Class Action

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Class Action

Postby placidus » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:56 pm

At a high level I see a large number of potentially damaged people and promises made and broken by an organization making a profit. Is there a way to hold the organization accountable? How do we gain transparency and open access to records and decision makers? What are the bounds for reasonable expectations of people creating camps and art or just attending? Do we have faith that they will rectify the present situation or create a solution that works for next year? How do we effectively apply pressure to see that these concerns are addressed?

I'm just floating an idea here. Perhaps playing devil's community advocate. What about a class action lawsuit?

Promises made:
"Most everyone who wants a ticket will be able to get one"
"This system should help weed out scalpers from the equation"

Damages:
Camps and individuals who have put money into the event will effectively loose this year's value on that investment if they cannot attend
Time spent and potentially wasted has monetary value
Folks attending have a reasonable expectation of art and theme camp presence. Those things may not materialize in the expected abundance thus devaluing the experience
Folks who pay inflated prices to scalpers and other individuals are harmed to effect of the difference they paid from face value

Potential Consequences:
Discovery may open up and expose the internal workings, people, and decision making processes at least to "experts" for examination
Effective pressure may be applied to proper due diligence for next year's process. No experimentation at the expense of the community
Profit from a failed system may be reduced or eliminated

The key idea is that even if lost such an action would drive home the seriousness and responsibility for creating a new process that minimizes harm to the community. They'll need to put money and time into this process if only to protect themselves from future legal action.

Would this be an interesting application of Lawyers for Burners?

Just tossing the idea out there. Flame on.
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Re: Class Action

Postby maryanimal » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:03 pm

*douses the flame with a fire truck hose*
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Re: Classless Action

Postby Lassen Forge » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:08 pm

Um... I thought the idea was to save the burn, not kill it off...

What it sounds like to me... is a good way for some attorney (who are the only real beneficiaries and benefactors of a class action suit) to make his fortune at the expense of the event . And that's either way it goes. Serious.

Plus... You think the org ain't been sued before?

It's like... I dunno... being stranded on an island having one pigeon and one piece of paper, tying a "rescue me" note to the leg of a pigeon, then using the note to start the fire to barbecue the pigeon.

I say this as a burner - your idea sucks. Have a nice day.


(Hey, anyone got some matches?? Seems someone opened a fire hydrant...)
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Re: Class Action

Postby arthur5005 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Image

As if this whole thing wasn't already extremely antagonizing, lets throw lawyers into the mix, that'll fix things!
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Re: Class Action

Postby 1durphul » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:10 pm

placidus wrote:At a high level I see a large number of potentially damaged people and promises made and broken by an organization making a profit. Is there a way to hold the organization accountable?

blarg blah blah bleeerg derpa derp derp.



You have got to be fucking kidding. Put your energy into something positive, start your own event.
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Re: Class Action

Postby inog » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:11 pm

As a lawyer, I can't even begin to start with the ways this is misguided, wrong, etc.

It reminds me of the stories of people wanting to sue because they did get the birthday present they were hoping for.

As a human being I just have to start by saying you should be grateful that so many people put the effort they do into the Burning Man event and that you have in the past, and may again in the future have the opportunity to participate in the event.
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Re: Class Action

Postby graidawg » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:11 pm

maryanimal wrote:*douses the flame with a fire truck hose*


+1


placidus wrote:At a high level I see a large number of potentially damaged people and promises made and broken by an organization making a profit. Is there a way to hold the organization accountable? How do we gain transparency and open access to records and decision makers? What are the bounds for reasonable expectations of people creating camps and art or just attending? Do we have faith that they will rectify the present situation or create a solution that works for next year? How do we effectively apply pressure to see that these concerns are addressed?

I'm just floating an idea here. Perhaps playing devil's community advocate. What about a class action lawsuit?

Promises made:
"Most everyone who wants a ticket will be able to get one"
"This system should help weed out scalpers from the equation"

Damages:
Camps and individuals who have put money into the event will effectively loose this year's value on that investment if they cannot attend
Time spent and potentially wasted has monetary value
Folks attending have a reasonable expectation of art and theme camp presence. Those things may not materialize in the expected abundance thus devaluing the experience
Folks who pay inflated prices to scalpers and other individuals are harmed to effect of the difference they paid from face value

Potential Consequences:
Discovery may open up and expose the internal workings, people, and decision making processes at least to "experts" for examination
Effective pressure may be applied to proper due diligence for next year's process. No experimentation at the expense of the community
Profit from a failed system may be reduced or eliminated

The key idea is that even if lost such an action would drive home the seriousness and responsibility for creating a new process that minimizes harm to the community. They'll need to put money and time into this process if only to protect themselves from future legal action.

Would this be an interesting application of Lawyers for Burners?

Just tossing the idea out there. Flame on.


this is exactly the kind of bullshit the british detest about americans
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Re: Class Action

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:12 pm

inog wrote:As a lawyer, I can't even begin to start with the ways this is misguided, wrong, etc.

It reminds me of the stories of people wanting to sue because they did get the birthday present they were hoping for.

As a human being I just have to start by saying you should be grateful that so many people put the effort they do into the Burning Man event and that you have in the past, and may again in the future have the opportunity to participate in the event.


wait.. did i read that right?

are you implying lawyers arent humans ?

like for realsies ?
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Re: Classless Action

Postby inog » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
It's like... I dunno... being stranded on an island having one pigeon and one piece of paper, tying a "rescue me" note to the leg of a pigeon, then using the note to start the fire to barbecue the pigeon.


Exactly.. but then throwing away the cooked pigeon because you can't find any salt....
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Re: Class Action

Postby pinemom » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:14 pm

::Facepalm::
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Re: Class Action

Postby ZaphodBurner » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:16 pm

placidus wrote: Perhaps playing devil's community advocate.


Yeahbut, you just created the account and this is your first post. How about playing just plain old -advocate- for awhile before coming in and suggesting lawsuits that jeopardize the whole event? I mean, we're all pissed, but, fucking lawsuits?!

Damages:
Camps and individuals who have put money into the event will effectively loose this year's value on that investment if they cannot attend


Most of us haven't invested anything yet. Most people aren't committing to spending time and money until they get a ticket. So, it hurts the city as much as it hurts the camps and individuals.
...

placidus wrote:Folks who pay inflated prices to scalpers and other individuals are harmed to effect of the difference they paid from face value


I don't give two shits about people who pay inflated prices to scalpers. They gamed the system so fuck 'em. Might as well expect sympathy for a john because his prostitute overcharges him.

Let's try to fix this problem without getting lawyers involved. It's bad enough that it already requires VISA, and that the ticketing system is a subsidiary of eBay. In fact, default-world shenanigans are what fucked it all up in the first place.
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Re: Class Action

Postby thisisthatwhichis » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:18 pm

Oh, JESUS!!!...

And the Conspiracy theory threads haven't even started to take hold yet...... :roll:
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Re: Class Action

Postby inog » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:19 pm

lemur wrote:
inog wrote:As a lawyer, I can't even begin to start with the ways this is misguided, wrong, etc.

It reminds me of the stories of people wanting to sue because they did get the birthday present they were hoping for.

As a human being I just have to start by saying you should be grateful that so many people put the effort they do into the Burning Man event and that you have in the past, and may again in the future have the opportunity to participate in the event.


wait.. did i read that right?

are you implying lawyers arent humans ?

like for realsies ?


I am not sure you understand the proper meaning of the word "implying." I am sure you are displaying a lack of basic logic and reading skills.
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Still a Classless Action

Postby Lassen Forge » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:22 pm

thisisthatwhichis wrote:Oh, JESUS!!!...

And the Conspiracy theory threads haven't even started to take hold yet...... :roll:


S-H-H-H-H... we're not supposed to alk-tay about the Artians-may buying all the Ickets-tay with their eekret-say electron beam eapons-way...
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Re: Class Action

Postby Nipple » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:23 pm

lemur wrote:
inog wrote:As a lawyer, I can't even begin to start with the ways this is misguided, wrong, etc.

It reminds me of the stories of people wanting to sue because they did get the birthday present they were hoping for.

As a human being I just have to start by saying you should be grateful that so many people put the effort they do into the Burning Man event and that you have in the past, and may again in the future have the opportunity to participate in the event.


wait.. did i read that right?

are you implying lawyers arent humans ?

like for realsies ?


As the son of a lawyer, I could support the argument that they're not.
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Re: Still a Classless Action

Postby danibel » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
S-H-H-H-H... we're not supposed to alk-tay about the Artians-may buying all the Ickets-tay with their eekret-say electron beam eapons-way...


Thank you for the laugh Sue! I needed it just now!
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Re: Class Action

Postby lemur » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:30 pm

inog wrote:
lemur wrote:
inog wrote:As a lawyer, I can't even begin to start with the ways this is misguided, wrong, etc.

It reminds me of the stories of people wanting to sue because they did get the birthday present they were hoping for.

As a human being I just have to start by saying you should be grateful that so many people put the effort they do into the Burning Man event and that you have in the past, and may again in the future have the opportunity to participate in the event.


wait.. did i read that right?

are you implying lawyers arent humans ?

like for realsies ?


I am not sure you understand the proper meaning of the word "implying." I am sure you are displaying a lack of basic logic and reading skills.


maybe this ?
Image




i guess i could be wrong and the jokes on me........
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Re: Class Action

Postby mshaman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:32 pm

They'd be more likely to see a suit if they were to recall the lottery and do it over by those whose ticket awards were cancelled. Scalpers might prove damages, lost income. I'm not saying those chances are high, mind you, because I'm not the camp attorney, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't even consider taking something like this on.

So now Llc has to lay low, try to do damage control, stem the tide of anger that's coming at it, and try to steer clear of frivolous suits.

Growing up my father once said of a stupid act I'd done as I was lamenting the consequences, "Son, you made yourself a shit sandwich, and now you've got to eat it." We'll see how much shit the Llc eats. I don't think it's in the form of a suit. It's in the form of lost trust and respect.
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Re: Class Action

Postby This Woman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:42 pm

I'm sure money has already been lost. I just saw a post on another thread from some off continent folks (i forget the country) that already paid for motorhome and plane tickets, but did not get their lottery tickets. It remains to be seen if their money is actually lost because they will keep trying for the tickets...but you know they are not alone. similarly, the theme camps do spend money all year long, and that's not news. Money will be lost, make no mistake.

This should in no way, shape or form be seen as me advocating a class action suit. I am as repulsed by that idea as most commenting here.
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Re: Class Action

Postby Saguache » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:44 pm

I'll admit that I'm frustrated, that I've lost sleep and money and just a little bit of sanity, but dude SEEK AID. You're balls are way to big if at any time this would be a unqualified good idea. You need a team of physicians to examine them, prod them a bit, potentially bleed some of the moxie from your greatly expanded scrotum. Seriously, that's a pair of cajones!!

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Re: Class Action

Postby Sham » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:49 pm

I just received a settlement check from an organized class action suit. After all the lawyers, expenses and other fees were paid, the check that came via U.S. Mail was for 5 cents. While I never cashed the check, I called the 800 number and spent an hour on the phone with the rep. having her explain how they came up with this number.
No offense to the lawyers here, but they are the only ones who make money on a class action law suit.
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Re: Class Action

Postby ygmir » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:53 pm

maryanimal wrote:*douses the flame with a fire truck hose*


I can help............
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Re: Class Action

Postby VultureChow » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:54 pm

Shambala wrote:I just received a settlement check from an organized class action suit. After all the lawyers, expenses and other fees were paid, the check that came via U.S. Mail was for 5 cents. While I never cashed the check, I called the 800 number and spent an hour on the phone with the rep. having her explain how they came up with this number.
No offense to the lawyers here, but they are the only ones who make money on a class action law suit.



Yeah... Much better to file in small claims court. Half the time the big guys don't bother to send someone. $15 in NJ. Maximum reward $3000.

We even use it in our business.
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Re: Class Action

Postby kerb » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:54 pm

What the actual fuck
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Re: Class Action

Postby alt12 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:55 pm

Jesus fucking Christ I hope this is a troll post and not a genuine proposal.... If so, please self-immolate and try again next lifetime....
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Re: Class Action

Postby bigmama22 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:55 pm

Oh, I know I'm going to get it, but here goes:
I signed up as a willing participant in a lottery system that made no promise to me to bring any of my expectations to reality. I signed up for the "lottery" and didn't have to pay a dime toward winning before I won. (Sorry, yes, I did receive 2 tickets for myself and my best friend, and her submission was denied for her daughter and her friend. We only applied twice for a total of 4 in our party, and weirdly 50% of us got tickets.) Thinking I was MISS-LUCKY, I went to my local Circle K and bought a Powerball lottery ticket. But, I had to pay $2.00 up front to take my chance at winning the jackpot. I didn't win. Am I contemplating suing my state's lottery board on the grounds of false advertising? No. Do I want my money back because I did not win the $8.5 million dollar jackpot? No. It was a chance I took.

lot·ter·y   /ˈlɒtəri/ Show Spelled[lot-uh-ree] Show IPA
noun, plural -ter·ies.
1. a gambling game or method of raising money, as for some public charitable purpose, in which a large number of tickets are sold and a drawing is held for certain prizes.
2. any scheme for the distribution of prizes by chance.
3. any happening or process that is or appears to be determined by chance: to look upon life as a lottery
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Re: Class Action

Postby ygmir » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:59 pm

alt12 wrote:Jesus fucking Christ I hope this is a troll post and not a genuine proposal.... If so, please self-immolate and try again next lifetime....


nasal aspiration of tonic water.........thanks Alt12.................hhahahahaaa
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Re: Class Action

Postby This Woman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:03 pm

inog, do you think Palicidus (who has only posted once) might be a lawyer looking to make some money? Or would lawyers run from such a thing? My knowledge of class action suits is scant. I think lawyers are the only ones that make any money and that they are only otherwise useful when they can bring about things like policy changes, safety procedures and the like - not about monetary profit.
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Re: Class Action

Postby Mojojita » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:07 pm

inog wrote:As a lawyer, I can't even begin to start with the ways this is misguided, wrong, etc.

It reminds me of the stories of people wanting to sue because they did get the birthday present they were hoping for.

As a human being I just have to start by saying you should be grateful that so many people put the effort they do into the Burning Man event and that you have in the past, and may again in the future have the opportunity to participate in the event.


Yup, agreed 100% - wrong in so many ways AND mean spirited, spiteful, complete misuse of the legal system:

One of the things I hate most about the practice of civil law are the people who just try to use it as a weapon to punish someone - or think they have hit the lawsuit lottery. How in the bloody hell do you think that so many have been SO damaged as to make a suit viable??? Oh darn, they didn't get to go on the vacation they planned on????? Oh, they spent money without knowing they could get in????

Ok, yes, the ticketing problems this year really suck. That does not mean I want to create more problems for an event I care a lot about and have spent years volunteering for. That is the only possible joy you would get out of such a suit. Take it somewhere else and play with it, Newbie. If such a suit ever saw the light of day, I, for one, would be very happy to volunteer to assist in it's defense - and many more like me. You are biting off way more than you want to chew. If you need to right a wrong, go to Syria.
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Re: Class Action

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:10 pm

placidus wrote:At a high level I see a large number of potentially damaged people and promises made and broken by an organization making a profit.

On top of everything else... Just because they are an llc doesn't mean that they are making a profit. The money goes to making the party happen. I do not see any evidence that there is some overseas bank account collecting box tops from over eager burners.
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