ticket situation

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Re: ticket situation

Postby junglesmacks » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:32 pm

Person 4 thinks shots are in order.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby vargaso » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:38 pm

BBadger wrote:
You entirely miss the point Vargaso. WHOOOOSH. It flew completely over your head. Let me spell it out for you:

(1) Person 1 suggests some action A
(2) Person 2 suggests Person 1 has intent X because of action A
(3) Person 3 claims that Person 2 would ridicule Person 1 given action A

Tell me how is Person 3's claim is related to (2)?

The story gets better too!

(4) Person 3 uses "tu quoque" as a retort.


Because in my admittedly tu quoque retort was the concept that missing a 48-hour registration window was, perhaps, not so self-reliant. My intent in having such a window is not necessarily to limit registrants but to simplify and shorten the process. If that happens to also limit the number of registrants, then so be it. I do see now where you were more concerned with Person A's intent.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby dannylauda » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:40 pm

BBadger wrote:You entirely miss the point Vargaso. WHOOOOSH. It flew completely over your head. Let me spell it out for you:

(1) Person 1 suggests some action A
(2) Person 2 suggests Person 1 has intent X because of action A
(3) Person 3 claims that Person 2 would ridicule Person 1 given action A

Tell me how is Person 3's claim is related to (2)?

The story gets better too!

(4) Person 3 uses "tu quoque" as a retort.


you sound quite damaged and surrounded by conspiracies...
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Re: ticket situation

Postby mshaman » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:06 pm

I don't really want to get into pissing off person 1, 2, 3, or 4, (although I could use a shot, too) but I would like to comment on the original post.

My feeling is that if tickets had been first-come-first-serve this year, but were non-transferable, that the vast majority of returning burners would have gotten a ticket. So that part I'm down with. Without the gambling, hoarding, and scalping due to artificially increase demand, 70% or 80% of us might have gotten tickets. There is still not enough supply, granted, but I feel pretty clearly that it would be the most rational way to align the interests of stakeholders (ticket buyers) with the interests of the organization, because it discourages scalping and hoarding. That part I've expressed repeatedly.

I think a lottery in any form is a terrible idea.

I think that discriminating against newbies is a terrible idea. (in a rational year, not 2012 where terrible policy decisions required a reactive over-correction to restore any continuity)

I also think that it will be 2014 before the ticket process really gets smoothed out, assuming the Org is on its game:
The Org is doing fire-fighting from here 'till the burn on this issue, and it just trying to survive the chaos this year. Tickets for 2013 will go on sale only about 4 months after the cataclysm of 2012 ticket policy is concluded. 4 months isn't enough time to rework everything from the ground up and implement it smoothly. Given the Org's I.T. track-record, I'm still expecting lots of process/implementation problems/server crashes in 2013. So while we can expect the hemorrhaging to stop in 2013, 2014 is my first expectation of normalcy, whatever the new normalcy shapes up to be.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:47 pm

I love it that 1c1s is "luck of the draw" and a lottery isn't.

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Re: ticket situation

Postby BBadger » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:06 am

vargaso wrote:Because in my admittedly tu quoque retort was the concept that missing a 48-hour registration window was, perhaps, not so self-reliant. My intent in having such a window is not necessarily to limit registrants but to simplify and shorten the process. If that happens to also limit the number of registrants, then so be it. I do see now where you were more concerned with Person A's intent.


That's really great Vargaso, but honestly I don't care. Why are you even bothering to explain something so unrelated and irrelevant to my original reply, or any subsequent reply thereafter? I wasn't talking about self-reliance and the 48-hour window, admonishments or not. That was you in your ad hominem. Somehow that misdirecting lamprey-subject has caught hold and you keep feeding it.

If you want to complain about what people may admonish as not "self-reliant" make a clean break. That subject certainly didn't originate from here.

dannylauda wrote:
BBadger wrote:You entirely miss the point Vargaso. WHOOOOSH. It flew completely over your head. Let me spell it out for you:


you sound quite damaged and surrounded by conspiracies...


Thank you for your extremely valuable contribution to this discussion. :roll:
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Re: ticket situation

Postby trilobyte » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:50 am

@mshaman - unfortunately, that would not have been workable. First come first serve is something they can manage for STEP, where the numbers are likely to remain a relatively small percentage of the ticket supply and they can compensate for the increase with box office staffing. But doing 53K+ tickets that was is beyond the capacity of the gate and road infrastructure. Had it been possible, though, you'd still be looking at a situation where at least half (if not more) of those who wanted to attend did not get tickets. Theme camps would still have been decimated, though there would be no remaining secondary sale to cancel (because the tickets would simply be gone). And so far the data we've seen (ticket listings, STEP ticket contributions, friends struggling to find campmates sitting on additional tickets) doesn't seem to support that scalpers and hoarders got a significant chunk of the ticket supply (let alone the majority of what was sold, as some have suggested).
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Re: ticket situation

Postby dannylauda » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:52 am

BBadger wrote:Thank you for your extremely valuable contribution to this discussion.

yes a stupid discussion that you started.....
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:33 am

Ban Motorhomes! This would free up tickets and significantly reduce BM's carbon footprint. I'm sorry to those that think they need 'em out there, but not sorry for the reasons you may think. I'm not saying everyone in a motorhome isn't burny, but the burniest wouldn't need motorhomes. Note: A modified school bus or cement truck or any other creative and inspirational artcar type motorhome is not to be included in this working definition of "motorhomes". Just an idea to promote degentrification.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby Rice » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:49 am

B the B wrote:Ban Motorhomes! This would free up tickets and significantly reduce BM's carbon footprint. I'm sorry to those that think they need 'em out there, but not sorry for the reasons you may think. I'm not saying everyone in a motorhome isn't burny, but the burniest wouldn't need motorhomes. Note: A modified school bus or cement truck or any other creative and inspirational artcar type motorhome is not to be included in this working definition of "motorhomes". Just an idea to promote degentrification.

How would banning Motorhomes increase the population cap that the BLM set? Would that keep tickets out out the hands of scalpers??

Please explain?
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:00 am

No, and no. However anyone that would not go to burning man unless they had air conditioning and a fridge will have to either be very resourceful and creative, or will not buy a ticket. That guy who runs the company that designed the electric sports car rented EIGHT luxury motorhomes fully stocked, with a paid crew to take care of everything for him and his friends while they "burned". This is the trend that looks very ugly to me for the future of burning man. Money is becoming a part of the equation in spite if the Burning Man ideals.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:17 am

So let me see if I have this straight: You mention, without cites to back up your contention, that one party had the red carpet treatment so therefore none of the rest of several thousand people, many of whom are asthmatics, have special physical needs, or at a station in life where the desert could have deleterious effects, should be banned? Why don't you go piss up a rope you festering pile of...well, you get the picture, dickhead.

Oh, and in case you're simply too stupid to figure this out, which would not surprise me in the least bit, I'm against your idea. B the B? What does that stand for, Bite the Big one?
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Re: ticket situation

Postby Eric » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:24 am

I love all the "solutions" that involve excluding someone (anyone) that the poster doesn't like.

If "we" just exclude "ravers" or "hippies" or "people in rv's" or "old people" or "young people" or "people who don't own their own home" or "people who haven't been to x-amount of Burns" or "have been to x-amount" and on and on..., suddenly the Burn will be saved- by destroying it.

People are no longer looking for a "fair" way to deal with tickets- they're looking for the way that gives them an advantage.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby Rice » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:32 am

B the B wrote:No, and no. However anyone that would not go to burning man unless they had air conditioning and a fridge will have to either be very resourceful and creative, or will not buy a ticket. That guy who runs the company that designed the electric sports car rented EIGHT luxury motorhomes fully stocked, with a paid crew to take care of everything for him and his friends while they "burned". This is the trend that looks very ugly to me for the future of burning man. Money is becoming a part of the equation in spite if the Burning Man ideals.

Burning Man is a inclusive environment. Having money and wanting to be comfortable does not necessarily mean that they have nothing to give burning man.

Your way of burning is not the RIGHT way, just A way.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:43 am

Ah the Doc, I knew my post would get your feathers ruffled. I know, I know, how the hell else are you gonna get all those creative Barbies to the desert floor? The desert, a harsh environment indeed, may not be the place to go camping for an asthmatic, or special needs, or those prone to deleteriosness. Perhaps I could offer some suggestions if indeed motorhomes ever became banned, for those that do need special treatment and cannot go without creature comforts. If it happens simply message me, I can think of a good dozen solutions just off the top of my head. You get so so defensive when this subject comes up, I wonder why? I don't need to cite anything, anyone who's been out there knows the type I'm talking about. I'm thinking of ideas to counter the dilemma we are faced with, and how to save BRC from becoming yet just another playground for the wealthy. Forgive me for sticking up for the proletariat, it's what I do. Oh and don't forget your vacuum cleaner. Leaving your motorhome home does not an exclusion make.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:52 am

B the B wrote:I can think of a good dozen solutions just off the top of my head.

Anyone can claim to think of a good dozen solutions to any problem, but unless he posts two or three, it's going to look like hot air.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:16 pm

lol hot air, clever fishy.

Off the top of my head:
Oxy tent
Enclosed art car
Tipi (surprisingly efficient in terms of airflow, shelter and cooling/warming)
Bubble boy! (Im so doing this now that i thought of it)
breathing apparatus
enclosed golf cart/art car
Space suit (would look pretty cool out there no?)
Yurt
Hexayurt
Geodesic dome
Car
bubble bicycle! (admittedly, this last one may take some crack engineering)
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Re: ticket situation

Postby bradtem » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:38 pm

trilobyte wrote:@mshaman - unfortunately, that would not have been workable. First come first serve is something they can manage for STEP, where the numbers are likely to remain a relatively small percentage of the ticket supply and they can compensate for the increase with box office staffing. But doing 53K+ tickets that was is beyond the capacity of the gate and road infrastructure. Had it been possible, though, you'd still be looking at a situation where at least half (if not more) of those who wanted to attend did not get tickets. Theme camps would still have been decimated, though there would be no remaining secondary sale to cancel (because the tickets would simply be gone). And so far the data we've seen (ticket listings, STEP ticket contributions, friends struggling to find campmates sitting on additional tickets) doesn't seem to support that scalpers and hoarders got a significant chunk of the ticket supply (let alone the majority of what was sold, as some have suggested).


I'm not sure his point is invalid. Non-trasferable tickets are less desirable to most buyers, not simply to scalpers. If that's the rule, you don't buy tickets for unspecified friends that you will pick later. You only buy tickets for people who are committed to go at the time of the sale. This is true in particular if there is not a full refund available, so that you are discouraged from buying tickets "just in case" you might need them. As such, it's not out of the question that had tickets come with no transfer ability and a $75 refund penalty, the main sale would not have sold out. Past history has shown that a fair proportion of those who end up going make their decision to go by January -- though in the past they were never pushed hard on that. But the plain fact is that such a ticket (no-transfer, partial refund) is a less valuable commodity than a ticket which you can transfer and even sell at list value for sure and at a fat profit if you desire to. Much less valuable. And less valuable means less demand -- zero demand from scalpers of course, but that's only part of the point which is less demand from burners.

In the end, unless you're going to have a lottery -- and I hope we've learned a bunch of lessons as to why not to do a lottery, or why 1c1s is not too unlike a lottery -- something has to reduce demand.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby gyre » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:44 pm

B the B wrote:No, and no. However anyone that would not go to burning man unless they had air conditioning and a fridge will have to either be very resourceful and creative, or will not buy a ticket. That guy who runs the company that designed the electric sports car rented EIGHT luxury motorhomes fully stocked, with a paid crew to take care of everything for him and his friends while they "burned". This is the trend that looks very ugly to me for the future of burning man. Money is becoming a part of the equation in spite if the Burning Man ideals.

Which electric sports car?

I'm guessing you haven't heard of luxury safaris?
No rvs.


I am a little baffled as to how 'all inclusive' and 'sold out' work together.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby graidawg » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:58 pm

Eric wrote:I love all the "solutions" that involve excluding someone (anyone) that the poster doesn't like.

If "we" just exclude "ravers" or "hippies" or "people in rv's" or "old people" or "young people" or "people who don't own their own home" or "people who haven't been to x-amount of Burns" or "have been to x-amount" and on and on..., suddenly the Burn will be saved- by destroying it.

People are no longer looking for a "fair" way to deal with tickets- they're looking for the way that gives them an advantage.



post of the week.


Dr. Pyro wrote:So let me see if I have this straight: You mention, without cites to back up your contention, that one party had the red carpet treatment so therefore none of the rest of several thousand people, many of whom are asthmatics, have special physical needs, or at a station in life where the desert could have deleterious effects, should be banned? Why don't you go piss up a rope you festering pile of...well, you get the picture, dickhead.

Oh, and in case you're simply too stupid to figure this out, which would not surprise me in the least bit, I'm against your idea. B the B? What does that stand for, Bite the Big one?


yep doc you are annoyed.
and rightly so.

if you arent aware, barbie death camp is

a.) the most welcoming enviroment a virging to Bm could ask for , low (very low) camp dues, an infrastrucure that means whatever you forget BDC can make up for it, extremely friendly, well located and run enoug events you never need to leave but no demands on an individual

b.) fucking well run (for a dictatorship{sorry doc it is}) this camp organises everything, we do everything we can to make things easier for other people. why else does every single article written at BM mention BDC by name

c.) doc organises all of this. every single thing. he delegates what he can to people that will get it done if but if it falls apart Doc sorts it out. every new member gets vetted by someone he knows and trusts.

so if doc pyro wants to spend some of his money on an Rv - which he uses to help many other people to get to the playa, brings water and vittles and then uses as storage for the many many things BDC hosts and provides for - you have no cause for complaint.

i am sure there are other camps that have other RV campers who do just as much. so if you want to ban anything ban the fucko's who whine about how burning man is unfair.


on a side note i want to say how pleased i am that the whole ticket storm has quited down a bit now, and that i am starting to see real questions asked by some of the many virgins coming this year who cant find the answer because of the 10 zillion pointless ticket whine threads. without eplaya i would not have had last year.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:28 pm

Tesla Motors, the man's name is Elon Musk, he's like the real life Tony Stark (Ironman).
Luxury Safaris eh? Sounds fun, but you lost me as far as what that has to do with Burning Man.
I'm baffled too. ><

As for BDC, I'm pretty certain that not every damn article written at BM mentions it's name, hahaha. That's funny.

I for one could give a flying fuck about Doc or his RV, or any RV's and what their owners do or do not do. I happen to find them silly, that's just me. My suggestion to you: if you don't like threads about tickets, then don't visit them. RV's and their owners are 2 totally different things, by the way. Nothing in life is fair, thats just a given. I'm glad you love BDC and I'm sure it's awesome. Preserve that radical self sufficiancy as much as you can, it's a great value to have not just in the desert but in life as well.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby feistypenguin » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:38 pm

edit: deleted previous bitching to replace with a productive suggestion.

I think that right after the event is over this year, it would be a good idea to shoot out surveys and polls asking people:
  1. How they got their tickets (initial sale, STEP, friends/campmates, craigslist, scalpers)
  2. How early did they acquire their tickets before the event
  3. How much they spent per ticket
  4. Did they register multiple times to increase their odds in the lottery (people may lie here, but some will come clean)

This would be very informative in figuring out how tickets were distributed through the community.
Last edited by feistypenguin on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby ZaphodBurner » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:49 pm

People are just upset because of the increase in -undecorated- RVs and, factually, the increase in "all-inclusive burning man packages" featuring fully-stocked RVs.

Our camp's RV is a Dolphin. A fucking 4-banger. In 2005, our view of the man was blocked by two-deep WALL of touring coaches. We were kind of pissed. Then some dude came out of one in marching band gear and started blowing his horn. They were the Stanford guys from The Glom, and absolutely wonderful neighbors. (Our castle was just high enough to see over the top of their coaches.)

In 2008 we had a wall of coaches occupying the corner of 8:00 and A, totally unlit, and when you went by A STREET you heard their AC and generator units. Apparently, they had a chef, masseuse and all kinds of shit inside their camp for anybody who ventured in, but, the guy with the WELCOME sign or whatever must not have showed up. They were awesome people when we finally met them, on Sunday. They gave us a canvas bag with the Man embroidered on it that they had made in their clothing factory in Vietnam. Get my drift? It occurs to me that our prized Burning Man gift was probably made by third-world teenagers who will never get an opportunity to be radically included into Black Rock City.

But I have to reiterate that they were very nice people. They had no idea of what to expect until they got there, but, who does?!

What people are saying is, LOTS of "real" burners use RVs purposefully. LOTS of others do not, which I recognize as "the problem with RVs." OUR job, as veteran burners, is not to exclude the latter but to lead by example and to transform their understanding while we have their undivided attention in the desert.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby trilobyte » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:58 pm

@bradtem - even under those terms, the event would have sold out on day 1. There was a ridiculous and fairly unexpected spike in demand from people who actually want to come to Burning Man. That's why you haven't seen it raining tickets either in the scalper market, through friends/campmate networks, or via STEP.

@B the B - you don't have to like them, but RV's aren't going to be banned anytime soon.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:10 pm

I know! WTF!!!!!!!

Whether I am there or not I just can't stand the thought of BRC culture disappearing into a cloud of coke and Dom. Something must be done. RV's? Nothing wrong with them. The playa becoming nothing more then a giant RV park where everything is free and there's a big fire at the end? Breaks my heart.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby gyre » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:55 pm

B the B wrote:Tesla Motors, the man's name is Elon Musk, he's like the real life Tony Stark (Ironman).
Luxury Safaris eh? Sounds fun, but you lost me as far as what that has to do with Burning Man.
I'm baffled too. ><

Luxury safaris can involve tents nicer than most homes, and often include catered 5 star food in very remote locations.

Banning rvs would have no effect on concierged camping, other than making it more exclusive, maybe more desirable.

I'm familiar with Tesla.
I think they are responsible for some mvs.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby B the B » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:11 pm

Ok, now I see the link. You are right, there would still be concierge camping, but not everybody who would otherwise be in a motorhome would hire a service like that, at least I hope not. Even then it would at least change the landscape for the better. I know it's not THE solution by any means, but there's got to be a discussion about steps that could be taken toward the direction that everybody would like to see this event go, besides in the shitter. Change happens, theres always a solution. Banning RV's is far safer then my second suggestion; bring back firearms, abolish the speed limit, ban blinkies, glowsticks, headlamps and elwire, and stop selling ice and coffee, all in the same year :)
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Re: ticket situation

Postby vargaso » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:38 pm

I think we should ban everyone NOT bringing an RV. I'm so tired of having to brush up against those dusty people or having their furtive couplings forced upon me behind thin sheets of nylon as I stroll past their shanties. Also, their beer is always warm from lack of proper refrigeration.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby Wrath » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:47 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:OUR job, as veteran burners, is not to exclude the latter but to lead by example

Most definitely.
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Re: ticket situation

Postby BBadger » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:25 pm

B the B wrote:I know! WTF!!!!!!!

Whether I am there or not I just can't stand the thought of BRC culture disappearing into a cloud of coke and Dom. Something must be done. RV's? Nothing wrong with them. The playa becoming nothing more then a giant RV park where everything is free and there's a big fire at the end? Breaks my heart.


Burnier troll is burnier.

Burning Man "culture" has nothing to do with the creature comforts people choose to bring for the their week on the playa, nor any other ridiculous, arbitrary thresholds concocted by clueless, burnier-pretentiousness-than-thou morons who infect this event and forum.
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