Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Smenkare » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:18 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
jkisha wrote:I think your grandfather would be ashamed of you right now.


You don't know fuck about my grandfather. You don't speak for him.

lucky420 wrote:Was thinking about visiting Portland this summer if I don't go to the playa, now not so sure...


A million people or so in the metropolitan area are NOT victims of crime each day. It is an unfortunate fact that you must be cautious on the MAX. Portland is a wonderful city with a large Burner community.

smenkare wrote:How did your grandfather get out of the POW camp BTW? Did he lead a rebellion of inmates and slaves, and overthrow the guards?
I hope that's a legitimate question and not snark.

He was rescued by Patton's army, who liberated the camp as soon as they heard about it. He was left at the camp because he and three other "kriegies" who had not eaten for days captured and ate a chicken raw. The other three died, and the Germans took him to KZ Mauthausen, expecting him to die. A couple of days later, before the army showed up, a jew marching to his own disposal looked over him and said "Cheer up, yank, you'll be home soon" and an SS guard shot the man in the head and let the dogs have the body. The next day, the SS all fled, leaving the dogs to roam among the camp and fend for themselves. The dogs were the only source of food, and he managed to capture, kill and eat one that had been eating the dying prisoners.

When he was liberated he was 6'1" and weighed 79lbs. It would not have been possible for him to overthrow the guards. He died in 1995 from organic destruction caused by severe malnutrition, complicated by Hepatitis C that he got from a VA blood transfusion. All for having to go fight to save some pacifists.

@wraith: GOOD POINT!


If the only legitimate question is a question you don't know the answer of, then yes, it's a ligitimate question. But I suspected that the answer was "no" your grandfather didn't lead a rebellion against his captors and that he was freed by other means, and so to that affect, yes, there was sarcasm intended. But that doesn't mean that I didn't legitimately want to know you're grandfather's story, and it doesn't take away from the story at all. I'd gladly hear more of your grandfather's story. Stories are important to my people. It's how we transmitted our culture and traditions for gennerations.

A couple hundred years ago, my people were many. We lived life on our terms on our father's land. Then someone invaded, told us it wasn't our land anymore and that we were to take up a new religion, new language and new culture.
We rose up and said NO, we fought to defend ourselves.
We were beaten back, many were killed.
We were displaced from our homes.
Families were seperated.
Family members were killed.
Other bad things happened...
We were many then, and they were few, a few men with soldier's training, horses and weapons of war.
We were many and they were a few men with violence in their hearts.
And they did us violence.
After the violence, they reimbursed us with what they thought was fair (some money, a small piece of land, some "rights" to natural resources)
They put a price on our land.
They put a price my people.
They put a price on my grandad.
They put a price on me.
But I don't have to accept it in my heart.

That said:

If a trained soldier can be shot down
If he can have his weapon taken from him
If he can be imprisoned and starved to 79lbs
Then what of those with no weapons?
What of those with no training?
What of those with no organized resistance?
What of those who had been rounded up by their fellow country-men and sent to the camps?
Starved...
Demoralized...
Seperated from their families...

Why didn't the Japanese rise up in the internment camps here in the US?
Why didn't my people rise up again once subdued?

You told us why your grandfather didn't rise up because he physically couldn't.
A lot of people couldn't.
That's one of the functions of POW camps and Deathcamps, to make sure the prisoners stay there and don't rise up against their captors. To keep the many under the power of the few. Those tactics work, they've worked for centuries, and will probably continue to work so long as there are those willing to use intimidation and violence to get what they want.

My grandad served in the Pacific Theater. Shit was bad over there too.
But he came back, healed, and raised a family.

My grandad came back a pacifist. Pacificist =/= victim.

He taught me that the monsters have human faces just like we do, and that's the scariest part.
He taught me that though those who stood up to defend our people were brave, but they died and you can't raise children if you're dead. If all my people stood up against the invader back then, perhaps I wouldn't be here, perhaps my people would have faded from the memory of the world.
Grandad taught me that you never know how you'll react in any given situation until it happens to you and that no matter how bad something is, or how much someone hurts you and your loved ones, deep down at your core, the only REAL power anyone has over you is power that you give them, that you're only beaten when you submit your will to theirs, but it's a personal choice that every human has to make.

He also taught me that just because someone has something you want, doesn't mean that you should take it from them by threat or force, and then pay them what you deem as fair. That makes you the invader...that makes you the bully.

So I'll ask some non-sarcastic questions...

Does my sarcastic question make you angry? If yes, then why would you give me that power over you?
That which does not kill you makes you stranger.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:54 pm

Smenkare wrote:He also taught me that just because someone has something you want, doesn't mean that you should take it from them by threat or force, and then pay them what you deem as fair. That makes you the invader...that makes you the bully...

Does my sarcastic question make you angry? If yes, then why would you give me that power over you?


FANTASTIC reply! I am very curious. Your sarcastic question didn't make me angry but it might have because it sounded ignorant and disrespectful. I can make people here very angry, but I respect them so I try not to.

If people cheat against my community I will cheat to preserve it. Unfortunately, my wife and I tried to play fair and not game the system, and now, after being FUCKED by all of those who did, and being told to hang on, it'll work itself out, we're now told that through the STEP system we'll only be able to buy one ticket. All of those who entered with multiple credit cards and continued to the flood of requests will have that many tickets available to them assuming their turns come on STEP. The Org has already admitted that Burning Man 2010 favors cheaters, gamers, and people who buy tickets from these.

My entire life I've devoted myself to principles of fairness, cooperation and community spirit, and as all fiscally-responsible, fair-playing middle Americans know, all that happens for it is that you get screwed. BRC was a refuge from that, but, it was only a mirage. We have radically included cheaters, gamers, scammers and thieves into our community and people defend the idea that radically including assholes is more important than loyalty to the community.

How would the Bay Area community react if they were told that, in order to enter their city next year, they had to enter and win a lottery? Why should they feel entitled? There are only so many homes in the city, and they should stick to their principles of Radical Inclusiveness, right? Maybe "fresh blood" would make it better this year. It doesn't matter how much of a civic leader you are, or how much taxes you've paid for your community, or whether you're a convicted felon. All you need is a VISA card and a web browser and I PROMISE YOU, Bay Aryans are liberals and they always play fair so there's no need to worry; most San Francisco "veterans" will get to go HOME. Oh, and if you don't win the lottery there's a STEP program, but of course, only one member of your household will be allowed to return.

Don't know but regardless, I'm never going to try to just beat you up and take your ticket, which is what happened to kids my age when we were in high school. You had to be ready to defend yourself in downtown Portland because somebody would try to roll you if they THOUGHT you had tickets to a sold out show.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Marscrumbs » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:43 pm

Maybe we can all collectively sell our tickets for $5000 each to scalpers, and move our event to Australia this year.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Eric » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:53 pm

[MOD HAT OFF]

ZaphodBurners post equating the murder of millions of innocent people with a couple of scalpers selling tickets for over face value has me so unbelievably pissed that I've had to sit here debating if posting was even worth it. My Jewish grandparents lost entire branches of their families because they weren't able or lucky enough to get out of Europe in time, and my Grandparents were lucky enough that, as Jews in 1910, they were allowed into America.

Comparing that to someone "overcharging" you?? Blaming the fucking victims ("All for having to go fight to save some pacifists.") because an entire society hunted them down & killed them (and when they did escape and try to fight back, many, especially in anti-Semitic places like Poland, were killed by other partisans because they were Jews)??? They weren't pacifists- they were UNARMED CIVILIANS in a society that had been manipulated to hate them (have you ever heard of pograms? Jews were used to societies in Europe going temporarily crazy & using the full force of government and military against them; how were they supposed to know this was going to be different?)

Yet, somehow in your incredibly delusional mind, someone charging over face value for a ticket to a middle class vacation is equivalent to PEOPLE BEING MURDERED BY THE MILLIONS. Seriously dude, get professional help.

Honestly, I cannot express how unbelievably offensive this is. It's taking all my mental strength not to state this like I really want to, but, basically, go stuff yourself.

Oh- you also should learn some history: Jews & other inmates fought back at Treblinka and Sobibor, as well as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising; unarmed victims against incredible odds.; and thousands fought (and died) as partisans.

[MOD HAT ON]
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:02 pm

Eric wrote:[MOD HAT OFF]

ZaphodBurners post equating the murder of millions of innocent people with a couple of scalpers selling tickets for over face value has me so unbelievably pissed


Oh, what the fuck. Really? Do you really think that's ALL what I was doing?.

"Oh- you also should learn some history:"

Who did more to preserve the principles of democracy? Gandhi, or Leonidas? Don't know what I'm talking about? Look it up, Mr. Oh You Should Learn Some History. Renting "300" to stare at gorgeous men doesn't count.

"incredibly delusional mind, "
"seriously, dude. Get professional help."
""It's taking all my mental strength not to state this like I really want to, but, basically, go stuff yourself.""

I get it. You wanted to tell me FUCK YOU but you lacked the courage, so you're questioning my intelligence and my mental health instead.

You completely misinterpreted my argument and called me a bunch of names for it.

I WAS RESPONDING THE THE GANDHI QUOTE.
I was not equating ticket problems to the holocaust. EQUATING GANDHI'S PROBLEMS TO BURNING MAN TICKETS DOESN'T SEEM TO BOTHER YOU TOO MUCH. On the e-playa, you can pretty much say anything you want as long as it's what people want you to say. Otherwise, you see just how radically-inclusive of other people's ides they really are, don't you?

Now, for levity: I'M JUST SAYIN', IF JESUS HAD MIRACLED HIMSELF AN M-60 AND MARY MAGDELENE HAD BEEN A MARINE, WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO ENDURE TWO THOUSAND YEARS OF MIND CONTROL AND RELIGIOUS WARFARE OVER WHO WAS WHAT.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby trilobyte » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:23 pm

I'm not seeing the name-calling. Closest he came was in suggesting you have a delusional mind.

I had made a comment earlier about the holocaust comparison being inappropriate and insensitive, but moderated myself as I thought it was a bit redundant in the wake of the comment that followed. Whether it's nazis, India's plight, Darfur, DR Congo, or any other name-brand human rights issue, drawing comparisons to getting a ticket to Burning Man seems a bit ridiculous. Deep breaths, and remember, the bar's open. :)
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Eric » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:27 pm

I will defer to Trilobyte and take deep breaths.

However- Leonidas was an tyrant- an absolute monarch, Athens only allowed the vote to propertied Athenian males, and only some of them (oh, and they liked to cast votes to banish people who pissed them off), Athens was hated by other Greek city-states because they enslaved them & treated them like dirt; and the Persian Empire was much more sophisticated than any of the Greek city-states. There's a reason the "Golden Age" of Athens was less than 200 years.

Ghandi did much more to bring Democracy to 600,000,000 people than Leonidas ever did for Greece. There's a difference between propaganda & action.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:29 pm

trilobyte wrote:I'm not seeing the name-calling. Closest he came was in suggesting you have a delusional mind.

I had made a comment earlier about the holocaust comparison being inappropriate and insensitive, but moderated myself as I thought it was a bit redundant in the wake of the comment that followed. Whether it's nazis, India's plight, Darfur, DR Congo, or any other name-brand human rights issue, drawing comparisons to getting a ticket to Burning Man seems a bit ridiculous. Deep breaths, and remember, the bar's open. :)


Trilo, I don't believe discussing the Holocaust verses Gandhi's theory is comparing either to getting tickets at Burning Man. In fact, it's certainly not appropriate for this particular board discussion so I apologize for drifting off-topic.

I always though that if I'm going to have a lively, intelligent, respectful and challenging discussion about pacifism or violence, the Burning Man community would be the #1 place to expect to find it. I mean nobody disrespect and I try not to judge or condemn them for their feelings (unless they're scalpers. Fuck 'em) and I try to remember that sometimes people's thoughts don't come across the way they mean.

I would love to have this discussion with any and all of you... in the Politics and Philosophy section, where it belongs. I apologize to all who thought I was comparing my grandfather's experience in a concentration camp to buying scalped tickets, because that would be fucking ridiculous.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Eric » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:34 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:I would love to have this discussion with any and all of you... in the Politics and Philosophy section, where it belongs. I apologize to all who thought I was comparing my grandfather's experience in a concentration camp to buying scalped tickets, because that would be fucking ridiculous.


And I'll apologize for losing my calm & not PMing you for clarification first.

We all agree on the scalpers=scum thing, lets go back to that.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby ygmir » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:49 pm

oh you rascals!!
and here, I was just thinking it was violence, intellect, and instinct at play.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:59 pm

Eric wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:I would love to have this discussion with any and all of you... in the Politics and Philosophy section, where it belongs. I apologize to all who thought I was comparing my grandfather's experience in a concentration camp to buying scalped tickets, because that would be fucking ridiculous.


And I'll apologize for losing my calm & not PMing you for clarification first.

We all agree on the scalpers=scum thing, lets go back to that.


:D

I started a thread in Politics & Philosophy Open Discussion.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Colonel Monk » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:40 pm

ygmir wrote:WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
Because, someone "breaks the rules", or does something you don't like?

How about you run a red light, and a concerned citizen pulls you out of your car and beats you?

you want to meet them, with a weapon in hand (maybe not intending to use it, but, how would anyone know?), and say "I'd not hurt anyone or kill for it.
At the point you show up armed, you've escalated, and have lost control.

So, what are you going to do, when the scalper, (asking 500 bucks) lets you look at the ticket, you hand him 390, and he says "no"? It's his business, if he breaks the rules. But, if you take it, and not for an agreed sum, I'd bet the cops would side with the scalper. Not to mention, if you refuse to return it when asked, you may be committing a property crime (in the eyes of the police) and the scalper may well be justified in beating you, to get his property back.
Are you willing, to engage in physical, potentially deadly, confrontation?
If not, don't go there looking for it.

Violence? Really?

How about, as others suggest, get the numbers, ID, report them to the ORG to see what can be done.

Choose your battles wisely, IMHO.

How, are you, and your attendance, any more important, that the scalpers attempts, to do what he wants? Really, not just emotionally, but, it comes down, IMHO, to which of you is more "deserving"?

I'm not condoning scalping, in any way or form.
But, I am decrying the thought of harming others, for the sake of a few dollars (the difference between scalping and face value).

If a person is desperate to go, one has to decide where their morals and integrity end, to go.
I'd pay 100 bucks (over face value) or whatever, to not have a fight, hurt or get hurt, jail, or worse. But, you have to decide, if you want/need to go that bad.
Perhaps, the decision, is really yours (the Burner), as to, how far will I go, to attend?

It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.


Dude, chill the F out. What did I say up there in my Post? I think you took it too literally.

"No, I will not kill for it, nor really would I hurt anyone for it." That's what I said. I have a shillelagh, mostly because I've got a bad knee and so I need to limp sometimes...

Emotions are running high, I get it. Please don't think that I'm willing to really hurt someone for a ticket.

However, I may be willing to chance the law on this one. I don't like that people would exploit Bman to make some money, and they are causing us heartache - and I don't take kindly to this at all.

You might be completely right with your arguments, but I'll bet that amateur scalpers would just watch in disbelief as you walked away, and since they really aren't out of any money they probably wouldn't do a damn thing.

Having said that, if there really is a possibility to get that ticket cancelled on the spot, that would be awesome.

But if you think the scalpers response to you would be any more or less aggressive I think you'd be wrong. Why?

Because the outcome of the situation is exactly the same - they get their money back, but don't make any.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby Colonel Monk » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:53 pm

moonrise wrote:In addition to vigorous flagging; what about posting countless ads stating "ALL BURNING MAN TICKET ADS WILL BE FLAGGED INSTANTLY IF OFFERED FOR OVER FACE VALUE" all over CList where the tickets are being sold for over face value.

There are a bajillion pissed off burners just sitting at desk jobs and I have a feeling they'd all be more than happy to assist.

Simply drive the scalpers crazy with frustration.

is there a way to be alaerted of these ads on CList? If there is, I'd like to know...I have a desk type job....


Good evening Moonrise,

I believe there is. Though I've not done it personally, my old drummer used to set up alerts on CL via RSS feeds, and when those items come up it can send you an email or a text or whatever.

I love the idea of just preventing the scalpers an easy outlet for their crime. If we band together and stop them, next year they will think "it just not worth the hassle"...

I would really like to know though, what the Borg is capable of doing with regards to cancelling tickets, and also, would they consider a bounty for reported tickets? I could see them condoning the reporting of scalping, and offering an incentive to those who don't have a ticket would be awesome.
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby lucky420 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:44 pm

I could see them condoning the reporting of scalping, and offering an incentive to those who don't have a ticket would be awesome.



oh I think this would be the start of some type of witch hunt...
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Re: Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

Postby trilobyte » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:01 pm

I'm shutting this thread down, and leaving it with this...

While we frown upon scalping, it is legal in the state of Nevada (whose laws govern the event). Coordinating attacks of any kind could be considered either restraint of trade or harassment, we can have none of that here. Lynch mob threads (advocating any kind of coordinated attacks or harassment of scalpers) are not allowed on ePlaya. We also do not allow the posting of links to ticket sales or auctions on 3rd party sites. Even if your intention is to express shock and outrage, we really don't want to give any of those sites any more traffic.

I'll be putting together an announcement regarding scammers and scalpers in the next couple days. Apologies for the delay, but I need to make sure we're using the right language.
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