New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 2012

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:48 am

haolegolucky wrote:
nncoco wrote:
inthecolumbiagorge wrote:
Dave Matthews at the gorge for Labor day weekend is sounding mighty fine right about now!


Maybe Burning Man is not for you...


Oh thats right...Dubstep is the only acceptable music on the playa. He must have forgotten.
:roll:

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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri


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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby NathanLV » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:49 am

First off, I want to express my appreciation for the BMORG. They're doing their best in with a difficult situation. The simple fact is there is no solution that could have made everyone happy. That's just how life is sometimes.

I would like the BMORG to really consider, for 2013, whether it's REALLY necessary to work so hard to "preserve the culture". I don't think it is. I think if the org had just stuck with the lottery (or even the previous first-come, first-serve) system for distributing tickets that things would have worked themselves out. The event would have been different, but is that so bad?

Personally, I don't agree with the latest solution, because I don't think the problem the org is attempting to solve is actually a problem. The org and a lot of veteran burners apparently believe that if the big theme camps can't get enough tickets to fully staff their camps that the event will be crap. I think that premise is false. My experience is that the big camps aren't the ones that are the most fun. Impressive? Yes. Worthwhile? Absolutely. But all of my fondest Burning Man memories are of experiences I had at smaller camps. I love the Temple, and the sound camps, and Thunder Dome, but if they're smaller this year (or just aren't there) I'm still going to have a hell of a great time on the playa. If The Man is a scarecrow on top of a 100 foot pole it's not going to diminish my enjoyment. If Arctica only has one location, or the Cafe doesn't have coffee it will be inconvenient, but by no means critical. Bigger isn't better, it's just harder to put together.

As far as all the "virgins don't contribute" rhetoric: my theme camp has a dozen people in it. Three of us have been to Burning Man before. We're doing a theme camp AND an art car because all the "non-contributing" virgins wanted to, because they've heard me talk about how much fun it is to participate in Burning Man (instead of just observe, which is admittedly what I spent most of my first year doing).

Instead of trying direct tickets to the big theme camps, maybe the org should have facilitate directing people. Set up a registry for theme camps. A way for burners that aren't already associated with a camp to find an understaffed camp hey want to join. Give virgins opportunities to become part of the community before they ever get to the playa, instead of just writing them off as gawkers and giving the tickets to veterans with documented contributions, creating a de facto caste system. There are a lot of ways to contribute folks. My g/f has been going to Burning Man for a decade, she volunteers, she works hard in the theme camp she's part of that year, but because she isn't "in" with one of the big camps there's a good chance she won't be able to get a ticket this year.

What's done is done. The org has made a decision, and they should follow through on it. But for 2013, I hope they accept that they can't control the event the way they'd like, and just let it evolve.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:12 am

Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.


Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.
Last edited by ZaphodBurner on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby hotmess » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:15 am

I would get out and pee on the car.
Last edited by hotmess on Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Arnoldo » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:24 am

I guess I could piss and moan... But I won't! One way or another I will see you in the DUST!
Peace full anarchy in a place called crazy...
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby hotmess » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:26 am

Right on brotha!!!! Stay dusty!
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby remi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:32 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.


So what? Now burgins won't know how to stay alive and not hurt themselves? I think your confusing "virgin" with "dumbass". A dumbass vet burner can just as easily fall off a structure or step on a rusty nail.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby wraith » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:33 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.


Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.


I believe it was you that mentioned it before, but my real fear is a true whiteout with half the population being virgins who may have never even heard of it. You know, the kind of thing that happened in 2001. Condition Alpha. A three-day hurricane force dust storm, right at Exodus.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby waynerd » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:34 am

remi wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.


So what? Now burgins won't know how to stay alive and not hurt themselves? I think your confusing "virgin" with "dumbass". A dumbass vet burner can just as easily fall off a structure or step on a rusty nail.



Haven't you heard? We're all Infants.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby haolegolucky » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:58 am

WE WERE ALL BIRGINS ONCE!

99.99% of us did not kill ourselves or someone else. Remember that.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby vargaso » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:09 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.


Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.


I don't know, my first year was in 2007, some very nasty storms that year, I managed to not die and even have some fun during the storms. The truth is, it ain't THAT hard out there, even in dust storms. There is the possibility of a really serious storm like in 2001 the day after the event, I guess, but even veterans won't be prepared for that because almost nobody has experience with that. What could happen (and probably will) is a lot more MOOP, and a lot more tailgate-type behavior, which sucks. The tone of the event really depends on self-policing, the stinkeye (and worse) you get if your costume is leaking feathers all over the playa, for instance. It's not a top-down mandate that preserves that, it comes from "the community." I supposed that is in jeopardy if there are far more newbies than vets. I don't know. I'm just typing here.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:34 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:The purpose of the open sale was kind of intended to be a safety net all along.



Respectfully, I don't think so, because the open sale started in 2009 or 2010 before there was any perceived risk of the event selling out.

It's certainly mutated from that.


OK, then I perceived it as MY safety net this year when the main lotto went horribly wrong.

Anyone who didn't see this selling out after last year wasn't paying attention. Allowing any "johnny come latelys" at this point is a luxury we can't afford.

Not that it matters anymore anyway after those 10000 tix went up in smoke.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:39 pm

The CO wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:don't forget they started the ticket selling process this year with elitism - 3000 tickets for $420 each, highest priced tickets yet.


They've sold presale tickets for a few years before this.


OK, ok, they've sold them before..... The fact that spending MORE gave you a better chance of getting a ticket is what I'm focusing on here.

Just like scalping or buying first class plane tickets, you can have one if you pay more.

My point is that if we know they are going to sell out, everyone would feel alot more equality if all the tickets were the same price and came out of the same draw, one ticket per registrant.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby remi » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:50 pm

Interesting read..

"The best solution would have been to leave it alone. Let it be organic. Let it be. . . Fertile. Do we really need the same wonderful camps and art doing basically the same wonderful thing every year for the last decade? Maybe the more supporting players in those groups who ARE holding tickets would have stepped up to new creative and leadership positions and give us something we wondered how the event ever survived without. Or maybe those things would have come from someone who had never been there."


and then about 1 ticket through STEP being a blessing..

"I have witnessed jealous husbands and wives who come out to Burning Man but they actually hate the burn in their hearts. They only do it to keep tabs on their Mrs / Mr. They bring drama-drama-drama because of their fear. And now those insecure people have to stay home. HOORAY! See, this poop situation has birthed a positive effect."

Lots of interesting views.

EDIT: I support BMOrgs decision to allocate the remaining tickets, and I disagree with the 2nd statement.. but I just thought they were intersting views from another page I would share.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:02 pm

Galaxo Magic wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:You never know who is going to transform from a gaper yahoo dumbass into a year after year burner, but shit, the first year they are all suspects - why? Well I don't know what % of virgins return the very next year ready to rock but it's not 100%, nor is it 75%, could be 50%? Anyone?

Interesting question, let me see, in the last 4 years our small camp has brought 14 birgens, 4 have returned at least once. All four that have returned have been hard workers. Of the other 10, four were hard workers and good birgens.

I don't know what this implies and it is a very small sample. My experience in 11-years of going is that a % of birgens (maybe 40-50%) end up being great burners, the other 50-60% end up being yahoo dumbasses. On the other hand, all the veteran burners in our camp (100%) are great burners, hard working, participants. What does it mean? I have no fracking idea.....but makes me feel like veterans have the edge on birgens. JMHO


Thanks for helping me articulate my point. We all know that as a virgin you just don't know what the hell you're getting yourself into, and other than feeding yourself and keeping yourself from being incinerated, you don't really know what you're doing.

Waynerd, please, I don't hate you for being a newb - that you're here in ePlaya and really trying to learn all you can about the ropes months before you go says A LOT.

I'm talking about those with no real ties to the event, who buy a ticket because time magazine said it was awesome, show up in street clothes on thursday, get drunk for 72 hours, watch the man burn, and then leave immediately on Sunday and really just came to stare. Like it or not, there is a significant portion of these kinda of people that come to burning man, and in this situation of ticket scarcity I want their effing ticket for those of us who contribute - and that means all of us here who go year after year after year.

If people on the board want to argue and disagree with that, then I don't know what....

Little Story: I lived in an apartment above a garage for 5 years - the landlords were my friends, I went to dinner at their house, campfires, etc. They watched me go to bman year after year. They asked questions. I told them I thought they might like the event - but when "Ralph" admitted they were just curious and only wanted to come for 3 or 4 days to see what happens and didn't seem interested in what the event is or contribute, I told them they should just stay home.

He was hurt, but I told him there much more to it and if you can't be bothered to find out then it's not for you.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby gibson_ » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:04 pm

Yes, everybody was a virgin at one time.

I was a virgin last year.

This was after I had been hearing about this thing every year since 2001, though, and every year hearing about how fucking insane the weather can be.

The worry is that a lot of these people think they're going to a happy fun relaxing music festival in the desert, and won't be prepared. Previously, you pretty much had to have burner friends to even know what burning man was. These friends were there to hold your hand through planning, and were there to make sure that you had your shit covered.

I had countless phone calls and beer-sessions with one of my long-time burner friends last year in preparation, checking, re-checking, re-checking, and then checking again everything that I had to make sure that everything was covered.

And then on the day we left for the playa, spending an hour on the phone with him again, rechecking, again, to make sure that everything was covered.

The problem is: how many of these virgins don't have that this year? That's what a lot of us are concerned about. Last year went completely smooth for my camp for two reasons:

1) We had a rock-solid network of friends who could tell us what to prepare for, how to prepare for it, that could steer us in the right direction, etc.
2) The weather last year was a nice sunny day at the beach.

#2 is *definitely* not going to be true this year, and a lot of us are scared that for a lot of these people, #1 isn't going to be either.

It's not just hating the virgins, it's being worried about them.

(This is something I wrote on stuff that they should be prepared for: http://thingist.com/t/item/23807/)
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Re: Birgen Man 2012

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:10 pm

Brianna_Beauty413 wrote:
Galaxo Magic wrote:So, if 40% of the 40k tickets go to Birgens, then we'll have 16k Birgens, if half of them are awesome contributors, then there will only be 8k dumbass Birgens out of 58k. That's about 13-14% dumbass, that seems normal to me. So I am cool with the 16k Birgens this year. PLUS, I am guessing that Birgens that had it together to get a ticket in the lottery already know more than the average Birgen of years past.

I can't wait for 2012 Birgen Man!


I'm a Birgen this year...as are many people that I've met on here. I've known of Burning Man for about 6 years and always wanted to go. I decided this year would be my year way before the lottery crap was introduced. I've read the Survival Guide up and down, front to back. I've made lists, saved money, started on gifting projects and so on... I can only hope that there are more Birgen's out there that have done the same as I have. If they have - this year will be the best yet! Then next year we can keep the tradition of saying "last year was better" going on for years to come :D


Hey Brianna

YER DOIN IT WRONG! hahahaha, don't you know that as some gaper newb you're supposed to show up with nothing but your camera and binoculars? :lol:

Seriously though, you're doing it right, as right as you can not knowing what to expect. That's all I ask of any newb, is a willingness to learn and make it important and not just some multi-day party with boobies.

Yer aces, you deserve your ticket, and don't get all bummed out because I'm raking bucket list newbs over the coals because they have MY ticket.

rock onward
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby alt12 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:14 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:
Thanks for helping me articulate my point. We all know that as a virgin you just don't know what the hell you're getting yourself into, and other than feeding yourself and keeping yourself from being incinerated, you don't really know what you're doing.

Waynerd, please, I don't hate you for being a newb - that you're here in ePlaya and really trying to learn all you can about the ropes months before you go says A LOT.

I'm talking about those with no real ties to the event, who buy a ticket because time magazine said it was awesome, show up in street clothes on thursday, get drunk for 72 hours, watch the man burn, and then leave immediately on Sunday and really just came to stare. Like it or not, there is a significant portion of these kinda of people that come to burning man, and in this situation of ticket scarcity I want their effing ticket for those of us who contribute



Fair enough but how on earth are you going to predict who will be a "contributing virgin" and who will be a "clueless dumbass." Unless you have psychic powers we're not aware of, its going to be hard to tell purely from ticket application who will fall into which category.

There is no way to predict what someone will do at BM at their first time purely based on the fact that they are virgins. I've had virgin camp-mates that were seriously out of place, had a miserable time, and never returned, I've had virgins who worked their ass off on year-1 pre-event and post-event, I've had virgins who fucked-off the first year and came back on year 2 and kicked ass (myself included!), even saw an obvious virgin neighbor pull-up with his girlfriend in a shiny BMW SUV basically hide in their car for two days and leave.... Without knowing these personally I would imagine its impossible to predict how they will turn out....


Our camp instituted a policy last year of having virgin camp-mates be "nominated" by a current member and set-up limits on how many virgins any one particular member could bring. This helped get virgins more involved in working on the camp and art projects but by no means guaranteed great participation....We've had upwards of 50% virgins in the camp at one time and aside from the camp being just a bit too big it worked it fine. Being a virgin says nothing about you.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby aidenus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:29 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.


Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.



I have to agree with Zaphod on this one. Listen, generalizations are ALWAYS going to be well, general. The assumption here is that there is a higher chance that a dumb tourist virgins will OD on some shitty drugs or get drunk and free fall 25 feet to their death of a structure and ruin the event for everyone, than say, a veteran.

Yes of course, a veteran burner can do something stupid, but the I'd say the chances are less likely (that whole, experience is a great teacher thing). This is not a Veteren vs. Virgin argument, but an experience argument. Aka There is a higher probability I will be better at you than let's say, Super Mario Brothers if I have played 10 times, and you have never played.

Due to the nature of the sell out, and the fact that you had to be on-top of your game this year to get a ticket. I predict you will have a much more educated virgin this year - Although it is possible that this could be negated by the virgins who bought two tickets in the lottery for "safety", and decided to invite a friend who really isn't into the 10 principles or open to all the energy that makes up the event. Time will tell!
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Finxiekins » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:31 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
Finxiekins wrote:I understand the concern about virgins, but seriously? A lot of you are acting as if ALL of the virgins will be unable to take care of themselves.


Really? Who;s saying ALL virgins will be unable to take care of themselves?

All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.

The entire Burning Man project is at stake.

If you want to camp in a wide open space without art, trance music and jaded old stale-blood burners who know what they're doing, check out the Alvord just north of the Black Rock Range. No lie, it is awesome, and the newcomers haven't fucked it all up like they did to Fourth of Juplaya by requiring the BLM to step in and take notice. There were hot springs on private property but of course new people with no respect for what the others built came along and trashed the tub areas. I don't know if he's rebuilt the structure yet, or if he even lets people use it anymore. Somebody stole the sign at the other springs nearby that warn you about toxic levels of arsenic in the water. So, if you're a newbie and it looks like a nice place to soak, well... the Black Rock Desert seems like a nice place to drink beer and run around barefoot all day long too.

Here's a question: How many virgins know what to expect if there's a white-out during, say, Exodus, and they have to sit in the vehicle with their windows up for eight hours? In 2010, they closed the gate for several hours because of the storm. Our van reached 120 degrees inside and if we ran the A/C, eventually the engine overheated. On the other hand, at least we had A/C. Anybody who opened the vents and turned on the fan might as well have just rolled down the window.

Have any of you, virgin or veteran, considered what 25,000 people will do in the Exodus line if some car right in the middle of it catches on fire?

That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.


Let me put it this way: I've seen a lot of condescending remarks about virgins. It's disappointing. Not all virgins will be stupid. It's a beautiful thing that the guide was written by burners and I think that's a great way to introduce people to the playa. I appreciate the veterans very much, but I think there's something to be said for a well-educated virgin.

There are things that people can come up with in an emergency situation that require logic and survival skills. This is what this is all about, right? Survival in a harsh environment. It can be hard, and yes, I do agree that there are people that have NO CLUE what to do in that sort of situation. However, I refuse to be one of those people that have no fucking clue what to do to protect themselves. I've been reading up on survival in desert environments, what to do in panic situations among huge crowds. I will not be ill-prepared and I've met a lot of virgins with the same sentiment.

It's not about who is a virgin or not - It's about survival, no matter who you may be.

I never meant for my post to be condescending or rude to veterans, that's not what I'm all about. I just thought I would point out that the virgins are not a collective group of idiots. Sure, I bet a bunch of them are - But I think with the ePlaya count growing every day there will be far less-informed people than initially thought. I respect what the veterans have done and I hope to meet many! I may be well-informed, but I'm sure there are things that I have yet to learn. But, alas, I'm going on a bunny-trail. All respect to you man, and I see what you're saying and I agree wholeheartedly.

In retrospect, maybe that first sentence on my post was a bit rude. (Agh, not good at this debating over the internet thing! I apologize far too easily!) I hope to meet you on the playa, even if we may disagree.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby packlet » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:37 pm

So if they'll be assigning the 10k tickets to camps/MV/artists, wouldn't you think they'd add some questions about that to the registration forms?
Registration for camps/MV/art/etc supposedly opened yesterday (feb 15th), but while the existing forms ask if you've purchased a ticket
they don't appear to ask how many you might need to bring your 'thing' to the playa... Anyone care to comment on that? Thanx.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:37 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:It warms the cockles of my heart to see nncoco get repeatedly bitch-slapped...


Me too. DB.....
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Re: Birgen Man 2012

Postby Brianna_Beauty413 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:40 pm

Colonel Monk wrote:Hey Brianna

YER DOIN IT WRONG! hahahaha, don't you know that as some gaper newb you're supposed to show up with nothing but your camera and binoculars? :lol:

Seriously though, you're doing it right, as right as you can not knowing what to expect. That's all I ask of any newb, is a willingness to learn and make it important and not just some multi-day party with boobies.

Yer aces, you deserve your ticket, and don't get all bummed out because I'm raking bucket list newbs over the coals because they have MY ticket.

rock onward



OH I'm definitely willing and ready to learn. I'm sure no matter how much I "prepare" for BM - it will still be one of the biggest challenges I've ever experienced. I say prepared in quotations because I believe you can work and work to get ready for BM but nothing will have prepared you for what you are going to see and experience! :mrgreen:
"One good thing about music: When it hits you - you feel no pain" - Bob Marley
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:46 pm

waynerd wrote:
remi wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote:All it takes is for 10 of the 40,000 of them to kill themselves, hurt somebody, or for some burners' families to file lawsuits against the org and the campers around their deceased love one (I don't want to bring any names into it, but, the veterans know what this is about) and everything that the veterans have helped create over the years is at stake.


So what? Now burgins won't know how to stay alive and not hurt themselves? I think your confusing "virgin" with "dumbass". A dumbass vet burner can just as easily fall off a structure or step on a rusty nail.



Haven't you heard? We're all Infants.


Wnerd, stop taking this personally. We KNOW you're gonna rock, but when you finally experience a week at burning man you'll know what we are talking about - especially if the playa conditions are difficult. You'll see the 7,000 idiots who show up Thursday night and leave Sunday morning, and then you'll realize why we feel their ticket is better off in our pocket.

Chill, and keep prepping, we are happy to have you - you just have to figure out when to include yourself in "idiot gaper virgin" or not. We aren't putting you in there, YOU are! :lol:
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:53 pm

vargaso wrote:
That's why the Survival Guide was written by veterans.


I don't know, my first year was in 2007, some very nasty storms that year, I managed to not die and even have some fun during the storms. The truth is, it ain't THAT hard out there, even in dust storms. There is the possibility of a really serious storm like in 2001 the day after the event, I guess, but even veterans won't be prepared for that because almost nobody has experience with that. What could happen (and probably will) is a lot more MOOP, and a lot more tailgate-type behavior, which sucks. The tone of the event really depends on self-policing, the stinkeye (and worse) you get if your costume is leaking feathers all over the playa, for instance. It's not a top-down mandate that preserves that, it comes from "the community." I supposed that is in jeopardy if there are far more newbies than vets. I don't know. I'm just typing here.[/quote]

Hey Vargaso

Yeah 2007 had some really wicked storms - it was so hot that year I welcomed them, because it cooled the air temp like 30 degrees.

Don't forget, that your location in the city makes a big difference - where you might just be choking on dust, in another part of the city it might be condition alpha for a few minutes. My ranger buds and I geared up and went out in those storms to direct lost people to shelter, and had to mobilize an ambulance for an 11 year old boy who got steamrolled by a large tarped dome - the wind rolled it right over him and he was lucky to just have a broken arm and cuts and bruises - so don't underestimate a bad dust storm.

The past two years of cool relatively dust-free weather have people forgetting.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby MedullaB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:56 pm

My fear isn't necessarily of virgins - quite frankly I have the same fears of any burners who have not expereinced the absolute fierceness that playa weather can throw at you.

The last two burns I see more and more structures not properly secured, the last two years no problems since there hasn't been any major winds...

I just don't want to see a mangled aluminum EZ up come flying towards me at 45 mph.


My virgin year, I had one of those ez ups, but had also read... lots... fortunately I had many 16" rebar stakes holding it down - two to each corner. It STILL took me and my camp mate to hold it together during the bad windstorm in 2007. I recall vividly wathing those 16" rebar stakes starting to wiggle and pull out of the ground. CRAZY.

Virgins and veterens who've never been through that - PLEASE - not only read the survival guide, make it your bible! :D

Hope to see ALL of you safe on the Playa!

MB
M

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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby hotmess » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:56 pm

And when people forget they get lazy. Or they simply don't know. For anyone who went last year for the first time and thought, "hey I know what I'm doing, my tent didn't fly away", don't count on that this year. My philosophy, you think you got enough rebar, add 5 more.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:21 pm

alt12 wrote:
Colonel Monk wrote:
Thanks for helping me articulate my point. We all know that as a virgin you just don't know what the hell you're getting yourself into, and other than feeding yourself and keeping yourself from being incinerated, you don't really know what you're doing.

Waynerd, please, I don't hate you for being a newb - that you're here in ePlaya and really trying to learn all you can about the ropes months before you go says A LOT.

I'm talking about those with no real ties to the event, who buy a ticket because time magazine said it was awesome, show up in street clothes on thursday, get drunk for 72 hours, watch the man burn, and then leave immediately on Sunday and really just came to stare. Like it or not, there is a significant portion of these kinda of people that come to burning man, and in this situation of ticket scarcity I want their effing ticket for those of us who contribute



Fair enough but how on earth are you going to predict who will be a "contributing virgin" and who will be a "clueless dumbass." Unless you have psychic powers we're not aware of, its going to be hard to tell purely from ticket application who will fall into which category.

There is no way to predict what someone will do at BM at their first time purely based on the fact that they are virgins. I've had virgin camp-mates that were seriously out of place, had a miserable time, and never returned, I've had virgins who worked their ass off on year-1 pre-event and post-event, I've had virgins who fucked-off the first year and came back on year 2 and kicked ass (myself included!), even saw an obvious virgin neighbor pull-up with his girlfriend in a shiny BMW SUV basically hide in their car for two days and leave.... Without knowing these personally I would imagine its impossible to predict how they will turn out....


Our camp instituted a policy last year of having virgin camp-mates be "nominated" by a current member and set-up limits on how many virgins any one particular member could bring. This helped get virgins more involved in working on the camp and art projects but by no means guaranteed great participation....We've had upwards of 50% virgins in the camp at one time and aside from the camp being just a bit too big it worked it fine. Being a virgin says nothing about you.


I have to tend to agree with you - HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THEY ARE ANY GOOD OR NOT?

"My Name is Colonel Monk - and I don't know what I'm talking about" <you know, like the interview guy on PBS that was spoofed on SNL? anyway...>

I don't know how you do that with an open sale, and maybe that's why THAT aspect of the burn needs to change / evolve / whatever

Looking at what you wrote above, you fully know what I'm talking about - some virgins turn out to be great and some of them should never have had a ticket wasted on them. My first year several years ago, on Tuesday we were headed to the burn, and at the gas station in Fernley, I witnessed a woman EMASCULATING her man for ever bringing her to the event. Waste of a ticket.

So you guys in your camp have instituted a system whereby a virgin can't be brought to the burn without some serious consideration. That right there is a possible solution to our problem.

Perhaps in order to buy one of the LIMITED number of tickets available to newbs each year, you need to submit an essay and explain why you think you'll be a good addition to the community. Make people think about this BEFORE they decide to come out. I've been disappointed by people I've met that I thought were cool, only to hear them exclaim "it's just a giant party in the desert, who cares"

Who is going to read the essays? Well, I would volunteer to read some, and I'm sure many of you would too. The first pass to weed out the scalpers and gapers would be really quite easy.

Or, maybe you have to attend a regional event first, and gain your credentials.

Speaking of my own experience, my friend that ultimately brought me into the fold had been a burner for a decade since the mid nineties - he wouldn't tell me anything about the event really - he wasn't interested in "selling" me on it or "recruiting" me - he wanted to see me take a genuine interest in it and pursue other means to learn about it before he even would talk to me about it.

I don't support the practice of theme camps "recruiting" virgins, it seems kind of self-serving. And it can be to the detriment of the community. Look at it this way, now there's not enough tickets for everyone to go - so why would you persuade someone to go to the event who would not have found it unless you sold them on it? By your own admission, some of them don't work out, hate it and never come back - so the screening process isn't perfect.

But verily, better that newbs can at least be "pre-screened" by your theme camp then allowing those tickets to go to weekend warrior yahoos...
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby vargaso » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:31 pm

some virgins turn out to be great and some of them should never have had a ticket wasted on them


Who's to decide that? People can learn a lot about themselves from a terrible experience. About their limits, about what they thought they were into, etc. Just because someone has a shitty time on the playa and ends up not contributing that much to the greater event, doesn't mean the experience wasn't valuable to that person.

This is why I'm against allocating tickets to certain groups. There is no right way to do Burning Man, that's what makes it such a profound gathering. It touches people in all kinds of ways, and even (or especially) the negative experiences are valuable.
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Re: New Blog - Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 201

Postby Colonel Monk » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:48 pm

vargaso wrote:
some virgins turn out to be great and some of them should never have had a ticket wasted on them


Who's to decide that? People can learn a lot about themselves from a terrible experience. About their limits, about what they thought they were into, etc. Just because someone has a shitty time on the playa and ends up not contributing that much to the greater event, doesn't mean the experience wasn't valuable to that person.

This is why I'm against allocating tickets to certain groups. There is no right way to do Burning Man, that's what makes it such a profound gathering. It touches people in all kinds of ways, and even (or especially) the negative experiences are valuable.


I don't know. I wish I had an answer that is amenable to all.

But if the event is going to become exclusive I at least want a shot to be included.

The essay thing or some kind of pre-selection? It doesn't have to be that thorough, but at least it might weed out scalpers and yahoos that just want to see critical tits.

Everyone else, who becomes burners, I want to include. I really do - but now that we have a ticket problem, like it or not there are choices to be made and they will exclude people.

WTF are we talking about - they already HAVE excluded people.
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