Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Sat May 19, 2012 3:25 pm

Actually, I wouldn't care so much about ticket lottery fund raisers if tickets weren't as scarce as they are now.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby wraith » Sat May 19, 2012 5:55 pm

jkisha wrote:Actually, I wouldn't care so much about ticket lottery fund raisers if tickets weren't as scarce as they are now.


They wouldn't be a problem at all if the people who were interested also had the option to just go buy their own ticket for face value.

Scarcity's a bitch that way, no matter how it's generated.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Sat May 19, 2012 6:52 pm

wraith wrote:
jkisha wrote:Actually, I wouldn't care so much about ticket lottery fund raisers if tickets weren't as scarce as they are now.


They wouldn't be a problem at all if the people who were interested also had the option to just go buy their own ticket for face value.

Scarcity's a bitch that way, no matter how it's generated.

Exactly. That way, it's more like a lottery. Now it's more like blackmail, preying on desperation.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby gyre » Sat May 19, 2012 8:17 pm

Maybe if the same people holding the lottery, had the same chance of getting their own ticket, it would be acceptable?
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Sun May 20, 2012 8:03 am

Yes, the raffle loophole--like all loopholes mistakenly written into law--only surfaced now as a problem because of scarcity. It seems a lot of pre-existing problems have revealed themselves since this ticket scarcity problem.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Sun May 20, 2012 9:50 am

BBadger wrote:Yes, the raffle loophole--like all loopholes mistakenly written into law--only surfaced now as a problem because of scarcity. It seems a lot of pre-existing problems have revealed themselves since this ticket scarcity problem.

Interesting conclusion. I'm not so sure I think it would/should be considered a problem under different circumstances.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby wraith » Sun May 20, 2012 10:05 am

jkisha wrote:
BBadger wrote:Yes, the raffle loophole--like all loopholes mistakenly written into law--only surfaced now as a problem because of scarcity. It seems a lot of pre-existing problems have revealed themselves since this ticket scarcity problem.

Interesting conclusion. I'm not so sure I think it would/should be considered a problem under different circumstances.


Of course not. That guy on the street corner selling bread for $1000 a loaf isn't a problem either, until none of the stores have any.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Sun May 20, 2012 12:38 pm

jkisha wrote:
BBadger wrote:Yes, the raffle loophole--like all loopholes mistakenly written into law--only surfaced now as a problem because of scarcity. It seems a lot of pre-existing problems have revealed themselves since this ticket scarcity problem.

Interesting conclusion. I'm not so sure I think it would/should be considered a problem under different circumstances.


Maybe wouldn't, but probably should. The issue was just never brought to a head because, well... we seem to trust raffles. They're usually presented in the context of a "good" cause and the "proceeds" of the raffle are spent on the "good cause." Despite whatever "good cause," raffling is still a profiting mechanism even without scarcity, and that is usually why raffles are hosted in the first place.

The most deceptive aspect of a raffle for profiteering is the fact that the individual tickets sell for a fraction of the prize's value, even if the total value of the raffle tickets is more than the cost of the prize. The raffle gives the illusion that it is not selling a above face value by exchanging that price for the price of raffle tickets.

I think you'd be opposed to individuals raffling tickets for more than they paid for right? Say someone in 2010 buys 10 tickets at full price ($300), raffles each with 10 raffle tickets at $40 each, and walks away with $100 in profit per ticket. Or how about a raffle with a single raffle ticket priced greater than the prize? That's still a raffle, but with extremely good odds. In your OP you also mentioned an abusive situation where all the raffle tickets are purchased by one winner. In all these cases, it is equivalent to selling a ticket above face value.

What ticket scarcity does is two thing: increase the profit multiplier on the raffle prize, and compromise the "good cause" purpose behind buying a raffle ticket in the first place. For the former, what was a $60 raffle ticket can now be a $120 raffle ticket, or just more raffle tickets available. For the latter, even for the best of causes, the scarcity situation means people will be buying those raffle tickets just to get the prize, not because the profit goes to a good cause. It makes the raffle different from something like Kickstarter prizes, which are usually worth less than the donation itself. Sometimes, as you've pointed out in your OP, it is worth just buying ALL the tickets for the prize.

I don't think above-face-value raffles for BM tickets are okay in any context, scarcity or not. BM ticket raffles are a contradiction of BM ticket policy. If we are to accept them, then we should accept any sale of any BM ticket for any price.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Sun May 20, 2012 1:38 pm

DONT BE A SUCKER... CHEAT!
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby moonrise » Sun May 20, 2012 2:12 pm

Seems the burn is evolving at a rapid pace...or discovering a few pimples? So what, that's just life...takes time to clear up acne, be patient and get the lawyers on it!

IMO Raffles wth unlimited ticket sales would be less likely to be called out as a loophole and I am not going to split hairs with anyone about an effective tool for fundraising such as this.

I enjoyed buying a bunch of raffle tickets for a 2012 Burning Man ticket at a recent fundraiser. Missed winning it by one number. If I had won the ticket, I had plans to offer it to one freind, if he didn't accept it as a gift, I was going to offer it back to the project for a second raffle. Has anyone forgotten there is a recession raging on? I haven't.

Raffle, rabble, rabble, raffle rousers! :P
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Sun May 20, 2012 8:11 pm

lemur wrote:DONT BE A SUCKER... CHEAT!


B-b-but Lemur, it's not cheating, it's.... wait for it.... A RAFFLE.

moonrise wrote:Seems the burn is evolving at a rapid pace...or discovering a few pimples? So what, that's just life...takes time to clear up acne, be patient and get the lawyers on it!


Some festering infections need to be lanced because they'll never come to a head on their own though.

IMO Raffles wth unlimited ticket sales would be less likely to be called out as a loophole and I am not going to split hairs with anyone about an effective tool for fundraising such as this.


Sure, unlimited is great. It certainly doesn't interfere with the more important aspect of the raffle: that you've sold the minimum amount of raffle tickets to make the profit. If those suckers want to buy more (or all of them, EL OH EL), by all means let them!

What makes it even more awesome for the seller is now the buyers get the blame for trying to stack the odds in their own favor (buy above face value), even though the house always wins with its raffle profit (selling above face value). What a reversal of fortunes! Sellers have never had it better!

Has anyone forgotten there is a recession raging on? I haven't.


Nor have those rafflers! Now they have a "morally accepted" means to sell their tickets--sorry aggregate raffle tickets--above face value. Raffles are an awesome way to beat the recession! Money in, more money out!

This whole thing almost makes me want to acquire some BM ticket and start a raffle myself for some obscene amount of profit, maybe for some "Human Fund" "good purpose" (though that is implied by the raffle). Then I'd waltz back onto ePlaya with some awesome fancy graphs of where I broke-even in my ruse, and where I earned 2x, 3x, 4x, 5X the face-value-price. My innocent (or indignant) reply would be: "Hey guys, don't dog on me, this raffle-gaming shit was practically ENDORSED by BMOrg. It was for a good cause anyway (hence the raffle). Anyway ... FULL DISCLOSURE BITCH!"

Then whiny response will be, "Oh what an asshole! BMORG can't you terminate his ticket like other rafflers scalpers?!" Well sure! The ticket I just sold raffled to someone else! But they'd be wrong, right? I didn't sell that ticket, I sold the raffle tickets. HUGE difference. Maybe I'll make this even more a farce and sell a single "raffle" ticket the ticket for 3x the face value of the BM ticket. And the winner is... above-face-value (raffle-ticket) buyer #1!
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Sun May 20, 2012 8:29 pm

When is too much too much?

I used to think that the art, the camps, and what they contributed to the event were personal gifts. Bought and paid for much the same as one would a Christmas gift. But now it seems that the BMORG is incentivizing and encouraging bigger is better starting with art grants. Then people started to complain about not getting a grant and then such things as kick starter (and ticket lotteries) were tacitly and now officially sanctioned as ways to "fund" projects, and even camps, that started out as a labor of love to gift to the event, and are now treated like the wall street banks--too big to fail(i.e. treated like they are actually important for the continued existence of the event)

Are they? I don't know. And when did the slope actually start slipping? Was it when the government started requiring a permit, making paying for things like sanitation and police and permits a necessity which then made making sure the event continued to be exciting so as to Insure healthy ticket sales?

I don't know the answers, but I do know the line will continue to blur.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Stickygreen » Mon May 21, 2012 5:58 pm

BBadger wrote:This whole thing almost makes me want to acquire some BM ticket and start a raffle myself for some obscene amount of profit, maybe for some "Human Fund" "good purpose" (though that is implied by the raffle). Then I'd waltz back onto ePlaya with some awesome fancy graphs of where I broke-even in my ruse, and where I earned 2x, 3x, 4x, 5X the face-value-price. My innocent (or indignant) reply would be: "Hey guys, don't dog on me, this raffle-gaming shit was practically ENDORSED by BMOrg. It was for a good cause anyway (hence the raffle). Anyway ... FULL DISCLOSURE BITCH!"


I'd love to see you try this!

in fact I will commit to entering your raffle. With a maximum of $50 to put towards your game of chance... You must actually have a ticket to raffle, (please provide proof) and You must have a person that is reputable, and not associated with your self to draw the name, perhaps your local regional BM rep..?

I bet you don't make the money back to pay for the ticket!
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Mon May 21, 2012 6:24 pm

Stickygreen wrote:
BBadger wrote:This whole thing almost makes me want to acquire some BM ticket and start a raffle myself for some obscene amount of profit, maybe for some "Human Fund" "good purpose" (though that is implied by the raffle). Then I'd waltz back onto ePlaya with some awesome fancy graphs of where I broke-even in my ruse, and where I earned 2x, 3x, 4x, 5X the face-value-price. My innocent (or indignant) reply would be: "Hey guys, don't dog on me, this raffle-gaming shit was practically ENDORSED by BMOrg. It was for a good cause anyway (hence the raffle). Anyway ... FULL DISCLOSURE BITCH!"


I'd love to see you try this!

in fact I will commit to entering your raffle. With a maximum of $50 to put towards your game of chance... You must actually have a ticket to raffle, (please provide proof) and You must have a person that is reputable, and not associated with your self to draw the name, perhaps your local regional BM rep..?

I bet you don't make the money back to pay for the ticket!


What!? You expect rules and accountability? Hell no! I already know who's going to get that ticket.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby PLuMPs » Tue May 22, 2012 9:28 am

I just cant believe that there are people actually defending this scalping/raffling of tickets. This is yet another loophole where its ok for certain people to do what they want and get what they need. "Yes your contributuion is more important so we dont care if you profit from this." "Its great that your theme camp will be returning to the playa." "Hopefully this means there will be one less Sparklepony on the playa this year." Why is this type of greed being tolorated? When tickets sold out and so many where left high and dry everyone was like "wtf there must be a ton of scalpers" then the BORG says ...".no no no theres really not that many scalpers dont worry this is just people gaming the system." "gaming the system? Whats that?"...Oh gaming the system is when someone gets thier mother, brother, uncle, grandma, coworkers, neighbors or whoever else to buy tickets because in the end they know even if they have more than they need that they will be able to sell/scalp/raffle these tickets no problem because its pretty clear that tickets are selling out again. And yet again this practice of gaming the system is really not a problem. Even though the BORG decided to have a lottery which only winners get tickets they understand that people really wanna go so its ok to game/cheat the system. Yes raffles in the past were fine before tickets were sold out, because hey at the end of the day everyone who had the money for a ticket was still able to go to the burn. But now these rafflers are taking away someones ticket (maybe even for a more affordable price) and holding it for ransom saying...."you have the chance to win this ticket if you give ME and MY cause money"...Well what if I dont like you?....there are plenty of douchebag burners out there...Why arent these tickets being sold at face value or put back into STEP? Plain and simple these tickets are now more valueable than face value and these burners want to make a money so thry can do what they want profits. This is greedy scalping plain and simple. I dont care if you sell tickets for a nickle your motivations are the same, and the people who cant see this are either idiots or crooks themselves.

If BM continues to allow people methods for purchasing more tickets than they need and loopholes for selling them above face value. I fully intend to do so next year. Hit me up if you like raffles.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby trilobyte » Tue May 22, 2012 10:07 am

There aren't a ton of scalpers, period. I've been doing weekly tracking of tickets available at a number of sources, and compared to other ticketed events there's practically nothing available, where there are many many times more tickets out there for other concerts and festivals. If for no other reason than to thwart the scalpers that hit most ticketed 'hot ticket' events, the main sale lottery was a success.

As for projects using ticket raffles as fundraisers, they've been doing it since long before the event first sold out last year. If you don't care for the practice, then don't support a project that does a ticket raffle. Same for projects using kickstarter or other fundraiser engines, if you don't like it don't support it.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Tue May 22, 2012 10:30 am

PLuMPs wrote:I just cant believe that there are people actually defending this scalping/raffling of tickets.


those people stopped posting on this thread a while ago

ONLY LORD KNOWS WHY???

non-lordly theories why supporters of these raffles havnt been defending them after the first few posts:

supporters said what they wanted and theyve no need to echo what has been said already
they dont want to be seen supporting something that is potentially not good to support
they support it without reservation and dont see a point in arguing over it
dont give a fuck either way
they dont want to engage the people who are posting, wholly apart from their opinion on raffles
they want to distance themselves from the issue because they might benefit from such raffles




whatever the case may be.. its obvious this thread is basically dead.. and now mostly a place for a handful of folks, and maybe a few stragglers, to voice their distaste of using raffles as a profit multiplier in the sell-out world we live in now (and in the money crazed burning man we now live with)

move along, nothing to see here!
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Tue May 22, 2012 10:41 am

trilobyte wrote:As for projects using ticket raffles as fundraisers, they've been doing it since long before the event first sold out last year. If you don't care for the practice, then don't support a project that does a ticket raffle.


this is such a lame way to address the concerns

perhaps we should have applied that thinking to all of the other things folks dont very much enjoy in our community..

of course.. since these are codified in to the rules.. that wont fly anymore


DONT LIKE LOUD MUTANT VEHICLES..... WALK TO SOME OTHER PLACE

DONT LIKE LOUD SOUND CAMPS? RANGERS WONT HELP YOU... MOVE YOUR TENT

DONT LIKE PLUG AND PLAY FOR PROFIT ADVENTURE CAMPS? DONT BUY THEIR SERVICES.. MOVE YER TENT

DONT LIKE KRUG USING BURNING MAN AS A BACKDROP? DONT GO TO THEIR DINNER PARTY AND DONT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS

DONT LIKE SCALPERS? DONT BUY THEIR TICKETS

DONT LIKE UNSAFE FIRE ART? DONT GO NEAR IT

DONT LIKE DANGEROUS MUTANT VEHICLES THAT CAUSE A LOT OF INJURIES? DONT ASK THE ESD OR DMV FOR HELP.. JUST DONT GO ON DANGEROUS MUTANT VEHICLES

DONT LIKE PEOPLE ADVERTISING THEIR KICKSTARTRS ENDLESSLY ON EPLAYA? JUST DONT LOOK AT THOSE THREADS

DONT LIKE PEOPLE SELLING SHIT ON EPLAYA ? DONT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS AND PLONK THE PERSON

DONT LIKE YOUR CURRENT SITUATION AND NEED HELP FROM A RANGER ?? CHANGE IT YOURSELF.. TOUGH LUCK, RADICAL SELF RELIANCE, PAL

DONT LIKE PEOPLE SELLING YOUR NUDE PHOTOS ON THE INTERNET? DONT WALK AROUND NAKED..TOUGH LUCK.. PROBABLY SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN NUDE

DONT LIKE PEOPLE SELLING TICKETS ABOVE FACE VALUE IN A RAFFLE ? DONT BUY A RAFFLE TICKET


of course.. theres plenty of things that the community and the LLC itself has codified into things that we dont approve of.. people seem very strong in support of this issue, as its grandfathered in, and we know how much those types of things cannot be touched.

but perhaps it should be reconsidered.

but ya know.. its pretty stinky and a buncha bullshit.. and it aint pre-2011 anymore
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby trilobyte » Tue May 22, 2012 11:00 am

Sounds like you're operating under the mistaken impression that Burning Man is only supposed to only allow the things you like, and heavily regulate and enforce everything else.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue May 22, 2012 11:08 am

You people should simply do what we do: We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Tue May 22, 2012 11:19 am

trilobyte wrote:Sounds like you're operating under the mistaken impression that Burning Man is only supposed to only allow the things you like, and heavily regulate and enforce everything else.


the same could have been said for nearly every 'rule' added to the book or to the practices since this whole burning man thing started


in 2011 if you didnt like the loud as fuck mutant vehicles you just had to deal with it

in 2012 there is a system in place and practices to deal with loud as fuck mutant vehicles



its not as if the heavily regulated and enforced things were set in stone in 1990.. they adjust to meet the needs of the community, the 'customers' the clients.. the valuable attendees who pay for it all

attendees being taken advantage of is enough of a reason to cancel a ticket if the person is overtly selling it for profit

attendees being taken advantage of isnt enough of a reason to cancel a ticket if the person is overtly selling it for a profit that is endorsed or approved of



its not about allowing the things i like and regulating the things i dont... more-so. its about applying their current regulations without a bunch of asterisks.


SELLING TICKETS ABOVE FACE VALUE IS GROUNDS TO HAVE YOUR TICKET ORDER CANCELLED AND NULLIFIED*


*unless we like what youd do with the money




we already have a heavily regulated and enforced policy for this practice.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby trilobyte » Tue May 22, 2012 11:26 am

Got it, you don't like raffles.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Tue May 22, 2012 11:39 am

raffles are fine

unless they are raffling a ticket
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby PLuMPs » Tue May 22, 2012 11:41 am

Moderators are like the Politicians of the message board world.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue May 22, 2012 11:42 am

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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Tue May 22, 2012 11:44 am

the LLC doesnt like people to sell tickets over face value because profiting off a ticket is considered taking advantage of burners...


raffle some art.. or services, or hugs.. or concert tickets, or a blender to fund yer camp... the LLC hasnt regulated that yet
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby lemur » Tue May 22, 2012 12:13 pm

im not big on theme camps/artists/mutant vehicle people doing fundraisers/kickstartrs/raffles to spend beyond the resources of the individuals/group directly involved... but we have reached a point at burning man where bigger is better is the norm.. and it is expected at this point that people will need a lot of money to do what they do at burning man.. so i guess we have to deal with it

im not a big fan of groups who do plug n play things to fund their camp or art.. who sell spots in their camp to fund a project.. (not the same as dues camps who ask folks within their community for money.. but people who solicit outsiders.. and their money..) but there doesnt seem to be anything stopping them from doing so

s0 ..i can not like that and thats about all that there is for that


but i think this whole raffling a ticket thing is different than all of the other fundraising methods we have seen in the community.. .. at this point.. i think its different.

we have been encouraged to turn the people in who have been selling tickets above face value because these people are taking advantage of the scarcity of tickets

people have been raffling tickets for ages.. but not in an environment of scarcity.. we cant really grandfather that practice in, in my mind.. because its different now.. as the people looking for a ticket can be, depending on who ya ask.. be one who is being taken advantage of for the profit of someone else (for a possibly 'good cause')


s0 yeah!! im not big on fundraising from the community outside your group.. but i dont really see any reason to have that stopped (at this point)

im also not big on people raffling tickets to fundraise...... but i think that we already have reasons to stop this.. the current policy that has been embraced and in practice codifies why we should stop these ticket raffles
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Tue May 22, 2012 6:05 pm

Truth be told, I don't care one way or the other. But it's always interesting arguing about it. (I mean discussing it. 8) )
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby BBadger » Tue May 22, 2012 9:24 pm

What I'm looking for is some consistency in policy. If BMOrg forbids the sale of tickets above face value, why is there tacit support for raffles--which are directly equivalent to selling above face value in terms of the profit earned by the seller/raffler? Is the difference that raffles are usually, but not always, in the context of fundraising for good causes? That is flimsy logic, but if so, then the official policy should be: tickets can be sold/raffled for any price whatsoever so long as it is fundraising for "good causes".

Otherwise, we have a contradiction in policy--a loophole that is open to exploitation.

What is BMOrg's fundamental policy for selling/raffling tickets above face value?

This needs to be nailed down. If raffles are officially sanctioned "fundraising" mechanisms, we are opening a whole can of worms in terms of future ticket sales. Just because raffles are not a problem now doesn't mean they won't become a problem in the future, especially as people seek means to capitalize on their invest in the same manner as scalpers do now.
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Re: Raffle vs. "Buy it now"

Postby Elderberry » Tue May 22, 2012 10:18 pm

Considering that scalping is legal in the state where the event is held, BMORG really can't "forbid" that the tickets be sold for over face value. All they can do is "suggest" that it violates one of the "principles".

(assuming munderstanding of the law is correct)

And the principles are pretty much like the commandments...who actually hasn't broken at least one?
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