there is no carryover year to year..

My earlier comment regarding the noise was in the hour or so prior to the burn, and a 300 ft radius perimeter had been established and maintained. The MV's sound level I am referencing were from MV's located outside this perimeter. At 300 feet conversation was impossible.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Dustdevil » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:43 pm

Filemake will let us track both the artist and the MV on an ongoing basis.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby ygmir » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:14 pm

what would the ruling be, if a big sound MV, darted in front of a fire truck, just as testing began on the water cannon?
Does water hurt speakers and such?
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Galaxo Magic » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:29 pm

ygmir wrote:what would the ruling be, if a big sound MV, darted in front of a fire truck, just as testing began on the water cannon?
Does water hurt speakers and such?

I would rule that the problem had been solved. :)
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Gizmo » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:30 pm

Murphy's Burner Law. The assholes with the biggest sound systems will always have the shittiest music.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:37 pm

Gizmo wrote:Murphy's Burner Law. The assholes with the biggest sound systems will always have the shittiest music.


when has the person with the huge bass system in their car vibrating the door panels off EVER been listening to good music ?


im still waiting on that one heh.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby zerzura » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:13 pm

some seeing eye wrote:A comfortable listening level is 80-85 dBA. That is what I've measured with a calibrated meter.

The level 3 levels are much too high. Although the open playa is large, there is no compelling reason for a system so loud that is forces it's audience further than 100 feet from the speakers just to achieve a comfortable listening level. Note your level 3 guideline results in 124 dbA at 6 feet. It's 88 dBA at 400 feet! A level 3 sound system parked at 2:00 facing the deepest point of the trash fence will be heard at 63 dBA - louder than a conversation at 3 feet.

Even the level 1 limits result in 109 dBA at 6 feet.

Occupational safety limits start to kick in at 85-90 dBA.


I agree, the levels are still very loud, especially when you consider that 110db is the threshold for hearing pain. But because they are loud, they allow plenty of room for these vehicles to still have kick-a$$ sound systems and parties and yet get the overall level of the "open" playa and around the art installations down a bit. It is to the point where you cannot "just walk away" even with earplugs on to escape and they sound systems are creating hearing damage (and communication problems) for those who are stuck at the art project or whatever.

Really, I wish people who run these systems would take just a little time with a SPL meter, turn their systems on, and measure before they start screaming about the new regulations. I think they would realize they will have a HUGE amount of level. And if they want more, they can go 100 ft away from the trash fence and point the speakers into the no-man's land. Or they can go to 2 or 10 o'Clock and turn it up to "12" there.

As someone who works in the sound industry as well; quite frankly, if you need more power than the 100db at 100 FEET away for your system to sound kick a$$ - your system is not very good. I have been at a number of dance events, including on the playa at other times of the year, that had a huge crowd of revelers, the music sounded AWESOME, and 100 ft away you could have a slightly elevated conversation. Man, that was good sound.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Savannah » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:09 pm

I'm glad and relieved (and surprised) to see mutant vehicle sound levels being addressed. I love all kinds of music, I like it cranked, and I love to dance to it, but I'll never forget the party bus that came down E street in 2008 and played their music at top volume at 6:00 or 7:00am, out of sheer cruelty. They had no illusions about bringing the party to anyone; it was sheer sadism (and overwhelming, even through silicone plugs). No one was dancing, but people were yelling at them to go away. And they stayed and stayed, daring someone to do something about it, before moving on in 15 minutes or so, by the time anyone could've gotten a Ranger.

There is every difference between attracting people; getting them to flock to you, which--if you are awesome--will not be a problem, and forcing your "gifts" on unwilling people, like a creepy flasher on a subway.
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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby AntiM » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:00 am

Savannah wrote:There is every difference between attracting people; getting them to flock to you, which--if you are awesome--will not be a problem, and forcing your "gifts" on unwilling people, like a creepy flasher on a subway.



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Re: NEW Sound Policy for Mutant Vehicles

Postby Honey Bucket » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:32 am

Last Year I found that the serious or more professional Playa MV's, those to the likes of; Robot Heart, Dancetronauts and Heart Deco are the responsible contributors that makes venturing out to open Playa quite awesome. But what I saw/heard last year, unlike years before are the jerks that think blaring the worst techno they could find off their utterly boring box of a vehicle--up and down residential streets at all hours of the day, like they thought someone might actually think of them as cool. They were not. They were the worst, most unkind and unfair distraction to the BM experience that I can think of--ever and the DMV has every right to impose restrictions if they should have to.

So, In other words; Jerks will be jerks and there's no accounting for taste. Lets just hope that this year there will be far less of it. THANK YOU DMV
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