BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby delle » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:12 am

Maybe they should announce that they'll be available at the gate....

and a video team could record the resulting mayhem.


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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby Rice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:53 pm

delle wrote:Maybe they should announce that they'll be available at the gate....

and a video team could record the resulting mayhem.


There. My Evil Thought Of The Day is DONE, and now I can get on with my day in peace.


That is how rumors start.... {stern look} Being at the gate, on the gate road, or any where near Black Rock City without a ticket is trespassing. Which would get one a federal ticket and a decent chance of something showing up on their record. (AKA - not paying the ticket will get you a federal arrest warrant and all the "perks" therein). So DON'T DO IT!

Just because BLM has a slightly more reasonable population cap does not mean that it will translate into more tickets. So far, I have not even heard rumors that this could happen. At least nothing from any real source..
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby Just_Joe » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:01 pm

stretch80 wrote:Just because BLM has a slightly more reasonable population cap does not mean that it will translate into more tickets. So far, I have not even heard rumors that this could happen. At least nothing from any real source..

Hot off the JRS--- "As we've sold close to 58,000 tickets to date, that leaves us with a little breathing room. We're expecting some additional tickets to become available and will have more information next week. Stay tuned! "

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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby vargaso » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:18 pm

weather man wrote:
stretch80 wrote:Just because BLM has a slightly more reasonable population cap does not mean that it will translate into more tickets. So far, I have not even heard rumors that this could happen. At least nothing from any real source..

Hot off the JRS--- "As we've sold close to 58,000 tickets to date, that leaves us with a little breathing room. We're expecting some additional tickets to become available and will have more information next week. Stay tuned! "

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You beat me to it. Let's hope those additional tickets go into STEP.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:31 pm

Yay! I was very assholier-than-thou (to borrow a phrase from wh..sh) about the possibility of more tickets, back when that story came out. I was sure there wouldn't be any. Happy to have been wrong! I'll sit and eat words with VK. :D
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby Rice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:14 pm

Woops. Didn't read my email before opening my mouth.

Alright, official hints, generating rumors of the possibility of tickets.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby pwornama » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:28 pm

Please Help STEP:

I verbally supported the 10,000 tickets through e-mails and tweets going to the Theme Camps, it only made sense. I believe many of the people in STEP feel the same way. I beg you to return the favor, please show your support of any released tickets going to STEP first. The holy timestamp needs to be called for all of the STEP children. Thank you for reading and for the support you can provide.

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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby delle » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:24 pm

stretch80 wrote:
That is how rumors start.... {stern look}


Sorry. Seemed ridiculous enough a suggestion as to be laughable at the time.

Your response got me to wondering tho how last year went down. Being the first sell-out year, and with so many not on Eplaya or the JRS list, just presuming it was like every other year...

I've always wondered what kind of impact you felt at gate, and just how many unhappy turns there ended up being.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby lemur » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:37 pm

if they release more tickets......why STEP?

i know for many.. who are looking for a STEP ticket themselves... or people like me with some friends hoping for one it seems like the obvious choice.. but .. uhh if they do release more tickets....why STEP? ..i also know some folks who didnt get in to the STEP queue who are looking to get a ticket.. i want to see em!

of course at this point anyone who didnt get access to anything that were to be released would be pretty butthurt

lots of people didnt make it in to STEP.....

if they release tickets would putting them in to STEP be 'changing the rules' ..something a lot of people were against early on in this process.. considering that it was intended to be a burner to burner exchange program..?

i wonder if clearing out the STEP queue would effectively be an early end of the STEP program.. if the powers that be determine that re-opening it wouldnt be wise... (consider that tickets that arent will-call or international are being shipped out soon.. thus taking away a big chunk of the tickets that could be resold in to STEP if the queue were reopened after being cleared) ...this might leave burners who intended to sell back in to STEP needing to rely on face to face/thirdparty sales (and the possibility of the dreaded scalping that nobody wants) as they may have no official means to sell them back in to the community.....depending on where the person is (i.e. international people) ..they might not have an easy means to resell the ticket locally.. ..thus possibly there could be folks stuck with a ticket ?..

it certainly cannot be an easy thing to decide..whether they can release more, and if can how to do it... lots of folks round these parts tend toward STEP but to me thats not really a no brainer without any consequences ..itd be nice to see my friends who are waiting for tickets in STEP ........... itd also be nice to see the ones who werent in STEP... itd be even better to see them both!

the idea of pushing as high up toward that limit as they can go.. while on probation from exceeding it in 2011.. doesnt seem like a good idea all around for the LLC/Burning Man to make....exceeding the limit is surely is a big consequence, ..even beyond upsetting those who wouldnt get a ticket

those 2000 spots on an attendee limit of 60900 are probably a real troublesome issue for the LLC to deal with! ...glad its not my choice
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby VultureChow » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:56 pm

I think you could still use STEP as the platform but expand the pool of people allowed in.

Give say, a one week window during which people who weren't in the initial lottery could register for Step. Scrub the list as they did for the lottery. If you have tickets through Step, or Lottery or Presale, you are rejected. Then have the new queue entry date.

Then process through the queue. Those already in it will get first shot, and I'm guessing we're down to 500 or less by now. Then the rest goes through.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby BBadger » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:17 pm

I'm surprised they didn't just allow general signup access for STEP after the initial lottery-losers sign-up period anyway. People would wind up at the end of the line so it wouldn't have negatively impacted initial lottery folk, and the LLC could release whatever "spare" tickets there are into STEP as needed without any fiasco.

I suppose it was to prevent people who got tickets already from trying to get another set via STEP. Maybe next year they'll have better metrics to gauge how long the line is and whether it'll have much impact on scalping.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:38 am

VultureChow wrote:I think you could still use STEP as the platform but expand the pool of people allowed in. Give say, a one week window during which people who weren't in the initial lottery could register for Step.


BBadger wrote:I'm surprised they didn't just allow general signup access for STEP after the initial lottery-losers sign-up period anyway.


Wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but aren't there tonnes of lottery losers who didn't get into STEP? They only let in 2000 people, right? Weren't there 80,000 people who lost in the lottery? So are you saying they should open STEP up to the rermaining lottery losers and non-lottery-entrants, or just to the latter?
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby VultureChow » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:38 am

catinthefunnyhat wrote:
VultureChow wrote:I think you could still use STEP as the platform but expand the pool of people allowed in. Give say, a one week window during which people who weren't in the initial lottery could register for Step.


BBadger wrote:I'm surprised they didn't just allow general signup access for STEP after the initial lottery-losers sign-up period anyway.


Wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but aren't there tonnes of lottery losers who didn't get into STEP? They only let in 2000 people, right? Weren't there 80,000 people who lost in the lottery? So are you saying they should open STEP up to the rermaining lottery losers and non-lottery-entrants, or just to the latter?


Both.

There were a ton of people who for various reasons did not or were not able to participate in the lottery.They were counting on the open sale which was eventually canceled. Opening a window for them to be eligible for step would be nice. They'd still have to jostle with lottery steppers when the queue is reopened. And it is a queue, so those already in the queue are taken care of first.

My libertarian instinct is to say fuckit. If you had your shit together for the lottery you deserve a better chance at one now.

My liberal instinct is to help those for whom the rules were changed after they had made their decision and were screwed.

I'm leaning liberal in this case.

At this point most of the fallout has happened. People are finding tickets or making other plans. Those who didn't make it into Step had little hope of it being reopened. This method has the best possibility of getting tickets to those who really want it and are planning.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby pwornama » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:57 am

Why STEP?

I say use STEP because this is the ONLY group that has had hope of getting a ticket through an LLC means. STEP is the process setup to distribute/redistribute tickets by the LLC. There already is a process in place to open it back up, per the STEP FAQ's, if need be. Everyone else that did not get into STEP has either been trying other means or given up on the year. STEP people are watching, half-packing and arguing about seconds because they have a glimpse of hope.

I, maybe unfairly from the side lines, believe it would have been a much harder decision to tell everyone that, quote: "We're expecting some additional tickets to become available and will have more information next week. Stay tuned!," than how to distribute these tickets. Of course, we will all stay tuned and I will keep advocating the use of STEP to release these tickets.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby BBadger » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:43 pm

catinthefunnyhat wrote:Wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but aren't there tonnes of lottery losers who didn't get into STEP? They only let in 2000 people, right? Weren't there 80,000 people who lost in the lottery? So are you saying they should open STEP up to the rermaining lottery losers and non-lottery-entrants, or just to the latter?


I don't recall any limits on the number of people who could sign up for STEP. The only condition was that you had to have been in the lottery and lost. The ORG even instructed you to contact them if you did not receive the invitation email. That lottery losers did not sign up for STEP was a conscious decision or stupid mistake--not a structural or procedural limitation.

Plus there is no evidence of epic whining on this forum that people didn't receive a chance to sign up (except for some whiny dumbasses pretending the universe is against them). I'd take that is solid proof that there were no limits because eplaya is a honeypot for whiners, beggars, and first-post-ever, one-man geniuses.

If people didn't sign up it was probably because they thought it was a lost cause and didn't bother. Remember all those people bitching and complaining about STEP before it even came up? That's their loss. GOOD RIDDANCE. The remaining lottery losers can be treated as open-STEPpers--i.e. first come first served to the general public--as they gave up their exclusive rights when they didn't sign up for STEP in the first run.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby lemur » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:01 pm

while no explicit limits were known until after the signups for step..

there was this from the official PR:

Our ticket team will closely monitor the queue, and if/when the queue grows
large beyond the reasonable likelihood for people at the end to get
tickets, we'll pause it until we determine it becomes viable again. It
isn’t helpful or fair to have a lot of people waiting with no hope of
getting a ticket.


we now know that the queue was closed at 2000 and as far as im aware.. hasnt been reopened..

everyone who lost the lottery were allowed to sign up... thats a lot of people! id imagine 5-10x more folks than who made it in to STEP were eligible to be in it.. lots of folks were vying for those spots.. and lots of folks were upset when they didnt get in and after the signup website 'crashed'
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby pink » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:11 pm

A lot of those people have secured tix already through the directed tickets or from burners or made other plans. And of those 80,000, there were the people who gamed the system. I don't think there are 80,000 left from the lottery without tickets.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby BBadger » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:15 pm

Hmm... interesting, I did not read about that part of STEP.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby lemur » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:22 pm

oh wait. i guess i was wrong.

there apparently was some info before the signup that it was to be limited at 2000... (and may be opened at another day) ..this was apparently sent to as an email to folks on the STEP-announce list the day of the opening of the window to register:

Today at noon PST the WANT list for the Secure Ticket Exchange Program (STEP) opens. We have in the past few days seen some tickets posted for sale in the HAVE category. However, as we all know the demand for tickets for Burning Man 2012 has been significantly higher than our supply.

This means that the HAVE list will never satisfy the WANT list. Additionally, we want everyone to remember that the STEP program is not intended as dependable flow of ticket availability it is designed as a secure, hassle-free resale option. We want STEP to be effective in that regard.

Rather than allow an unlimited queue of WANT to form without any reasonable chance of an equally high number of HAVE tickets entering the system we will need to pause the sign ups when the WANT list reaches 2000.

We will reopen the list periodically as a few hundred tickets are sold. This will happen on a revolving basis contingent upon the flow and rate of exchanges that transpire.


source: http://burners.me/2012/03/02/breaking-n ... 7-minutes/

a part of the same bit was mentioned elsewhere.. it seems legit



edit: epic whining here:

BBadger wrote:Plus there is no evidence of epic whining on this forum that people didn't receive a chance to sign up (except for some whiny dumbasses pretending the universe is against them). I'd take that is solid proof that there were no limits because eplaya is a honeypot for whiners, beggars, and first-post-ever, one-man geniuses.



viewtopic.php?f=290&t=54579 "STEP has launched... but server crashed immediately"

edit:

anyways!!

this signup problem/small limit comes to mind when people say that putting additional tickets if they are available in to STEP would be the more 'fair' thing to do and because people waited patiently.... gettin in to STEP itself was a bit of a clusterfuck in terms of if you were able to do-so ..a lot of people didnt feel that it was fair then..with the site getting hammered and people who showed up on time not able to get in..

it seems like if more tickets are released it might be EASIEST to put them in to STEP....... but fairest? hmm, im not so sure... i dont think there is really a fair way to distribute any extra tickets that might become available at this point
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby VultureChow » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:57 pm

lemur wrote:i dont think there is really a fair way to distribute any extra tickets that might become available at this point


Nothing will please everyone, but let's look at the options.

1) Release no extra tickets. Pros: Great BLM buffer. Cons: They already announced more tickets going out. One more false hope in this ticketing quagmire might actually cause mental illness.

2) Directed distribution. Pros: Tickets go to (theoretically) the most important contributors. Cons: Cronyism. And lets face it, going by the list of art and Theme Camps already registered, I'd say that the event will be action packed and awesome already.

3)STEP(as originally intended). Pros:Mechanism already in place, non-transferable eliminates scalpers. Cons: Only Lottery participants allowed. Open salers miss out.

4)STEP(Allow new, non-lottery entries) Pros: Same as above plus open salers included. Cons: Lottery participants have less of a chance.

5)Open sale. Pros:Everyone has a chance. Cons:Everyone has a chance including scalpers. Tickets sellout in 3.5 seconds.

6)Blowjob contest. Pros:Everyone wins. Cons:Potential to cause a Listerine shortage.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby scott_k » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:59 pm

@lemur

While I certianly feel that STEP is the most appropriate destination for any extra tickets that may become available from BMORG, it's not because I believe that us STEPchildren are entitled to these hypothetiocal tickets. It's not because I feel that this is the "fair" way of doing it.

If additional tickets become available, they would most likely be sold through a lottery, an open sale, direct distribution, or STEP.

Needless to say, a lottery is out of the question. An open sale is another opportunity for scalpers to take advantage of Burning Man. Direct distribution could be a practical idea, but the principle of Radical Inclusion becomes rather questionable if BMORG sets up another round of exclusive direct distribution after the initial round of 10,000 tickets (which were originally going to be sold openly). Of course, just because some prefer to burn without an established camp does not make them less qualified for tickets. While I, still ticketless, happen to aggree that the initial round of direct distribution was a good idea, I'd like to see a more inclusive approach for the subsequent round of ticket distribution.



Perhaps the distribution of the final round of tickets through STEP is most closely compliant to the Principles. Thoughts?



Again, for the record, I do not beleive this is necessarily the "fairest" way of selling these hypothetical tickets. STEP is exclusive to some degree, but I feel that I've earned my place in STEP. I scheduled a day off from work and upgraded my interenet connection so that I could be sure to make it into the STEP queue. This didn't happen by accident, or because I'm lucky.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:02 pm

lemur wrote:this signup problem/small limit comes to mind when people say that putting additional tickets if they are available in to STEP would be the more 'fair' thing to do and because people waited patiently.... gettin in to STEP itself was a bit of a clusterfuck in terms of if you were able to do-so ..a lot of people didnt feel that it was fair then..with the site getting hammered and people who showed up on time not able to get in..

it seems like if more tickets are released it might be EASIEST to put them in to STEP....... but fairest? hmm, im not so sure... i dont think there is really a fair way to distribute any extra tickets that might become available at this point


Yeah, I agree with both those. Getting into STEP was a clusterfuck. The computers worked in spurts, and a lot of people who tried didn't get in the line. I did, and it took me a couple of tries. I checked the time when I did, it was 12:22 or so. I didn't get my email until 12:29. I never knew what my timestamp was, but I expect that it's about 22 minutes.

Fairest. Oh, there was no fair way at all... I hated directed distribution--but, that's how I got mine.

I guess my next question is, does the llc have enough tickets for volunteers and service providers. I know there was some direct distribution there. Conclave doesn't have its tickets yet, as the videos are only now or soon being sent in. Yeah, I should go teach my grandmother to suck eggs; I'm sure some were set aside a long time ago. My point is something about their might well be reasons for the llc to save some for their own nefarious purposes. (That last sentence was an indulgence in hyperbole. Don't take it literally...)
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby beer » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:57 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
lemur wrote:-snip-
I guess my next question is, does the llc have enough tickets for volunteers and service providers. I know there was some direct distribution there...



Ive been going thru the EA (I like that kind of stuff). Found this...

page 2-1
2 PROPOSED ACTION AND ALTERNATIVES
2.1 Alternative 1: 58,000 to 70,000-Person Maximum Alternative (Proposed Action)
Under the 58,000 to 70,000-Person Maximum Alternative (Proposed Action), the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) would issue a five-year Special Recreation Permit (2012-2016) for the Burning Man event in Pershing County, Nevada, with a maximum population from 58,000 to 70,000 people. The authorized officer would determine the maximum population within this range for each year of the five-year permit.

The population includes all attendees of the event, including paid participants and volunteers.

The population does not include government personnel, Humboldt General Hospital emergency service providers, vendors and contractors.


My understanding about those exclusions is that they were previously counted, but no longer will be.

And, for your reading pleasure... :wink:
https://www.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/28954/37412/39212/Burning_Man_DOI-BLM-NV-W030-2012-0007-Final_EA.pdf


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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:59 pm

Is the final significantly different from the draft, or is it just the draft with response to comments?
(I have the draft on my hard drive, no need for two, I think.)
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby Eric » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:02 pm

Honestly, there is no "fair" way to distribute any tickets that may or may not be available. Personally, I think they should go to STEP, as it's set up & ready to roll, and would be the simplest procedure. I absolutely do not think they should go through a "directed distribution", enough were already made available that way.

And yes, I have a bunch of friends who didn't get their tickets who I would love to see go, I'm sure we all do. I'm trying to set aside an opinion that gets the people I want in a ticket while leaving others out, and go with a solution that is actually feasible.



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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby Sham » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:46 pm

If all the new tickets were distributed through STEP, it would free up any extra tickets that people will be selling. This will make getting tickets easier for everyone not part of the STEP program. Just many more tickets in the pipeline.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby VultureChow » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:11 pm

Eric wrote:You are obviously not a gay man.


I am not. Though I met a guy who upon hearing I was Jewish, remarked that I must be good at blowjobs. I'm not bad, but he didn't know that. He explained that Jewish girls won't put out on a date, but they will go down.

I wanted to be offended, but then I remembered my last 3 dates.
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:17 pm

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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby Savannah » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:30 pm

Eric wrote:Honestly, there is no "fair" way to distribute any tickets that may or may not be available. Personally, I think they should go to STEP, as it's set up & ready to roll, and would be the simplest procedure. I absolutely do not think they should go through a "directed distribution", enough were already made available that way.

And yes, I have a bunch of friends who didn't get their tickets who I would love to see go, I'm sure we all do. I'm trying to set aside an opinion that gets the people I want in a ticket while leaving others out, and go with a solution that is actually feasible.



VultureChow wrote:6)Blowjob contest. Pros:Everyone wins. Cons:Potential to cause a Listerine shortage.


You are obviously not a gay man.


VultureChow wrote:
I am not. Though I met a guy who upon hearing I was Jewish, remarked that I must be good at blowjobs. I'm not bad, but he didn't know that. He explained that Jewish girls won't put out on a date, but they will go down.

I wanted to be offended, but then I remembered my last 3 dates.


This is the best thread drift in weeks! :D
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Re: BLM Permit: What Does This Mean For Tickets?

Postby beer » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:02 pm

VultureChow wrote:
Eric wrote:You are obviously not a gay man.


I am not. Though I met a guy who upon hearing I was Jewish, remarked that I must be good at blowjobs. I'm not bad, but he didn't know that. He explained that Jewish girls won't put out on a date, but they will go down.

I wanted to be offended, but then I remembered my last 3 dates.


I have dated a few Jewish girls and, well, in my experience, it is true. :P




And baaaaaack to it... :mrgreen:

theCryptofishist wrote:Is the final significantly different from the draft, or is it just the draft with response to comments?
(I have the draft on my hard drive, no need for two, I think.)


Its called a final EA because, well, its final. :D
Yes its supposed to incorporate public input. Goto page 5 of the ROD to see how public input was used this year...

https://www.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/28954/37414/39214/DR_Burning_Man.pdf




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