Ticket Transfer Help

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Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:33 am

Hello,

i have the potential possibility of a ticket transfer from someone i dont know (for face value) and would like some advice from people about how this would work.keeping everybodies security in mind. For the security of the seller, If the ticket name is changed on Willcall before any money transfer is made can the name be then changed back if no money is transfered? For the security of the seller, if the name is changed and the money transferred before the confirmation email has been sent to the seller confirming the name change, can the seller then cancel the name change once he has received money?

Also i dont suppose burning man mediate any money transfers do they? ie. hold onto money from the buyer until the names have been officially been changed by the seller?

Thank you very much
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:56 am

Trilo I'm sure will chime in, but no.. BM will not hold or deal with anyone else's money. That's your responsibility. I'm also almost 100% sure that after a change is initiated, no previous parties can change it.. only the person whose name it now is in may do anything with them. This is why the best overall way if you can't meet face to face or transfer with a known friend, is to use PayPal for the hard ticket and use a credit card as your funding source instead of a bank account. This way, if the person quickly removes the money and PayPal can't recover, you can always file a dispute with your CC company against PayPal for the loss and non-receipt.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:16 am

Thankyou for the response! I think I will try and meet up with the person. The only concern I have is that after the name change form has been filled out it takes 2 days for a confirmation of the name change... It is quite alot of money to hand over to a stranger to have to wait that long for a confirmation of purchase...!
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Drawingablank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:39 am

I'm not sure what you might gain from meeting in person unless exchanging actual printed tickets.

As stated above your best protection is to use a major credit card. In the case of fraud or other problems the credit card companies will always side with the buyer - the burden of proof (of delivery, etc...) then falls to the seller.

That is based on roughly 3 decades of accepting credit cards as a merchant. Card companies have sided with my customers every time without fail until we provided proof of delivery. Even for the most ridiculous reasons like a customer forgetting they ordered something from us, seeing it on their bill, and contacting the card company. It's one of the reasons even the most mercenary businesses take customers complaints so seriously (chargebacks get a stiff penalty fee, and if they get too many it affects the percentage they pay to accept charges, or even loss of their merchant account).
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Elderberry » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:44 am

Drawingablank wrote:I'm not sure what you might gain from meeting in person unless exchanging actual printed tickets.

As stated above your best protection is to use a major credit card. In the case of fraud or other problems the credit card companies will always side with the buyer - the burden of proof (of delivery, etc...) then falls to the seller.

That is based on roughly 3 decades of accepting credit cards as a merchant. Card companies have sided with my customers every time without fail until we provided proof of delivery. Even for the most ridiculous reasons like a customer forgetting they ordered something from us, seeing it on their bill, and contacting the card company. It's one of the reasons even the most mercenary businesses take customers complaints so seriously (chargebacks get a stiff penalty fee, and if they get too many it affects the percentage they pay to accept charges, or even loss of their merchant account).

WARNING: This is NOT the case if you use Paypal. Actually, quite the opposite is true.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:51 am

[quote="Drawingablank"]I'm not sure what you might gain from meeting in person unless exchanging actual printed tickets.

I guess what i thought there would be to gain from meeting the person is that i could watch him fill out the name change form.... ? that seems to make the most sense to me i guess....
Would a credit card company really side with you if you paid for something from a complete stranger online and didn't receive what you had paid for?
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Drawingablank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:57 am

jkisha wrote:
Drawingablank wrote:I'm not sure what you might gain from meeting in person unless exchanging actual printed tickets.

As stated above your best protection is to use a major credit card. In the case of fraud or other problems the credit card companies will always side with the buyer - the burden of proof (of delivery, etc...) then falls to the seller.

That is based on roughly 3 decades of accepting credit cards as a merchant. Card companies have sided with my customers every time without fail until we provided proof of delivery. Even for the most ridiculous reasons like a customer forgetting they ordered something from us, seeing it on their bill, and contacting the card company. It's one of the reasons even the most mercenary businesses take customers complaints so seriously (chargebacks get a stiff penalty fee, and if they get too many it affects the percentage they pay to accept charges, or even loss of their merchant account).

WARNING: This is NOT the case if you use Paypal. Actually, quite the opposite is true.


Well as JS mentioned, use a credit card that is not linked to a paypal account. Personally I detest Paypal and have had several problems with them, but you can use a non paypal card to pay someone with paypal as far as I know.
Savannah: I don't know what it is, but no thread here escapes alive. You'll get 1 or 2 real answers at minimum, occasionally 10 or 12, and then we flog it until it's unrecognizable and you can't get your deposit back.

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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Drawingablank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:04 am

jecca wrote:
Drawingablank wrote:I'm not sure what you might gain from meeting in person unless exchanging actual printed tickets.

I guess what i thought there would be to gain from meeting the person is that i could watch him fill out the name change form.... ? that seems to make the most sense to me i guess....
Would a credit card company really side with you if you paid for something from a complete stranger online and didn't receive what you had paid for?

Well I suppose that is a thought, quite frankly it never occurred to me. Of course if you meet in person, they would probably expect you to bring cash which presents a whole different set of problems. If you do meet in person and transact this via computer, keep in mind that the browser's back button may bring all your card info back up so be careful with that (use your computer, not theirs).

Credit card companies side with the people they make to most money off of. As a card owner you pay way more in interest than a card accepter who typically pays between 2% and 5% per transaction.
Last edited by Drawingablank on Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Elderberry » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:07 am

Drawingablank wrote:
Well as JS mentioned, use a credit card that is not linked to a paypal account. Personally I detest Paypal and have had several problems with them, but you can use a non paypal card to pay someone with paypal as far as I know.

I have a love/hate relationship with them myself. They work fine if all goes well, but you just can't count on them when there is a problem. I have had two experiences using Paypal where merchandise was not delivered and both times Paypal sided with the merchant. Now, if I am forced to use them, I chose the option to pay via Credit Card.

I do, however, offer Paypal as a payment option on our company website. Some people really prefer them--go figure. :shock:
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Drawingablank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:25 am

jkisha wrote:
Drawingablank wrote:
Well as JS mentioned, use a credit card that is not linked to a paypal account. Personally I detest Paypal and have had several problems with them, but you can use a non paypal card to pay someone with paypal as far as I know.

I have a love/hate relationship with them myself. They work fine if all goes well, but you just can't count on them when there is a problem. I have had two experiences using Paypal where merchandise was not delivered and both times Paypal sided with the merchant. Now, if I am forced to use them, I chose the option to pay via Credit Card.

I do, however, offer Paypal as a payment option on our company website. Some people really prefer them--go figure. :shock:

My experience with them was the opposite. I've been defrauded several times by buyers and Paypal did not even follow their own guidelines for that and just pulled the money from my account. No recourse, and no way to actually get a human on the phone. I no longer offer paypal to my customers. Plus - paypal charges more than double the percentage I currently pay for merchant services.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:25 am

Actually.. wait wait wait.. you're misunderstanding what I was trying to say.

I ALWAYS use a linked credit card when I'm using PayPal because of the following scenario:

If you use your bank account or debit card and draw funds directly out of your account.. and for some reason you need to make a non-delivery claim.. you win the claim.. PayPal attempts to collect from the seller.. and they don't have the funds anymore in their account.. you get a simple "Sorry, we couldn't collect. We'll keep trying though". Meaning so sorry, you lose.

IF you use a credit card, you can make a claim directly against PayPal.. and WIN.. because of the non-delivery. It's not your fault that PayPal couldn't collect. They didn't deliver what you paid for, so you win.

I've had this exact scenario play out more than a few times as I online shop for everything that I possibly can. Hell.. I even buy groceries online these days.


Drawingablank wrote:
jkisha wrote:
Drawingablank wrote:I'm not sure what you might gain from meeting in person unless exchanging actual printed tickets.

As stated above your best protection is to use a major credit card. In the case of fraud or other problems the credit card companies will always side with the buyer - the burden of proof (of delivery, etc...) then falls to the seller.

That is based on roughly 3 decades of accepting credit cards as a merchant. Card companies have sided with my customers every time without fail until we provided proof of delivery. Even for the most ridiculous reasons like a customer forgetting they ordered something from us, seeing it on their bill, and contacting the card company. It's one of the reasons even the most mercenary businesses take customers complaints so seriously (chargebacks get a stiff penalty fee, and if they get too many it affects the percentage they pay to accept charges, or even loss of their merchant account).

WARNING: This is NOT the case if you use Paypal. Actually, quite the opposite is true.


Well as JS mentioned, use a credit card that is not linked to a paypal account. Personally I detest Paypal and have had several problems with them, but you can use a non paypal card to pay someone with paypal as far as I know.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Drawingablank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:51 am

junglesmacks wrote:Actually.. wait wait wait.. you're misunderstanding what I was trying to say.

I ALWAYS use a linked credit card when I'm using PayPal because of the following scenario:

If you use your bank account or debit card and draw funds directly out of your account.. and for some reason you need to make a non-delivery claim.. you win the claim.. PayPal attempts to collect from the seller.. and they don't have the funds anymore in their account.. you get a simple "Sorry, we couldn't collect. We'll keep trying though". Meaning so sorry, you lose.

IF you use a credit card, you can make a claim directly against PayPal.. and WIN.. because of the non-delivery. It's not your fault that PayPal couldn't collect. They didn't deliver what you paid for, so you win.

I've had this exact scenario play out more than a few times as I online shop for everything that I possibly can. Hell.. I even buy groceries online these days.



Actually this is a bit of confusion in terminology as what I meant by not linked was to not use an actual paypal credit card as that would be like asking paypal to make a claim against themselves.
Savannah: I don't know what it is, but no thread here escapes alive. You'll get 1 or 2 real answers at minimum, occasionally 10 or 12, and then we flog it until it's unrecognizable and you can't get your deposit back.

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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:54 am

Gotcha. Those PayPal CCs are horrid, BTW.. they're serviced by GE Money. Within months of getting the card years ago and using it up, they jacked my rates sky high for no reason.. and then as I paid it down, they would change my credit limit to exactly just above my balance.. every time. I've never had a credit score below 650 at the very worst, either. They're also the only CC company I know that will NOT do auto-pay. If you forget to manually go to the PayPal site every month and make your payment, you're slapped with a nasty late fee.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:04 am

thanks for all the help, but I am now pretty certain it is a scam!
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Savannah » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:12 pm

Interesting, Jecca. (And sorry to hear it). This has still been a useful thread, as we've been able to listen to people talk about their experiences with paypal vs. credit cards.

Without listing names or email addresses of the potential scam artists, what new developments were there that tipped you off?
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Savannah wrote:Interesting, Jecca. (And sorry to hear it). This has still been a useful thread, as we've been able to listen to people talk about their experiences with paypal vs. credit cards.

Without listing names or email addresses of the potential scam artists, what new developments were there that tipped you off?



I typed his phone number into google, and he came up as a very well reported scammer! seems like there are many people over the internet trying to track him down...

Oh well! I thought it was too good to be true....it was!
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby Savannah » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:46 pm

Goodness. That's usually better warning than many people get (usually it's a hinky feeling, a number of red flags, or a calculation of simple poor odds).

Good for you for watching out for yourself. The stories we hear from people are just crushing.

I imagine you've told all your friends, family and co-workers you're looking and have joined your regional groups? (http://regionals.burningman.com/) Networking and spreading the word is the best way to get a ticket on the aftermarket. When a Burner's plans fall through, most of them want to see the ticket in the hands of another Burner, rather than go to a possible scalper or total stranger.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby trilobyte » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:55 pm

Responding to the original post, no once someone transfers a ticket order they can't un-transfer it (no take-backsies!). And no, Burning Man does not broker person-to-person after-market sales.

I'd also recommend paying with PayPal. HOWEVER, make sure you do not send the money as a gift. Sure, there's a temptation to do that to avoid the fees (small percentage on the transaction), but sending money as a gift affords no purchase protection. That may mean that you have to send more money than the agreed-upon purchase price (to cover the paypal transaction fees), but that's a small price for the peace of mind you're seeking.

Nudging this over to tickets discussion, since that's a better fit.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Fri May 04, 2012 10:46 am

trilobyte wrote:Responding to the original post, no once someone transfers a ticket order they can't un-transfer it (no take-backsies!). And no, Burning Man does not broker person-to-person after-market sales.

I'd also recommend paying with PayPal. HOWEVER, make sure you do not send the money as a gift. Sure, there's a temptation to do that to avoid the fees (small percentage on the transaction), but sending money as a gift affords no purchase protection. That may mean that you have to send more money than the agreed-upon purchase price (to cover the paypal transaction fees), but that's a small price for the peace of mind you're seeking.

Nudging this over to tickets discussion, since that's a better fit.


I received an email from partiserv saying that "take-backsies" was in fact possible?! so who to listen to? It is quite an important issue for those buying from a stranger...!

And on the note of strangers... would burning man confirm that a potential seller had tickets to sell... by emailing their name?

Thanks!
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby trilobyte » Fri May 04, 2012 10:52 am

I'll check with the ticket team, but the whole point of transferring the order is that it's… being transferred.

And no, Burning Man is not able to provide ticket verification services.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby junglesmacks » Fri May 04, 2012 11:00 am

trilobyte wrote:I'll check with the ticket team, but the whole point of transferring the order is that it's… being transferred.


Exactly. This makes no sense.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby gyre » Fri May 04, 2012 2:46 pm

I have heard of them doing what they could in cases of fraud.

It isn't a casual thing.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby trilobyte » Fri May 04, 2012 11:22 pm

The person who misled Jecca was going by old and outdated event (pre-2012 event), and has since been corrected.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Sat May 05, 2012 3:14 am

trilobyte wrote:The person who misled Jecca was going by old and outdated event (pre-2012 event), and has since been corrected.


Thanks, Trilo, this makes thing WAY simpler!
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby jecca » Mon May 07, 2012 10:40 am

Hello again, sorry for the relentless confusion BUT if I see someone fill out the name change form then, does that mean I can 100 percent safely hand over the money, and there is no way they can cancel the change etc?
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby trilobyte » Tue May 08, 2012 1:44 am

You're just going to have to trust them, or not do business with them. If you want something that's absolutely secure, STEP is your only option - everything else has some chance of getting scammed. If you don't trust the seller, don't buy from them. You can wait until ticket fulfillment happens and do a face-to-face in-person purchase of physical tickets, but there's a chance someone could be selling you a counterfeit ticket.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby junglesmacks » Tue May 08, 2012 1:55 am

Trilo.. that doesn't answer or address her question though.

There was some misinformation given earlier, so she's trying to be totally clear. If an original purchaser successfully completes the transfer of name/address form and gets a confirmation screen confirming the transfer, then there is absolutely no way that they can later reverse the transfer.. right?
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby trilobyte » Tue May 08, 2012 2:07 am

Your logic assumes that the transfer is processed instantly, while you wait. That is not the case. I'm saying it's not 100% secure, there's no way to guarantee someone won't try to pull a fast one even if you're sitting on their lap when they enter the request on the site.
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby junglesmacks » Tue May 08, 2012 2:09 am

Ok, so are you saying that while the transfer is in process, that someone could indeed cancel it after the fact?


Be clear, man!
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Re: Ticket Transfer Help

Postby trilobyte » Tue May 08, 2012 2:19 am

I am not going to go into detail on how someone could pull a scam. What I am saying is that once a ticket order has been transferred, the new owner is contacted in the event subsequent changes to the order are requested. Anything outside of STEP carries some risk of fraud.
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