Principal #1

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Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:31 pm

"Principal #1: No prerequisites exist for participation in our community."

Just wanted to get this straight. The remaining 10,000 tickets which were slated
for open sale are now being given to theme camps? And these theme camps
have to fill out a form stating just how much they have done to contribute to BM
and submit that form of prerequisites for consideration to receive the tickets that were for the open sale?

Is this pretty much what's going on?
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Re: Principal #1

Postby trilobyte » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:41 pm

Welcome to the site. You may care to read any of the dozens of other threads on the subject.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 pm

and YOU may care to continually avoid the 800-pound hypocrisy in the room.

Thanks for the welcome!
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Re: Principal #1

Postby International Incident » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 pm

trilobyte wrote:Welcome to the site. You may care to read any of the dozens of other threads on the subject.


+100

@M.Bison. this issue has been done to death. Feel free to have a vent, but please do it in an informed manner.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby International Incident » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:46 pm

M. Bison wrote:and YOU may care to continually avoid the 800-pound hypocrisy in the room.

Thanks for the welcome!


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Re: Principal #1

Postby Jackass » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:49 pm

Sock, troll or both?
bullshit-o-meter.gif
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Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:54 pm

Now that's a welcome!

:D I did like, until i noticed the blatant hypocrisy.
Speaking up about it gets you the "if you don't like it, go away".
And I'm sure many people have.
Anyone who attacks me for speaking up IS part of the hypocrisy.

Nice vibe. Keep up the good work.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby tamarakay » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:56 pm

Hi M. Bison, I do welcome you to Eplaya.

As you can tell even the people that might agree with you are getting touchy about the subject and those that don't agree with you are REALLY touchy. I think we are all getting to the point of It is what it is and here we are.

Have you been to a burn yet? If not, please read the survival guide, then read it again. If so, what grabbed you the most?
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Re: Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:13 pm

Thanks again for the welcome!

I know the issue is touchy, but it just seems like MANY are afraid to even speak up about the hypocrisy
because they don't want to be shunned, or because it seems that the hypocrisy will always be justified by those
"on the inside". .

and thanks for asking about me too. :) I've never burned but have thrown hundreds of events for thousands of
people in my area so I can honestly say I am schooled in the logistics of throwing events. *flashes credentials*

To be clear, my orginal post was not meant to ruffle feathers or throw any more gas on the fire,
but just to point out that THE VERY FIRST PRINCIPAL is that no prerequisites are required to attend.

And now tix are being awarded on prerequisites? I know it didnt take a "noob" to point this out,
but it is disheartening that anyone who mentions it is deemed an instant TROLL.

I have many friends that have burned MANY times and always speak very highly of the experience,
which is reflected by the ticket demand. :) So props to all of you.

As for a solution to the hyprocrisy, IMHO, maybe just take the
"No prerequisites exist for participation in our community" off of the first principal,
at least until that is actually the case. Peace and blessings.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:26 pm

No one ever goes through this life with absolute moral purity.

I don't like the decision they made, but I don't always make the right choice when I'm in the pressure cooker...
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Re: Principal #1

Postby tamarakay » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:27 pm

Some may be afraid of being shunned, but I'd say they don't know this group very well. Once out there, all this crap goes away and it's us in the dust having a party.

I personally have mixed feelings about the situation. Yes I get the hypocrisy, but having been I completely understand the need to get those tickets to the core volunteers and some of the theme camps. Mostly to the heavy lifter volunteers than the theme camps, and from what i've seen they are a lot of the same people. It is a hard solution to a crappy situation and i'm not sure if it is the best solution. However it is some kind of a solution and i am very glad we are moving on and people can get going on their plans.

Take what you need and leave the rest. Remember the ones that jump on you the hardest in here would also probably be the very first to come over and offer to help you keep your tent from blowing away.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:41 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Logistics are NEVER easy.
Hopefully, if anything, this thread facilitates more respectful discussion between the "old" and "new". :)

I, too, understand the need for the familiar heavy-lifters.
At the same time, none of us will know what BM would have been like this year if "they" stuck to the original
plan and allowed the final open sale to happen. Looking in from the outside though,
breaking your own principals to stick with what's familiar comes across as being very scared of change.
I also believe this struggle will only strengthen the commUNITY in the long-run.

again, only my opinions. Party on Wayne!!!
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Trishntek » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:48 pm

To clarify this a bit for M. Bison, whom I welcome with a big HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

The application is the same application every art project, mutant vehicle and theme camp has to fill out every year for placement. Placement grants a reserved piece of ground for that applicant's use. That applicant only receives that ground if they arrive before the gate opens to the general public.

The ticket allotment for these organizations is based upon their history, their GIFT to BRC, and their allegiance to the 10 principles. If they receive an offering of tickets, they must still purchase them at $420 per ticket. The tickets are not "given" as you state.

I do hope you realize, as does BMORG, these organizations only have 25% to 30% of their personnel with tickets. These organizations represent literally MILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of hours given by willing participants who make Burning Man something more than a camping trip in the desert.

This gesture by BMorg does not come to them easily and they fully realize the compromise. There are intrinsic risks to TTITD and they are looking at the likelihood of 65% to 75% of the population being first-time virgins. This threatens the fabric of the Burning Man culture. Even the 10,000 tickets for experienced, hard-working volunteers will not bring the populace into balance.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Herring » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:54 pm

M. Bison wrote: seems like MANY are afraid to even speak up about the hypocrisy...


How does it seem like that at all? If you had bothered to read the first page of threads in this tickets discussion forum you would have seen that the VAST majority agree with you and NOBODY is afraid to bitch and moan and complain about this and there is pointing out of hypocrisy left and right.

You could have added to those already existing discussions, but instead you post a new thread ignoring everyone that's already said the same thing and insult us by claiming your the first person to say it? And you're surprised we hope you're a troll? Because the alternative is that you're either too self-centered to consider reading even a couple of posts to see that others have been saying the same thing you're saying over and over, or you just lack reading comprehension entirely.

Now, you want to know what makes people get mad about pointing out the hypocrisy? Because it doesn't contribute to any kind of solution. Nobody likes complainers, but everybody appreciates somebody willing to offer solutions and be proactive.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:11 pm

Before you tell me to go read anymore, maybe YOU did not read that i did post my opinion on a solution??

"As for a solution to the hyprocrisy, IMHO, maybe just take the
"No prerequisites exist for participation in our community" off of the first principal,
at least until that is actually the case. Peace and blessings."

and as far as this, "and insult us by claiming your the first person to say it?"
I respectfully ask that you do not put words in my mouth because I did not claim that. :)

and to Trishntek:

I do fully understand all those points.
And I know the tix for the theme camps are not free,
but i also have $420, can i buy a ticket? (if you get what i mean).

ANd I'll keep this short because i sense the flame-war coming.

Perhaps those 10,000 tix can be ear-marked as such BEFORE they
are announced as being the tix for open sale, so as not to repeat
the offense of giving people false hope. I understand that much
money and time is spent by the people who "make" the event, but the money
and time spent by first-time attendees and non-volunteers is equally
as important to them. *Big hug back*
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Stickygreen » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:14 pm

Trishntek wrote:The ticket allotment for these organizations is based upon their history, their GIFT to BRC, and their allegiance to the 10 principles. If they receive an offering of tickets, they must still purchase them at $420 per ticket. The tickets are not "given" as you state..



Once you expect something in return for a gift it is no longer a gift.. it's a trade.

if I were you, I'd use that word Gift a little more carefully, especially to a person who has never experienced BM.
Last edited by Stickygreen on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:17 pm

I,ll be suprised if all 10k go to camps and infrastucture.

I'm guessing 2 to 3k will be used that way and the rest will be in STEP.

I could be wrong, but I'm not uncertain. 8)
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Re: Principal #1

Postby International Incident » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:18 pm

M. Bison wrote:
Perhaps those 10,000 tix can be ear-marked as such BEFORE they
are announced as being the tix for open sale, so as not to repeat
the offense of giving people false hope.


Did you NOT READ ANYTHING before you posted this.

Go back and read the Blog post about the tix on the front page of the BM website.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby M. Bison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:23 pm

I'll go read it again if you give me your opinion on my solution that you conveniently passed over. trade? :)
(im KIDDING, RELAX on the attacks!)

Good night all. Thx for the warm welcome and allowing me to opine.
When you have a good thing going, everyone wants in. Cheers!
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Re: Principal #1

Postby alt12 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:27 pm

M. Bison wrote:Thanks again for the welcome!

I know the issue is touchy, but it just seems like MANY are afraid to even speak up about the hypocrisy
because they don't want to be shunned, or because it seems that the hypocrisy will always be justified by those
"on the inside"



Yes its hypocrisy. I agree with you. I really dislike this decision for the reasons you've mentioned and more. But you have clearly missed-out the full on hate-fest flame-war that has pitted fellow burners against fellow burners for the last 3 weeks. I don't know what to tell you except people are getting tired of fighting about this and the exceptional amount of hostility regarding this topic on this board.

If it makes you feel any better, not a single person I've talked to in person (different burners from probably at least 5-6 different camps and art projects) feel good about this decision. It is being widely discussed and criticized in the real world for the same issues of exclusiveness, elitism, class-system, etc. and there is plenty of offline concern about it. Personally I "give up" on fighting about this on eplaya. Seems like others feel the same way. Everyone feels strongly about their positions and its kind of an agree-to-disagree situation.

If you want to ramp-up the flame-fest, be my guest but you're on your own...
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Canoe » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:21 pm

melaniejane wrote:
trilobyte wrote:Welcome to the site. You may care to read any of the dozens of other threads on the subject.

+100
@M.Bison. this issue has been done to death. Feel free to have a vent, but please do it in an informed manner.

+100

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Re: Principal #1

Postby 5280MeV » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:41 am

I find it extremely interesting that the "10 Principles" as written are often taken like stone tablets given by God in the very same arguments that criticize the every move of the LLC and generally accuse them of profiteering and/or incompetence. It is funny because this very same LLC apparently crafted this list (or at least published it) sometime around 2004-2005, nearly 20 years after burning man started.

In fact, the only early reference I can find to radical inclusion comes from the general attitude of the Cacophony society - "You may already be a member" - along with this quote from a Larry Harvey interview in 2000:

Larry Harvey wrote:I think when anyone participates they're cool. Any other standard is a form of affectation. We're radically inclusive. Far too much time is wasted in subcultures feeling superior to outsiders. I've never felt comfortable with in-groups or with the secret totems and subtle signs that are used to exclude people.]


So I am not even sure that the statement on "radical inclusion" in the "10 Principles" is even that well written in terms of getting across the spirit of what I think might be the core idea behind this statement. The point is that there is evidently not supposed to be any special knowledge, skills, or subtle attributes that get you into the "cool crowd". Everyone that can take care of themselves and behave in such a way to destroy other people's experience, artwork, or personal property is inherently just as cool as everyone else - no matter what their "costume" or artwork looks like.

As far as taking the "no prerequisites" literally, it does not make any sense at all. Of course there are prerequisites. For one, you have to read the survival guide. Second, if you lack enough water they can turn you away at the gate. If you vandalize artwork you can get kicked out. Not being a vandal is a prerequisite.

I think that the LLC is acting in a sincere manner trying to navigate the impossible to craft a reasonable compromise with the time and resources that they have left for 2012. If anything, their mistake may have been flirting with creating a religion.

The way I see it, these are a group of artists who created a unique festive event out of a bonfire party in the desert, and a culture grew around the event. Although clearly not the same, one can compare these social bonds to the krewes that comprise Mardi Gras. Burning Man was a unique and new sort of event, and in order to help foster the creation of similar events they tried to make a list of the cultural values that emerged in the context of the event, as a guide or covenant for related events to follow or aspire to.

Ultimately, are we not trying to have a fun and interesting time in the desert?

Furthermore, each real event that is allied with BM is going to have its own take on these ideas, its own cultural variation, and its own flaws. The only lasting and real "solution" to the "crisis" is in my mind a more "serious" attitude towards putting energy into other events, many of which are existing, established, and would openly welcome grand ideas.

This is where I am headed. As an Eastern US resident and relative newcomer, it is clear that there is no more room on the playa, and it is insanely expensive to get me and my equipment out there anyway. I can do a lot more for a lot less money on this side of the country. If expressing the culture of Burning Man is something that can only be done at Burning Man, then I have to question the value of the whole exercise.

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Re: Principal #1

Postby BBadger » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:00 am

Nobody is avoiding the "elephant in the room", but we would prefer that you post your complaints/ideas/comments in one of the many other threads about the same subject. Unfortunately, some people have taken time to encourage this thread to persist longer than it should.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby tamarakay » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:32 am

Yep, it happens. Just as we get multiple "what's the best shelter" "this is my list what am i missing" "how do I join a theme camp" threads. Occasionally the snark is funny, but questions get answered.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby ZaphodBurner » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:10 am

M. Bison wrote:"Principal #1: No prerequisites exist for participation in our community."

Just wanted to get this straight. The remaining 10,000 tickets which were slated
for open sale are now being given to theme camps? And these theme camps
have to fill out a form stating just how much they have done to contribute to BM
and submit that form of prerequisites for consideration to receive the tickets that were for the open sale?

Is this pretty much what's going on?


Yep. Because 40,000+ other people got their tickets via Principle #1 and there's no expectation for 40% of them to do anything but show up and enjoy themselves.

What are you going to do for Black Rock City this year?
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Re: Principal #1

Postby ZaphodBurner » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:52 am

M. Bison wrote: I've never burned


Then you don't get it. It's not your fault, but, you just don't.

You're not going to be able to get it until you've been there, and nobody's going to be able to adequately explain to you how Black Rock City used to be when the first three streets were populated by groups of people who shared their weekends all year long, or year around, to participate in BRC. When the trapeze troupes, fire spinners or other groups performed rehearsed material all day and night.

Soul in the Machine is one of the most incredibly fascinating musical performances I've seen, and The Mutaytor shows were awesome, but, such things might be impossible for YOU to experience this year. To put this in the context of a concert: You don't tell the artists "Sorry, you can't come in the building. The show sold out."

Camp operators are among those legally responsible if some douchebag fucktard "participant" helps himself to the liquor and happens to be underage, or undercover. You can't just build a camp off of Craigslist or the ePlaya, because, how do you know you're not going to wake up in the morning and discover that one of your new friends hasn't left the playa with your camp generator and bikes. How do you know the stranger you're camping with isn't a predator or a violent drunk? If you say "Hey, this is my camp, everybody's welcome to help me," are you prepared to be sued if somebody cracks their foot or impales themselves on one of your new friends' rebar stakes, or somebody gets killed on your mutant vehicle?

On the playa, I split most of my days between working on the vehicle, slinging root beer or absinthe, and volunteering at the airport. My wife does her own volunteer things. It's like working; we meet in the afternoon. And, the way I view it, we're not going to get to buy camp core tickets because OTHER PEOPLE WORK EVEN HARDER.

Burning Man is hard. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be any fun.

I don't think you get it, but, I don't blame you because there's nowhere else like Black Rock City. It's not like a party where everybody just shows up in cool clothes, has a good time and leaves when they feel like it. If it's reduced to that, it will cease to be Black Rock City.

Until you've experienced it, you simply cannot understand.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:04 am

M. Bison wrote:"Principal #1: No prerequisites exist for participation in our community."

Are you saying that attendance should be free?
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Re: Principal #1

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:42 pm

5280MeV wrote:The way I see it, these are a group of artists who created a unique festive event out of a bonfire party in the desert, and a culture grew around the event. Although clearly not the same, one can compare these social bonds to the krewes that comprise Mardi Gras. Burning Man was a unique and new sort of event, and in order to help foster the creation of similar events they tried to make a list of the cultural values that emerged in the context of the event, as a guide or covenant for related events to follow or aspire to.

I find this an interesting comparison. I don't know much about krewes (think "index card; one side") but I tend to believe that everything "burn" is working from elements that are already in existance, just used in the context of this situation. Of course, the samba clubs in Rio would be another varient.
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Re: Principal #1

Postby Herring » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:09 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Happy Ash Wednesday. (Hmmm. Maybe that's a wrong sentiment...)


Remember thou art dust and to dust thou shalt return (hopefully).
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Re: Principal #1

Postby ZaphodBurner » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:14 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
5280MeV wrote:The way I see it, these are a group of artists who created a unique festive event out of a bonfire party in the desert, and a culture grew around the event. Although clearly not the same, one can compare these social bonds to the krewes that comprise Mardi Gras. Burning Man was a unique and new sort of event, and in order to help foster the creation of similar events they tried to make a list of the cultural values that emerged in the context of the event, as a guide or covenant for related events to follow or aspire to.

I find this an interesting comparison. I don't know much about krewes (think "index card; one side") but I tend to believe that everything "burn" is working from elements that are already in existance, just used in the context of this situation. Of course, the samba clubs in Rio would be another varient.
Happy Ash Wednesday. (Hmmm. Maybe that's a wrong sentiment...)


Yes!

Mardi Gras is a centuries-old tradition that involved families and entire communities. It's free to all. Hucking beads, toys and other "throws" from the floats showers parade-goers with gifts with no expectation in return but a smile and a wave. (When the krewes were forced to allow people to buy their way in, the "SHOW YOUR TITS" guys started showing up.) Girls Gone Wild and Snoop Dogg went to NOLA, and now most people one talks to think Mardi Gras is about beads and tits, and that Bourbon Street is named after a beverage. For those people, two centuries of history and parade tradition amounts to an impediment to traffic and a reason their rental car got towed.
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