Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Oso » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:52 pm

Great posting, bradtem. It is possible.

.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Eric » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:41 pm

Oso wrote:Great posting, bradtem. It is possible.

.
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible"
- The number of scientists and engineers who confidently stated that heavier-than-air flight was impossible in the run-up to the Wright brothers' flight is too large to count. Lord Kelvin is probably the best-known.


No one doubts the possibility of adding lanes, it's quite possible. It is, however, highly improbable, which is completely different.

Look, most of us would love to see the capacity of the event increase so more people could attend (well, honestly I would love it even more if only 50,000 people or less wanted to attend, but that ain't happening); the reality is that we now need to look at useful solutions for the ticketing- all the while remembering that "fair" doesn't equal "everyone gets a ticket", sadly. Dreaming of spending millions of other peoples money to fix a road to our party is a little selfish, IMHO.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby ygmir » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:47 pm

Eric wrote:
Oso wrote:Great posting, bradtem. It is possible.

.
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible"
- The number of scientists and engineers who confidently stated that heavier-than-air flight was impossible in the run-up to the Wright brothers' flight is too large to count. Lord Kelvin is probably the best-known.


No one doubts the possibility of adding lanes, it's quite possible. It is, however, highly improbable, which is completely different.

Look, most of us would love to see the capacity of the event increase so more people could attend (well, honestly I would love it even more if only 50,000 people or less wanted to attend, but that ain't happening); the reality is that we now need to look at useful solutions for the ticketing- all the while remembering that "fair" doesn't equal "everyone gets a ticket", sadly. Dreaming of spending millions of other peoples money to fix a road to our party is a little selfish, IMHO.


*stands behind Eric, nodding in agreement*
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby bradtem » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:54 pm

We could not expect too much of other people's money. The event is large enough, and the added revenue from extra attendees high enough, that changes to road structure could be justified entirely within the BM budget -- if the NVDOT would agree, since they would get an implicit duty to maintain it if BMOrg flaked out in the future. However, it's also true that others would benefit from certain road changes and might be convinced to contribute to them.

I mean, what paid to pave 34 all the way up into high rock? The number of cars per year on that stretch is probably only modesty greater than the number Burning Man puts on the stretch from 9 mile to Gerlach in a year.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby JStep » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:58 pm

Eric wrote:Dreaming of spending millions of other peoples money to fix a road to our party is a little selfish, IMHO.


Now now Eric, don't jump to conclusions. I assume you're referring to my post above, and I never said anything about spending "other people's" money. I mentioned the possibility that private entities can (and do- like, all the time) donate funds to help with a public works type project when the ends are beneficial to both parties.

Reel it back in, partner.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby junglesmacks » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:42 pm

JStep wrote:
Eric wrote:Dreaming of spending millions of other peoples money to fix a road to our party is a little selfish, IMHO.


Now now Eric, don't jump to conclusions. I assume you're referring to my post above, and I never said anything about spending "other people's" money. I mentioned the possibility that private entities can (and do- like, all the time) donate funds to help with a public works type project when the ends are beneficial to both parties.

Reel it back in, partner.



I'm in agreement with JStep that yes.. there may be ways to privately fund a road widening.. assuming of course that the tribal lands that it passes through would let it happen.. along with environmental impact statements, etc etc etc.

But.. the other half of the equation is still the actual playa and the (perceived) environmental impact that tens of thousands of people have on an ecosystem. Assuming that the BLM would take the road widening into consideration, there is still a set number that the event cannot and would not be allowed to grow past. I don't care how you dice it.. allowing the event to grow to something like 250k just isn't feasible.

So let's hypothetically say that we found a way to widen 447 and/or the surrounding roadways to a respectable capacity. I would venture to say that even with all of that.. I personally couldn't see the BLM allowing more than around 110k-120k to participate. That would bring us to something of Glastonbury proportions which is.. wow.. talk about a clusterfuck. That's a LOT of people. There comes a point where we would have to ask.. do we even WANT an event of that magnitude or beyond? At what point does the amount of people become a detraction?

With the rates of growth and the event, even at 120k.. I say that we could hit THAT population cap within 7 years.. tops.. if not sooner. That would be right around the time that an actual road project would be finished even if we started right this second with the permitting, etc.

We would be right here again.. now with a mega event.. complaining all over again about ticket scarcity and now what do we do.


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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby maxtov » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:50 pm

After having read bunch of posts on ticket issue... but wait, the disclaimer first - everything below is IMHO of course.

From what I understood, one of the main problems is the road. After all it can take only so many cars in so much time.

One of the approaches would be to reduce number of cars, or, in other words stuff more people in one vehicle. That takes us to... introduction of another kind of tickets - bus ticket, the holder of which can enter BRC on bus only.
Pickup can be organized in Reno, so same bus would be able to make few runs per day.
Might take some pain to organize it, but compared to saving disappointment to the number of people who otherwise were not able to get in - could to be worth a try.
Pricing is a separate issue, could be a bit more expensive to cover bus costs, but still cheaper than car rental, gas and such.
Could be specially useful to folks joining large camps with most of the infrastructure taken care of.

Taking this idea to the next level, car/van pool tickets could be considered - say a ticket with large and bold 4 stamped on it would mean that the proud owner has to share his/her vehicle with at least 3 more people. Understood, that this idea would have a bit less chance to fly in terms of enforcement, but combined with "early pass" (see below) might have a shot.

Another approach would be to stretch period of time to get in - something known as "early pass" - give more of these out, people would love to come early, I would take it anytime.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby JStep » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:56 pm

junglesmacks wrote: the other half of the equation is still the actual playa and the (perceived) environmental impact that tens of thousands of people have on an ecosystem. Assuming that the BLM would take the road widening into consideration, there is still a set number that the event cannot and would not be allowed to grow past.


Absolutely agreed. I only put forth the post because I've seen so many times the issue framed as "The problem is the highway, not the playa, and there's no possible way for the community to address the highway problem." which really isn't the case. (There's no easy way to do it, but there are ways to get a highway built, including funding from private entities.)

Not that that's ever going to happen, but like I said... "food for thought."
Last edited by JStep on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Zeke Chaparral wrote:I take it not many people here have been to hajj. They are going to build a train that goes to Mecca for the sole purpose of the pilgrimage.

Okay. Few of us are of the appropriate religion to be allowed to go on hajj.
And
We are talking about an oil-rich country which can make that sort of choice, the combination of money and political power and religious duty is very powerful--and we can't make that a claim to have that by orders of magnitude.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:15 pm

JStep wrote:
Eric wrote:Dreaming of spending millions of other peoples money to fix a road to our party is a little selfish, IMHO.


Now now Eric, don't jump to conclusions. I assume you're referring to my post above, and I never said anything about spending "other people's" money. I mentioned the possibility that private entities can (and do- like, all the time) donate funds to help with a public works type project when the ends are beneficial to both parties.

Reel it back in, partner.

JStep, you might not be aware that road-widening has been proposed in multiple threads in this subforum. It's possible that Eric really wasn't talking to you, as much as the idea that has been propose in general.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby 5280MeV » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:30 pm

Burning Man is already mind-bogglingly huge. Maybe it gets smaller looking after a few years, but I don't think that it would have been any less mind-bogglingly gigantic if it had been half the size it was in 2011. How much less mind boggling would it be if our galaxy "only" had 100 billion stars, rather than 200-400 billion.

It just doesn't make sense that everyone on Earth is supposed to do this at the same place at the same time. I mean, there is something really special about the playa, but surely we can do this in other biomes, or at least in other deserts?

I am currently conspiring with a few friends to start a theme camp at Alchemy in Georgia this October. We are relatively new burners (2009 and later), but it is hard both financially and environmentally to try and build infrastructure 2000 miles away. It is really exciting to plan for a place that we can simply hop in the car and drive down to in under five hours.

Didn't everyone hate the bigger city layout a few years ago?

Doesn't the real solution ultimately have to be not associating ones hobby/obsession/art form with a single event? This is what I was kind of thinking when I decided to just run with it and let myself become obsessed with Burning Man - it can't just be about Burning Man, it simply has to be possible to do this in more than one place.

Maybe it feels different for people who have been doing this for longer, but the message that I am getting is "Playa full - go burn elsewhere"
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby JStep » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:32 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
JStep wrote:
Eric wrote:Dreaming of spending millions of other peoples money to fix a road to our party is a little selfish, IMHO.


Now now Eric, don't jump to conclusions. I assume you're referring to my post above, and I never said anything about spending "other people's" money. I mentioned the possibility that private entities can (and do- like, all the time) donate funds to help with a public works type project when the ends are beneficial to both parties.

Reel it back in, partner.

JStep, you might not be aware that road-widening has been proposed in multiple threads in this subforum. It's possible that Eric really wasn't talking to you, as much as the idea that has been propose in general.


Thanks Fishy. Maybe that was it. :P
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby ygmir » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:35 pm

well, that and so much of this speculation, and the proposals, though "possible" are impractical and "not going to happen"........we might as well propose a monorail, from Wadsworth, running a loop so we can have a train every 15 mins.
yeah, possible, but..............
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:39 pm

Hoverbikes.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby moonrise » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:40 pm

ygmir wrote:well, that and so much of this speculation, and the proposals, though "possible" are impractical and "not going to happen"........we might as well propose a monorail, from Wadsworth, running a loop so we can have a train every 15 mins.
yeah, possible, but..............


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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby ygmir » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:43 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Hoverbikes.
This solution endorsed by Simon of the Playa, Liz Estrada, Roberto Dobbisano and sundry others.


you know this will devolve into a "locking your hoverbike, who gets to use the green ones, and for how long, how do we catch thieves", discussion.


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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby 48_love » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:47 pm

We'll know BMORG is truly connected when they get past the 'road' thing.

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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:50 pm

ygmir wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Hoverbikes.
This solution endorsed by Simon of the Playa, Liz Estrada, Roberto Dobbisano and sundry others.


you know this will devolve into a "locking your hoverbike, who gets to use the green ones, and for how long, how do we catch thieves", discussion.

You're right... Sorry.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby 48_love » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:58 pm

is burning man a hoverbike theft culture ... am i crossing threads?
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:07 pm

Yes, burningman is a hoverbike theft culture, because I came back from the playa in 2011 without my hoverbike!
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Eric » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:20 pm

JStep wrote:Thanks Fishy. Maybe that was it. :P


Fishy is correct- I was referring to tax dollars.

I know there's some rich Burners out there, but finding enough to get a private foundation to fund 90 miles of highway that crosses tribal land?? Honestly, I didn't take this proposal as being high on the "probable" chart (nothing personal, I just tend to be a realist on things like this).
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby A Jester » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:47 pm

stretch80 wrote:I have recently decided that I needed to step up and not just shoot other eplayian's ideas down. Maybe offer suggestions of my own.


Good on ya.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Trishntek » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:57 pm

It's time for the Gene Roddenberry archives to be opened and the spec sheet for the Star Trek Transporter to be released.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby Rice » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:59 pm

Trishntek wrote:It's time for the Gene Roddenberry archives to be opened and the spec sheet for the Star Trek Transporter to be released.
Image "Transporting really is the safest way to travel."
- Geordi La Forge, 2369

I used to own the Tech Manual from the original series. Not nearly enough details for my liking....
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby BBadger » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:14 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
Zeke Chaparral wrote:I take it not many people here have been to hajj. They are going to build a train that goes to Mecca for the sole purpose of the pilgrimage.

Okay. Few of us are of the appropriate religion to be allowed to go on hajj.
And
We are talking about an oil-rich country which can make that sort of choice, the combination of money and political power and religious duty is very powerful--and we can't make that a claim to have that by orders of magnitude.


Rich country or not, when the task of visiting a city is one of the five pillars of a religion for over one billion people people are going to find a way to create transportation infrastructure for it--even if there wasn't money to be made in the process. Now that "Christian Bypass," that is an extravagant expense, but I guess there is no price too high to keep infidels out.
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Re: Not enough space on the playa.... really?!

Postby junglesmacks » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:22 am

ROADS??

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Where we're going we don't need.. roads.
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