Real evidence that the lottery is better....

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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby AntiM » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:24 am

stretch80 wrote:
BlackRockCityPimp wrote:Heres why the lottery is better...

A buncha sound art camps started showing up. Than more ravers started showing up growing the population of rvs, spectators, and weekenders. We sold out last year due to the fact that the sound camps helped make brc the "coolest rave evah". Now so many ravers want/need to roll in the desert that the sound camps cant get their build crews onsite. Sound camps are threatening to cancel participation rather than wait for tickets or take in new members/builders/etc. Less sound camps = less ravers. How is this a bad thing? Both sound camps and ravers will both have tickets available via STEP since the ravers wont come if theres no sound camps.


I see no negative with this ;) Less sound camps will mean less ravers and that is good! Maybe this will cut down on the Frat-children and tourists.


Finally, a BRCpimp post I can get behind.

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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby lemur » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:40 am

AntiM wrote:
stretch80 wrote:
BlackRockCityPimp wrote:Heres why the lottery is better...

A buncha sound art camps started showing up. Than more ravers started showing up growing the population of rvs, spectators, and weekenders. We sold out last year due to the fact that the sound camps helped make brc the "coolest rave evah". Now so many ravers want/need to roll in the desert that the sound camps cant get their build crews onsite. Sound camps are threatening to cancel participation rather than wait for tickets or take in new members/builders/etc. Less sound camps = less ravers. How is this a bad thing? Both sound camps and ravers will both have tickets available via STEP since the ravers wont come if theres no sound camps.


I see no negative with this ;) Less sound camps will mean less ravers and that is good! Maybe this will cut down on the Frat-children and tourists.


Finally, a BRCpimp post I can get behind.

(luv ya, in case you think I forgot my hippie oil)



i didnt want to be the first to say it... but i agree.. finally a brcpimp post i agree with.

if anything, fewer raves would keep us from having to listen to our campmates explanations of how "WICKED" and "OFF THE HOOK" the DJ at so-and-so-place was lastnight, ..

but.. I am not as pessimistic as many others..

I don't really see the ticket situation as putting any kind of damper on the raves/edm/ravers/rovingdanceparties.. they will be there..

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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby mshaman » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:57 am

I wouldn't have a problem with sound camps if there were more variety. I the mean time, their absence is the only benefit I can see to a system which has undermined many of the installations and services I value.

By my vigorous protest of this situation, many have presumed that I, myself, am in a sound camp, when really what I'm protesting is the loss of giant art installations, and services like the HeeBeeGeeBee healers' thousands of massages and healing sessions (cumulatively, that is. don't know how many they perform in a year), the professional psychics I had lined up to do readings in my gypsy art car for the playans, etc.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby lemur » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:09 am

every DJ and production crew who has ever heard of burning man probably wants to setup at esplanade and 10 and 2.. theyll be there even if it is just with a boom box and some wal-mart tents.

it is not an insurmountable challenge to haul out a buncha sound gear from some doods garage, or a rental house..

now, they might not have the resources to do the bigass domes and fancy fire art and neato DJ booths and light shows and whatever else stuff ....but... dont think for a second that there arent 20 groups willing to haul out really loud sound gear to fill in the gaps for every crew that decides they arent coming..

a shortage of DJs at burning man is about as likely as President Barack Obama showing up to sing a set with Al Green.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby mshaman » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:15 am

lemur wrote:every DJ and production crew who has ever heard of burning man probably wants to setup at esplanade and 10 and 2.. theyll be there even if it is just with a boom box and some wal-mart tents.

it is not an insurmountable challenge to haul out a buncha sound gear from some doods garage, or a rental house..

now, they might not have the resources to do the bigass domes and fancy fire art and neato DJ booths and light shows and whatever else stuff ....but... dont think for a second that there arent 20 groups willing to haul out really loud sound gear to fill in the gaps for every crew that decides they arent coming..

a shortage of DJs at burning man is about as likely as President Barack Obama showing up to sing a set with Al Green.


Heh. So true.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Rice » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:07 am

lemur wrote:every DJ and production crew who has ever heard of burning man probably wants to setup at esplanade and 10 and 2.. theyll be there even if it is just with a boom box and some wal-mart tents.

it is not an insurmountable challenge to haul out a buncha sound gear from some doods garage, or a rental house..

now, they might not have the resources to do the bigass domes and fancy fire art and neato DJ booths and light shows and whatever else stuff ....but... dont think for a second that there arent 20 groups willing to haul out really loud sound gear to fill in the gaps for every crew that decides they arent coming..

a shortage of DJs at burning man is about as likely as President Barack Obama showing up to sing a set with Al Green.

You can't swing a frat-boy without hitting a wanna-be DJ anyhow ;)

So basically, the world will not end...
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Heyu » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:12 am

I'm not gonna blame the sound camps, the newbies, the scalpers or the bucket list tourists..
It really doesn't matter how it happened. We are here. If all that people can bring to the party is resentment and a sense of entitlement, maybe this is not their home.

Let's move forward.

I bet someone could develop an iPad app that would match the ticket barcode with the buyer of record. Folks at the gate could check ID's quickly this way without the need for for special equipment (I bet a lot of gatekeepers could bring their own iPads and load the app)


I think that being the victim of our own success will not be helped by the press about the lottery shortcomings. A first come first serve sale will give the advantage to those with free time, and the highest broadband. I suspect a higher percentage than in the lottery will end up with scalpers, now that their appetite has been whetted by the press.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby NessaZee » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:39 pm

Stinkyfoot wrote:
As a personal anecdote, I don't think I've heard any non-theme camper complaining about the potential lack of theme camps yet. So scale back, change it around, find people who are going, merge, go solo or just don't go, but quit assuming that it isn't going to be Burning Man without you or your camp or your stage.

^^^
this needed to be said. Somebody else mentioned that it's not the theme camps or stages...it is the ART that makes BM. well, guess what that person does...build installations. :wink: I wholeheartedly agree that all the art installations, theme camps and stages make TTITD pretty fucking rad. But to assume that BM will not be BM without them seems quite arrogant. The massive undertaking of the city infrastructure and the crews that manage all the people while they are there are necessary for TTITD to happen. If this new ticket system contributes to those crews not filling up then yes, it failed.

I have nothing but respect for the time and energy people put into massive-scale art, theme camps and stages. It is truly sad and a very bitter pill to swallow that you are not able to carry out the plans you wanted to because of ticket uncertainty.



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THIS. lol.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:07 pm

Heyu wrote:I bet someone could develop an iPad app that would match the ticket barcode with the buyer of record. Folks at the gate could check ID's quickly this way without the need for for special equipment (I bet a lot of gatekeepers could bring their own iPads and load the app)

The playa's pretty tough on electronics. I wouldn't bring my iPad--if I had one. I don't bring my iPod. And I know at least one photographer who only brings a modern point and shoot. Heck, I have to wonder if my chair's life was shortened by the playa...
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Trishntek » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:19 pm

This sense of entitlement I've read from many veteran burners is pretty laughable. As one who sponsored, planned and built a theme camp my virgin year, that was placed and registered without ever seeing a theme camp, I am here to say, "Just because someone has never been to BRC does not make them dysfunctional idiots!"

Sure, the lottery may leave some veterans with their proverbial dick in their hand. But an influx of newbees is not necessarily a bad thing either. And just because those who complain about newbees must have been dysfunctional idiots their virgin year does not mean all newbees are the same.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby JIHADJIM » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:30 pm

What??? You retard.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Eric » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:35 pm

JIHADJIM wrote:What??? You retard.


an attempt at a pithy rebuttal?
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Galaxo Magic » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:55 pm

Trishntek wrote:This sense of entitlement I've read from many veteran burners is pretty laughable. As one who sponsored, planned and built a theme camp my virgin year, that was placed and registered without ever seeing a theme camp, I am here to say, "Just because someone has never been to BRC does not make them dysfunctional idiots!"

Sure, the lottery may leave some veterans with their proverbial dick in their hand. But an influx of newbees is not necessarily a bad thing either. And just because those who complain about newbees must have been dysfunctional idiots their virgin year does not mean all newbees are the same.

Without a doubt some newbies participate. I brought my band (4 newbies) in 2008 and they were hella prepared. They had a yurt, monkeyhut, El-Wire, decorated bikes and Evap pool. But they are the exception. The number of darkwads increased dramatically last year. Most seemed like it was their first time out. We gave out lots and lots of glow sticks (even though they are moopy).

I am not on either side of this but as an 11-year veteran I have seen a shit-ton. In general, even the most prepared newbies are not prepared enough. There are exceptions....
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby FlyingMonkey » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:05 pm

AntiM wrote:
stretch80 wrote:
BlackRockCityPimp wrote:Heres why the lottery is better...

A buncha sound art camps started showing up. Than more ravers started showing up growing the population of rvs, spectators, and weekenders. We sold out last year due to the fact that the sound camps helped make brc the "coolest rave evah". Now so many ravers want/need to roll in the desert that the sound camps cant get their build crews onsite. Sound camps are threatening to cancel participation rather than wait for tickets or take in new members/builders/etc. Less sound camps = less ravers. How is this a bad thing? Both sound camps and ravers will both have tickets available via STEP since the ravers wont come if theres no sound camps.


I see no negative with this ;) Less sound camps will mean less ravers and that is good! Maybe this will cut down on the Frat-children and tourists.


Finally, a BRCpimp post I can get behind.

(luv ya, in case you think I forgot my hippie oil)


+100. I almost feel like un-plonking him now :-)
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby pink » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:42 pm

Galaxo Magic wrote:
Trishntek wrote:This sense of entitlement I've read from many veteran burners is pretty laughable. As one who sponsored, planned and built a theme camp my virgin year, that was placed and registered without ever seeing a theme camp, I am here to say, "Just because someone has never been to BRC does not make them dysfunctional idiots!"

Sure, the lottery may leave some veterans with their proverbial dick in their hand. But an influx of newbees is not necessarily a bad thing either. And just because those who complain about newbees must have been dysfunctional idiots their virgin year does not mean all newbees are the same.

Without a doubt some newbies participate. I brought my band (4 newbies) in 2008 and they were hella prepared. They had a yurt, monkeyhut, El-Wire, decorated bikes and Evap pool. But they are the exception. The number of darkwads increased dramatically last year. Most seemed like it was their first time out. We gave out lots and lots of glow sticks (even though they are moopy).

I am not on either side of this but as an 11-year veteran I have seen a shit-ton. In general, even the most prepared newbies are not prepared enough. There are exceptions....


Yah, our Retrofrolic newbs had a hexayurt too with a mister system, rug & double bed. Bartended, belly danced and even cooked bacon tho' they're vegetarians. Ate some too. :) They were terrified of being labled sparkleponies. Pretty and sparkly, but definitely not sparkle ponies.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby This Woman » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:00 pm

Many veterans have always had a sense of entitlement - like those here that won't even hear concerns without trying to shut down the talk with words invented specifically to shut down talk, like whinging. But there are also veterans with valid concerns (now being played out) who are being accused of selfishness and entitlement when they are thinking of the event that ALL OF US love currently, as is, for various reasons. Someone uses the large scale sound camps as a perfectly valid example of the issue, and the response is immediate assumption that this one guy is pissed because he can't get his sound camp out there. Funny, turns out he doesn't even have a sound camp; that he in fact has an issue with the lack of diversity among sound camps. Turns out, he's just representing for sound camps because, ahem, they are part of the community, and an affected part at that. But by gosh, it is possible to empathize with a community member you don't particularly have any interest in.

But there is also entitlement about vetran's wanting special treatment with the tickets, as accused. In my camp, one core member specifically said that the older theme camps should get first rights to tickets. Personally, I disagree, but I'm not that surprised by the attitude. After all, vendors do that work for more traditional events, and they get profits. Volunteer theme camps' only rate of return comes in feelings: feeling good about helping to build a community, feeling appreciated by the community for the work you do to entertain them and being appreciated by the infra-structure for your community work.

I think all the talk of newbies is irrelevant, and it's causing a rift tween new and old. Newbies have been a huge part of the burn since the mid nineties when it stopped being a mostly word-of-mouth event. Our "vetran" camp has always had newbies - last year they represented 60% of our force. I don't expect anymore newbies this year than than usual, because they have no time to get tickets. If I found out about Burning Man today, there's no way I'd come up with ticket money by March, and with the tiers, lottery and open sale, I'd probably be too daunted to try and unravel the process anyway. The newbies we will be getting this year are the ones that have been waiting to go for years and have been made privvy to the complicated ticket system, not the ones that watched the Oh The Places You'll Go video.

The volunteer theme camp structure won't work with the lottery. It IS a matter of scale, and it's pretty damn short-sighted to just look at the lottery as a cleansing of old, entitled, better-off-gone theme camps. Even if you are tired of Thunderdome, do you really want the burn to be limited in scale henceforth? A 100% virginal, off the scales, kick ass theme camp would be just as burdened with the lottery structure as would Thunderdome. Burning Man has to figure it out, and they should have figured it out before they changed the system.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby mshaman » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:46 pm

Trishntek wrote:This sense of entitlement I've read from many veteran burners is pretty laughable. As one who sponsored, planned and built a theme camp my virgin year, that was placed and registered without ever seeing a theme camp, I am here to say, "Just because someone has never been to BRC does not make them dysfunctional idiots!"

Sure, the lottery may leave some veterans with their proverbial dick in their hand. But an influx of newbees is not necessarily a bad thing either. And just because those who complain about newbees must have been dysfunctional idiots their virgin year does not mean all newbees are the same.


I wish all virgins were as quick to participate as you. But really, I wish all burners, regardless of their "seniority", were as quick to participate as you. I know a lot of people who just come to the party and have been doing so for years. They are spectators.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby alt12 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:52 pm

This Woman wrote:Newbies have been a huge part of the burn since the mid nineties when it stopped being a mostly word-of-mouth event. Our "vetran" camp has always had newbies - last year they represented 60% of our force.


Huh? Burning Man is not a word-of-mouth event? Well that flies in the face of my experience and that of pretty much everyone I know.... Of course I live in SF so literally we all hear about through word-of-mouth... I'm sure a lot of foreigners read about it in magazines or whatever this is still predominantly a word-of-mouth event. Its not like theirs advertising budget or anything....
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby gyre » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:08 pm

lemur wrote:a shortage of DJs at burning man is about as likely as President Barack Obama showing up to sing a set with Al Green.

I met Al Green and saw him perform recently, I'm happy to say.

I think getting them to perform together wouldn't be impossible.

It won't happen on the playa though.


Re theme camps,
Many people have noticed a decrease in participation by many as they became overwhelmed by too many spectators, compared to the past.
Things have already changed.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby This Woman » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:17 pm

The degree to which it's word of mouth would be an interesting thing to figure out, but I think there are plenty of people who hear about it through other means now. MTV, Time and Newsweek put it on the map in the nineties. Malcolm In The Middle and Survivor and helped it along, now I hear it mentioned all the time in shows, there are travel packages you can purchase with costume, and so on. Yea, I think the word of mouth ship has sailed.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby gyre » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:24 pm

I still meet more people that have never heard of it, than those familiar.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby inog » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:33 pm

mshaman wrote: I wish all virgins were as quick to participate as you. But really, I wish all burners, regardless of their "seniority", were as quick to participate as you. I know a lot of people who just come to the party and have been doing so for years. They are spectators.


I am a virgin.

I will be a spectator. But I plan to be more than a spectator.

And if you think about it, it takes a pretty freaking high level of narcissism to go to an event like Burning Man and not be a spectator.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby The CO » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:38 pm

This Woman wrote:shut down the talk with words invented specifically to shut down talk, like whinging.


From our boy Webster:
"Definition of WHINGE
intransitive verb
British
: to complain fretfully : whine
— whinge noun, British
Origin of WHINGE
Middle English *whingen, from Old English hwinsian; akin to Old High German winsōn to moan
First Known Use: 12th century"

Hardly a modern invention. Sounds like an apt description to some of the complaining I've read in these here ticket forums.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby graidawg » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:04 pm

do we need sound camps? i dont think we do
do we need theme camps? again no we dont
what we do need are people that want go to burning man and be a part of community.
this year i was part of a collaberation of sorts of 3 virgin burners. I went for reasons of my own which i have discussed many times on here, the second person went for spiritual reasons and felt a "need to connect" or some sort of hippie nonsense, the third went to party all night and have sex with as many women as possible. when we spent 2 days in lake Tahoe 4 days after the event did we talk about the sound camps? No we did not. Did we talk about the theme camps? a little but not much though we where all part of one and had friends in others.
so what did we talk about? the people we met, the art we saw (especially the pier) the random completely insane things we saw or did with other people. oh and how we are going to volounteer this year because we want to make BM even better and more fun. how we want to make sure the newbies this year have as awesome a time as we did last year.
my message? the theme camps dont matter, the sound camps dont matter what matters is the people we meet, not the places we will go.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby lemur » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:12 pm

for many people sound camps are the central part of their experience at burning man.

edit: some of them might have never really experienced/considered a burning man outside of that context (im not referring to people who run the camps.. but people who frequent them)
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby graidawg » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:32 pm

lemur wrote:for many people sound camps are the central part of their experience at burning man.

edit: some of them might have never really experienced/considered a burning man outside of that context (im not referring to people who run the camps.. but people who frequent them)


yup thats possible, but lets be honest sound camps can be dome anywhere.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Rice » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:39 pm

I have no doubt that some folks love the sound camps. I prefer the smaller sound stages that have {gasp} live music...

I do not believe I am unreasonable in saying that a determined theme camp (regardless of the size or type) will be on the playa this year. Sure, it might not be as big as in years past, but it will happen...

I am curious as to whom has all the apparently "missing" tickets?? I agree with Eric on the probable 5% scalper factor (which would be roughly 2000 tickets)...

By some people's definition a tourist is "someone who does not directly contribute to art or theme camps", that means that most people who enjoy sound camps are tourists??

Time will tell.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby Trishntek » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:50 pm

inog wrote:
mshaman wrote: I wish all virgins were as quick to participate as you. But really, I wish all burners, regardless of their "seniority", were as quick to participate as you. I know a lot of people who just come to the party and have been doing so for years. They are spectators.


I am a virgin.

I will be a spectator. But I plan to be more than a spectator.

And if you think about it, it takes a pretty freaking high level of narcissism to go to an event like Burning Man and not be a spectator.


okay,,,, call me stupid,,,, i don't understand how narcissism, spectating and participation are related,,,,

not to drift the thread anymore than it is, but participation is preferred at Burning Man.

To wit: http://www.burningman.com/participate/
PARTICIPATE IN BURNING MAN!
People new to Burning Man often assume that it’s a regular “festival” as they've come to know them, a mostly passive experience where everything is planned, orchestrated and pre-packaged by the event producers, and attendees just come and enjoy the show. In fact, the exact opposite is true ... the people who attend Burning Man are no mere “attendees,” but rather active participants in every sense of the word: they create the city, the interaction, the art, the performance and ultimately the “experience.” Participation is at the very core of Burning Man, and there are many ways to participate. In this section you can learn about the opportunities.
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby shykat » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:59 pm

Trishntek wrote:
inog wrote:
mshaman wrote: I wish all virgins were as quick to participate as you. But really, I wish all burners, regardless of their "seniority", were as quick to participate as you. I know a lot of people who just come to the party and have been doing so for years. They are spectators.


I am a virgin.

I will be a spectator. But I plan to be more than a spectator.

And if you think about it, it takes a pretty freaking high level of narcissism to go to an event like Burning Man and not be a spectator.


okay,,,, call me stupid,,,, i don't understand how narcissism, spectating and participation are related,,,,

not to drift the thread anymore than it is, but participation is preferred at Burning Man.

To wit: http://www.burningman.com/participate/
PARTICIPATE IN BURNING MAN!
People new to Burning Man often assume that it’s a regular “festival” as they've come to know them, a mostly passive experience where everything is planned, orchestrated and pre-packaged by the event producers, and attendees just come and enjoy the show. In fact, the exact opposite is true ... the people who attend Burning Man are no mere “attendees,” but rather active participants in every sense of the word: they create the city, the interaction, the art, the performance and ultimately the “experience.” Participation is at the very core of Burning Man, and there are many ways to participate. In this section you can learn about the opportunities.


Maybe, it's like this: you run a theme camp (particepate) but you go watch a burn or two (spectator) or you never leave your them camp and only work and play there. (narcissim?)
I'm the one that has to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life, the way I want to ...Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Real evidence that the lottery is better....

Postby curiousjosh » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 pm

One of my favorite burns was '98.

only one sound camp I can remember was a UFO out in the distance with a sound system.

loved what everyone put into their art/ camps/ and just playa life.

It was weird. every year I take a wednesday night walk around the whole esplenade. (hey, I love it), and I noticed a real step down in people just walking around the esplanade as opposed to out at the sound camp corners. It felt like a noticeable difference.
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