redistribution of left over tickets.

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redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby ori » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:22 am

Hello All,
I usually don't get myself involved in the mess that is tickets to burning man.
a lot of people are whining and creating a panic though out the community, i was fortunate enough to win a ticket in the lottery, but i must say that i am terebbly affraid of how the event is going to look like with 70 % of the people are none contributors (virgins, or people with not enough time.) the main camps are compalining that not enough people from their core crew will be able to get in and help, and there for a lot of what make burningman burningman will be gone with it.
but i say there is a way to fix it, it might sound very unburningman-like but it is only a solution to fix this years ticket fiasco.
i say that the reminder of the tickets, 10,000 to my count, will go to contributing members of the community. meaning, BM HQ will receive applications from theme camps, art cars, art peaces, sound camps, volunteers and all, saying how many tickets they will need to make their project work.

- first by doing this you will know, that none of thees tickets (or very few) will go to e-bay or be sold over face value.
- you are also making sure that the people who need to be there will be there.
- you are encouraging people to join in with art crews and volunteer to help build the city. (it is the only way to get a ticket.)
- you are fixing the randomness of the raffle with some hardcore managing of population.

later on the remaining tickets can go on sale. thus giving hope for those who have less time to help, or do not wish to.

i mean think about it. you can still fix this. enough with the "its going to be OK" bulls@#% take charge and start thinking about distributing the remainder of the tickets to those ones who actually devote their time and sweat to this amazing amazing thing called Burning Man. How i see it this the the only way to fix it this year...

I wish that everyone that wants to go will!
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby unjonharley » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:27 am

]
How the hell do you fix something that you don't even know if it is broken?

There is no one here on e playa that can react to yet another stupid post..

Run along now and write to Burning man tickets..
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:28 am

Don't link to anything here!
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:42 am

Thank you for your posting. At this time, there are already 2+ topics with the same idea being promoted. Please take the following steps to avoid redundant threads:

1-Go to the 'introduce yourself' thread and do just that.
2-Read the FAQ.
3-Scan the first page or 2 of any given forum to see if the subject you wish to discuss has already been started.

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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:45 am

unjonharley wrote:]
How the hell do you fix something that you don't even know if it is broken?



DOOD I DIDNT GET A TICKET: THEREFORE :

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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby gibson_ » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:46 am

I'm curious:

Are you an artist of any kind? I see this idea popping up frequently, that only the artists should be allowed to attend the event, or that they should get preferential treatment.

I've got a new idea: an art gallery! But we lock the doors and only let the artists who built the pieces in!

Thoughts?
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby ori » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:08 am

[quote="gibson_"]I'm curious:

Are you an artist of any kind? I see this idea popping up frequently, that only the artists should be allowed to attend the event, or that they should get preferential treatment.

I've got a new idea: an art gallery! But we lock the doors and only let the artists who built the pieces in!

Thoughts?[/quote]


I am not saying only let artists in, that would go against the Ideas of Burningman, i say in order to have those art pieces and sound camps and all the other little things that make the city of Black Rock so great we need to let those people in, and yes, if that means that you have to volunteer for an theme camp or art piece to get a ticket. do it.
for your questions, yes i have been going to burning man for 6 years now,I spent 3 weeks on the playa last year to help in build the temple. it is a great opportunity and an amazing experience, which i hope everyone that wants do do it can. which right now is not the case. a lot of those people will not be able to get in this year. if i am not mistaken (and i can tell from the temple crew team (IAM) ) 20% of the main core people who volunteer every year and who work for this city for months before the event starts, did not get tickets. and yes it might ,and most likely, will still be an amazing event. But why not encourage more commitment to the event and the city?

Right, it might not be broken, but is sure as hell not perfect!
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby alt12 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:58 am

gibson_ wrote:I'm curious:

Are you an artist of any kind? I see this idea popping up frequently, that only the artists should be allowed to attend the event, or that they should get preferential treatment.

I've got a new idea: an art gallery! But we lock the doors and only let the artists who built the pieces in!

Thoughts?


Umm artists do actually get preferential treatment already. They get comp tickets, they even get funding for their art. They also get early arrival passes and passes to drive their cars on-playa to/from their art. In short, artists receive any perk available at burning man. Not all artists obviously. The powers that be choose which art projects and artists they want to support.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:03 am

alt12 wrote:The powers that be choose which art projects and artists they want to support from the pool of artists that applied for a grant.


Fixed.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby uncle sticky » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:40 am

Ori is what you would call a "burner." He spend about three weeks in the desert last year on a very large project, after doing much more than that in Reno, so attempts to claim that he doesn't have the sweat equity in to make a comment is off the mark.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:43 am

Sticky, I don't see anyone here making that claim.

*edit*
I see that Gibson asked if ori was an artist, but that's a a simple question, not an attack.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby Herring » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:48 am

alt12 wrote:Umm artists do actually get preferential treatment already. They get comp tickets, they even get funding for their art. They also get early arrival passes and passes to drive their cars on-playa to/from their art. In short, artists receive any perk available at burning man. Not all artists obviously. The powers that be choose which art projects and artists they want to support.


I believe that "Bliss Dance" did not receive a grant and her builders were responsible for their own tickets.

Edit: That's just an example of art that can define burning man for a lot of us but won't get to be there this year.

Anyway, yes this has been discussed on san francisco blogs and these here forums alike. Also the 10,000 tickets left haven't been put up for sale yet, so the word REdistributed makes it sound like you're talking about the lottery tickets.
Last edited by Herring on Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby Marscrumbs » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:48 am

This will be a self correcting problem. I'll miss this year. And when it sucks big time, the word will get out. Then next year they will be lucky to sell half of their tickets. Maybe I'll come back then.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:55 am

Herring wrote:I believe that "Bliss Dance" did not receive a grant and her builders were responsible for their own tickets.


The CO wrote:
alt12 wrote:The powers that be choose which art projects and artists they want to support from the pool of artists that applied for a grant.


Fixed.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby alt12 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:04 pm

Herring wrote:
alt12 wrote:Umm artists do actually get preferential treatment already. They get comp tickets, they even get funding for their art. They also get early arrival passes and passes to drive their cars on-playa to/from their art. In short, artists receive any perk available at burning man. Not all artists obviously. The powers that be choose which art projects and artists they want to support.


I believe that "Bliss Dance" did not receive a grant and her builders were responsible for their own tickets.


I can't comment on particular art projects, I'm not in the Artery or BRAF. I'm just speaking from my experience working on art projects. I think art projects should get preferential treatment as I've said many times on other threads. It is, after all, the Burning Man ARTS Festival, not the Burning Man Theme Camp Festival and we live in a country that as a whole doesn't really value/prioritize art (relative to other endeavors, music, athletics, intellectual pursuits, etc.) and provides minuscule support for the arts....My only complain is how that support is distributed (not too different than the BMORG 2.0 complaints)

I also organize a theme camp and while I think its a shame that some theme camps *may* not come or have to scale back because of the ticket situation, I am not in favor of preferential treatment for theme camps for many many reasons. If things end up as everyone fears, (i.e. worst case scenario), this ticketing outcome will be much like a forest fire that clears out all the detritus, the brush, etc. etc. I think it could make for a very interesting burn (good/bad, who knows? who the fuck can predict that?) and will result in a bit of a shakeout for virgin and veteran burners alike and likely a smaller event the year after....

That being said, I hate the lottery and have hated it from the beginning and sincerely hope next years is not a lottery process.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:10 pm

alt12 wrote:It is, after all, the Burning Man ARTS Festival, not the Burning Man Theme Camp Festival


The event is called Burning Man.

The old org is called Black Rock City LLC

The new org is called the Burning Man Project.

Where are you getting the 'arts festival' part?
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:11 pm

gibson_ wrote:I'm curious:
Are you an artist of any kind? I see this idea popping up frequently, that only the artists should be allowed to attend the event, or that they should get preferential treatment.

I've got a new idea: an art gallery! But we lock the doors and only let the artists who built the pieces in!


You can't have an art festival without artists. It's that simple. You cannot have an art festival if the artists cannot get tickets.

However interesting you and I think we are as burners, we're not as interesting as a Trojan Horse or an exploding oil derrick or a temple conceived and built over an entire year, or Apokalyptica. People need to learn to cope with that. Look.... this shit is printed on the front fucking page of Burningman.com

"Art Theme: Fertility 2.0
Black Rock City is a kind of Petri dish. Theme camps cling in fertile clusters to its latticework of streets, artworks tumble out of it, like pollen on the air. These nodes of interaction mutate, grow and reproduce their kind, only to effloresce"

It's not about 50,000 snarky self-absorbed hipsters wandering around in funny clothes and patting each other on the back for being so fucking cool. It's about BUILDING A CITY. That's why there's an Art Theme, and not a People Theme. It's not a Discussion Topic. People don't make photos of me, they make photos of this:

http://burningcam.com/2010/photos/large-207.html
http://www.loupiote.com/burningman/phot ... 6384.shtml
http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfga ... lefire.jpg
http://www.loupiote.com/burningman/phot ... 1596.shtml

"Once a year, tens of thousands of participants gather in Nevada's Black Rock Desert to create Black Rock City, dedicated to community, art, self-expression, and self-reliance" To have the kind of art that requires the Black Rock Desert to host it, you have to have artists, which is why there's a Black Rock Arts Foundation and Art Grants.

"Art is an unavoidable part of this experience, and in fact, is such a part of the experience that Larry Harvey, founder of the Burning Man project, gives a theme to each year, to encourage a common bond to help tie each individual's contribution together in a meaningful way..."

Anyway, it'll work itself out and hopefully we'll be talking about this over a beverage in my camp. The Hat himself prophesied:

"Wonderful things have been achieved at Burning Man by people who have never done art before. Instead of doing art about the state of society, we do art that creates society around it."" -1996
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby Eric » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:23 pm

The CO wrote:
Herring wrote:I believe that "Bliss Dance" did not receive a grant and her builders were responsible for their own tickets.


The CO wrote:
alt12 wrote:The powers that be choose which art projects and artists they want to support from the pool of artists that applied for a grant.


Fixed.


Except that Bliss Dance did apply for a grant, they were denied. They still kicked ass.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:25 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:"Once a year, tens of thousands of participants gather in Nevada's Black Rock Desert to create Black Rock City, dedicated to (1)community, (2)art, (3)self-expression, and (4)self-reliance" To have the kind of art that requires the Black Rock Desert to host it, you have to have artists, which is why there's a Black Rock Arts Foundation and Art Grants.


Art is one of four things they say are important in that quote, and it's not even the first thing they list.

Art grant applications closed the same day as the lottery was finishing. Artists that were on the ball actually had far better odds to get a ticket, as they could both enter the pre-sale/lottery and compete against a much smaller pool (applicants for art grants) in a second system. That second system, in addition to having smaller numbers of 'competitors', has the added factor that the artist can (and must) make a case as to why they deserve special treatment.

So to propose that the remaining tickets be distributed among 'artists' and theme camps holds the potential to reward people that were either to lazy to apply in time, or were rejected by grant process, perhaps with good reason.

@ eric in edit: I know, I was illustrating that (1-the art grants don't drop out of the sky, one must apply, and (2-awesome art happened without a grant. Sorry if that was not clear.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:46 pm

The CO wrote:Where are you getting the 'arts festival' part?


I, for example, not only like to draw upon my own years of experience as a Burner; I also like to read the Burning Man website.

"Art is an unavoidable part of this experience, and in fact, is such a part of the experience that Larry Harvey, founder of the Burning Man project, gives a theme to each year, to encourage a common bond to help tie each individual's contribution together in a meaningful way"

"Art at Burning Man does not merely attempt to break down barriers between audience and art form, and between creator and participant — a long-standing aim of avant-garde movements in our century. It seeks to become the central principle that generates both social interaction and the ordering architecture of civic space." http://www.burningman.com/art_of_burnin ... of_bm.html

"At a practical level, much of this art requires an action on the part of participants to achieve completion. It is often premised on fantasies and participatory scenarios which seduce the erstwhile audience for art into assuming an active and interpretive role that often places them in a relationship with fellow participants. This principle is most immediately evident in what are called "Theme Camps". These live-in interactive installations have multiplied in recent years until they now line the main street of Black Rock City, extending in an uninterrupted series over more than one linear mile of civic real estate. Almost as prevalent are art-based conveyances. " ibid. , and links to http://www.burningman.com/art_of_burnin ... llery.html and http://www.burningman.com/art_of_burnin ... llery.html

By the way, people need to cut the "radical self reliance" bullshit. Radical self-reliance is what the emigrants used to cross the desert on foot along the Applegate/Lassen trail. We rely on Ford, Honda, the highway department, Exxon, Duracell, the DPW and off the volunteers who build the city for us so that when we leave we can tell everybody how radically self-reliant we are. The fucking Donner Party was radically self-reliant.

This thought occurred to me, by the way, 10,000 feet over the Yukon while I was ferrying a 1964 Cessna 172 by myself from St. George, UT to Fairbanks, in June, with no sight of human civilization, no roads, ever, for 100 miles in any direction, when suddenly the engine dropped 150 RPM and the annunciator voice said "Low Voltage!" In fact, there are only about 30,000 people in the entire Yukon. I had a whole shit-ton of time, minute by minute, to consider radical self-reliance which, by law up there, requires a flaregun, fish hooks, mosquito netting, a parka, two types of signalling devices and a rifle.

Right now, a friend of mine is ferrying one over the Pacific. 14 hours of trying not to fall asleep, get lost, take a shit or think about sharks is radical self reliance. There is very little art. Hopping in a jet and then renting a U-Haul to haul your gennie and blinkie lights and tents and bikes and booze to a campsite with clean toilets, police, fire and ambulances isn't radical shit. It's a camping trip. Burning Man is a camping trip in the desert. With ART.

A "theme camp" as I perceive it is just a group of people collecting working on art, whether it's performance art, service art, the airport, the portapotty crew, the temple, a diner or the support team for a large mutant vehicle. It implies some sort of invitation for public interaction as opposed to a parking lot filled with people who will call the police if you wander into their RV. Peace, bitches.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:59 pm

alt12 wrote:
Umm artists do actually get preferential treatment already. They get comp tickets,


My friends and I have been bringing art of all forms to the playa since 2004. Nobody has ever comped -any- of us tickets.

I know a burner who doesn't have a ticket. His "art" is, he'll fix your bike. Dressed like a Cheetah, spewing bizarre movie quotes, drunk off his ass and swearing a lot. But, if your bike breaks down, he'll fix it. He brings the stand, the tools, the parts. Now idea how many people he's helped, who come in, hang out and chat while he lubes everything up and talks dirty to it, then they go on their merry way.

He doesn't get preferential treatment. But, it's part of his theme camp. Our plan this year was to put it on the back of our MV, so you can hop on and cruise across the playa and fix it there, rather than have to walk it all the way to our camp.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:05 pm

Art is undeniably a part of the event. But it's not called the Burning Man arts festival. Much like you were saying earlier, it's not called the Burning Man theme camp/mutant vehicle/fire/music festival. It's just Burning Man.

I'll drop 'radical' from self-reliance if that helps. I'm still a big believer plain old self-reliance. If someone thinks that their art is so important to the event, they should apply for a grant. Or they should figure out, on their own, how to get them and their art there. If they think the playa will suck without their theme camp being there, they need to do the legwork to get it there.

I have a ticket available to me. But that is not going to stop me from putting in 200+ hours with my fire conclave to try to get into the great circle because spinning around the man base is fucking awesome. If I didn't have a ticket, I would still (even more so) be putting that time in, because it's a proactive way that I can attempt to secure my place at Burning Man, by using my own self-reliance and skills to bring something to the event.

And before anyone cries 'unfair' about the fact that conclave has tickets available to them: the system (including criteria for applying/getting accepted) for distributing discount tickets to conclave has been in place for many years, unlike the proposals for artists/theme camps to get first crack at the remaining sale. It is clearly defined, and furthermore, it is still open. If you think you and your friends have the chops, now is the time to start practicing. Details on joining the conclave can be found here.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby remi » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:13 pm

The CO wrote:Art is undeniably a part of the event. But it's not called the Burning Man arts festival. Much like you were saying earlier, it's not called the Burning Man theme camp/mutant vehicle/fire/music festival. It's just Burning Man.



I must agree with the CO. Just because an event has art, doesn't make it an 'arts festival'...

What is Burning Man?
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby remi » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:14 pm

remi wrote:
The CO wrote:Art is undeniably a part of the event. But it's not called the Burning Man arts festival. Much like you were saying earlier, it's not called the Burning Man theme camp/mutant vehicle/fire/music festival. It's just Burning Man.



I must agree with the CO. Just because an event has art, doesn't make it an 'arts festival'. There are (just recently) plenty of sound camps, DJ's and ravers.. is it safe to call Burning Man a rave?

What is Burning Man?
"Once a year, tens of thousands of participants gather in Nevada's Black Rock Desert to create Black Rock City, dedicated to community, art, self-expression, and self-reliance. They depart one week later, having left no trace whatsoever."
Can you at least admit that nuclear explosions are awesome!?
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:17 pm

The CO wrote:So to propose that the remaining tickets be distributed among 'artists' and theme camps holds the potential to reward people that were either to lazy to apply in time, or were rejected by grant process, perhaps with good reason.


And to do otherwise holds the potential to reward scalpers, weekenders and other people who win a random lottery but have no plan to actually participate. Take your pick.

My camp has never been rejected by any process, and has always had spectacular and positive interaction with the Org. I cannot speak highly enough of the camp placement team and, in fact, every interaction we've ever had with the organization. (except this one) You're completely wrong-headed.

Also, the pre-sale was, presumably, for the purpose of gifting, not for hoarding tickets for your camp. Personally: I could not attend in 2011 because I'm a flight instructor earning less than $10,000 a year, and my wife works for a non-profit so we can't afford to go every year; we couldn't just shit out $850 right before Christmas when allegedly it wouldn't be a problem getting tickets in the lottery; there's never BEEN a problem getting tickets before; and the money that we save by buying cheaper tickets ends up going into the ART, FOOD AND DRINKS and other GIFTS to the city as often as we can go.

Please don't assume me I'm "too lazy to apply in time" or was "rejected, perhaps for good reason." The Theme Camp application process HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET! but I've already built the website, LNT plan and camp layout, and registered the domain. The rest of the core group are doing their own things to bring to the city.

"But that is not going to stop me from putting in 200+ hours with my fire conclave to try to get into the great circle because spinning around the man base is fucking awesome" Missed you guys severely in 2008. The fire conclave is ART. [edited to add: THANKS FOR THE LINK! I had no idea!]
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby The CO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:50 pm

Apologies, I was referring only to art grants. As theme camps get no special ticket consideration (as of yet) and theme camp placement questionnaire has yet to close, I thought it might be implied that I was not referring to them.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby alt12 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:42 pm

The CO wrote:
alt12 wrote:It is, after all, the Burning Man ARTS Festival, not the Burning Man Theme Camp Festival


The event is called Burning Man.

The old org is called Black Rock City LLC

The new org is called the Burning Man Project.

Where are you getting the 'arts festival' part?

Sorry I can't find the actual title as "arts festival" buy from the burning man.com front page description of what burning man is: "Burning Man is an annual art event and temporary community based on radical self expression and self-reliance in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada." Its actually the meta tag "description" of the event.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby alt12 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:58 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote:
alt12 wrote:
Umm artists do actually get preferential treatment already. They get comp tickets,


My friends and I have been bringing art of all forms to the playa since 2004. Nobody has ever comped -any- of us tickets.


Yes and I've been urinating on the playa for longer than that, but no one's giving me any tickets. Seriously, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of various forms of art projects and of course they aren't all getting tickets or funding. There are what, 100-200 registered art projects out there every year and they don't give tickets/passes/funding out to hundreds of people. It is a small subset of registered art projects that get comp tickets and a small subset of registered art projects that even bother applying for a grant that get a grant. Again, the powers that be get to decide where they distribute their goodies.... I definitely did not mean to imply that all artists, however that is defined, get comp tickets/funding, etc., that's obviously not the case...
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby JStep » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:32 pm

ZaphodBurner wrote: By the way, people need to cut the "radical self reliance" bullshit. Radical self-reliance is what the emigrants used to cross the desert on foot along the Applegate/Lassen trail. We rely on Ford, Honda, the highway department, Exxon, Duracell, the DPW and off the volunteers who build the city for us so that when we leave we can tell everybody how radically self-reliant we are. The fucking Donner Party was radically self-reliant.


I have to disagree with this. Self Relicance doesn't mean you get by with no resources, it means you take reponsibility and accomplish things in the face of adversity with the resources you have.

Your analogy could be reversed and still be valid; Lewis and Clark relied on Joe's wagon wheels, The Dutch East India Trading Company, Smith and Wesson, Little One Feather's Canoe Building Workshops and Big Al's Beef Jerkey and Tequila Stand.
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Re: redistribution of left over tickets.

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:13 pm

JStep wrote:
ZaphodBurner wrote: By the way, people need to cut the "radical self reliance" bullshit. Radical self-reliance is what the emigrants used to cross the desert on foot along the Applegate/Lassen trail. We rely on Ford, Honda, the highway department, Exxon, Duracell, the DPW and off the volunteers who build the city for us so that when we leave we can tell everybody how radically self-reliant we are. The fucking Donner Party was radically self-reliant.


I have to disagree with this. Self Relicance doesn't mean you get by with no resources, it means you take reponsibility and accomplish things in the face of adversity with the resources you have.

Your analogy could be reversed and still be valid; Lewis and Clark relied on Joe's wagon wheels, The Dutch East India Trading Company, Smith and Wesson, Little One Feather's Canoe Building Workshops and Big Al's Beef Jerkey and Tequila Stand.


dont forget the trappers and traders who cut and improved the trails throughout great move west... oh yeah, and the books that you bought telling you all the supplies you needed, and .. of course, the hired men who led you on your way!!
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