2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Want to talk about tickets? You've come to the right place

2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Pipey » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:05 pm

As a member of a core team of one of the larger scale sound camps (DISTRIKT), curious as to the affect of this ticket system on our peers/fellow theme camp teams. We began work on 2012 almost as soon as we were home from 2011's burn. We've painstakingly hindsighted and strategized and would be starting our plans NOW were it not for only 40% of us receiving tickets.

The time that would have been spent in February-April beginning to lay plans, starting to build, recruiting an A-team are now being spent in stress mode of finding tickets for those members of our core team who did not win the lottery but who we absolutely MUST HAVE on playa to make our camp & the experience we gift to burners, happen.

While we realize that music is not recognized as art or worthy of guaranteed artists tickets, we are presented with a conundrum on how to make this all work in the unknown. Combine that with the fact that just doing the math of the lottery would make it seem as though 90K of folks applied for 40K of tickets (based on today's anecdotal commentary that 40-50% of most groups/camps have received tix). If that's true, the likelihood of all key members of our crew getting out to the playa is slim.

Opening up to the theme camp audience to hear voices & opinion. This is something that should be reviewed by BMOrg I feel as it will significantly reduce the experiential aspects of Burning Man if theme camps can't adequately plan, create, and deliver.
Pipey
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:34 am

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Nickag » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:43 pm

Pipey wrote:As a member of a core team of one of the larger scale sound camps (DISTRIKT), curious as to the affect of this ticket system on our peers/fellow theme camp teams. We began work on 2012 almost as soon as we were home from 2011's burn. We've painstakingly hindsighted and strategized and would be starting our plans NOW were it not for only 40% of us receiving tickets.

The time that would have been spent in February-April beginning to lay plans, starting to build, recruiting an A-team are now being spent in stress mode of finding tickets for those members of our core team who did not win the lottery but who we absolutely MUST HAVE on playa to make our camp & the experience we gift to burners, happen.

While we realize that music is not recognized as art or worthy of guaranteed artists tickets, we are presented with a conundrum on how to make this all work in the unknown. Combine that with the fact that just doing the math of the lottery would make it seem as though 90K of folks applied for 40K of tickets (based on today's anecdotal commentary that 40-50% of most groups/camps have received tix). If that's true, the likelihood of all key members of our crew getting out to the playa is slim.

Opening up to the theme camp audience to hear voices & opinion. This is something that should be reviewed by BMOrg I feel as it will significantly reduce the experiential aspects of Burning Man if theme camps can't adequately plan, create, and deliver.


I'm also very interested about how they expect large scale groups to get tickets and plan for BM when the ticket system is random. Seems bizarre.
User avatar
Nickag
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:35 pm

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:47 pm

So, maybe this coming year will be a year of small surprises. Maybe there won't be a lot of big bars, but there might be all sorts of little bars wandering the playa, ala "A Shot in the Dark". The event existed before theme camps. In fact, the advent of theme camps was so unnoticed at the time that htere is disagreement about what the first theme camp was. Maybe you and your neighbors will improvise a theme camp on playa. Maybe you'll connect with different people and do a different theme camp.
One of the things I love about the burn is that it brings us face to face with the fact that nothing is certain. "No expectations".
The Lady with a Lamprey

"The powerful are exploiting people, art and ideas, and this leads to us plebes debating how to best ration ice.
Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri


Get a Taint, you pathetic cur!
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 39959
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby ignite00 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:00 pm

Pipey- good luck and i hope your group gets everything worked out and that this new element of uncertainty doesn't throw you off too much. I'll be interested to see how all the incredibly creative and resourceful theme camps are able to accomodate these changes.


theCryptofishist- thanks for your perspective. I really hope that people view this as a new challenge and opportunity versus doom and gloom. I hope the overall vibe amongst the community improves after everyone has had their opportunity to vent and get support from one another.
User avatar
ignite00
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:48 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Mr. Possibility » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:So, maybe this coming year will be a year of small surprises. Maybe there won't be a lot of big bars, but there might be all sorts of little bars wandering the playa, ala "A Shot in the Dark". The event existed before theme camps. In fact, the advent of theme camps was so unnoticed at the time that htere is disagreement about what the first theme camp was. Maybe you and your neighbors will improvise a theme camp on playa. Maybe you'll connect with different people and do a different theme camp.
One of the things I love about the burn is that it brings us face to face with the fact that nothing is certain. "No expectations".


Nice one, fishy, bang on. You kinda laid the smack down on this convo though.
User avatar
Mr. Possibility
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:49 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Pipey » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:04 pm

No smack down. All opinion is welcome here including one of challenge to my point of view. I agree that adversity creates shift & something new & different each time. It's a great way of looking at this situation.

I love the crew I work with and I know them well enough to know everyone will more than rise to the occasion to "make it work".

I think the key frustration point is whether this has caused needless stress on both our micro community and the burn community at large. While I am a HUGE fan of radical self-reliance, there is something to be said for the joyful community that has resulted year upon year at BM. This joy seems squelched at the moment, more so than in the days of first come/first serve, whatever your camp size is. I hope that effect is not lasting.
Last edited by Pipey on Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pipey
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:34 am

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby vapor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:11 pm

It is indeed an interesting question. On one hand, the org as far as I know has never officially supported any size or type of camp, that is up to the participants to figure out. On the other hand it seems that many of the large scale camps provide a large part of the attraction to the event. And not being able to plan far enough in advance for enough people and certain people attending means these camps may just stop. That would change the nature of the event dramatically. Not saying better or worse. Maybe that is part of the theme, maybe a known or subconscious goal of the lottery was to completely randomize who goes and thus change the event. I realize that if large camps really wanted most people to go they would have tried to get in 4 or 5 entries for every person they needed. It doesn't seem like that happened with the reports so far. Maybe the large demand for tickets was from people who have not been before and really want to make sure they go this year due to the sell out hype. And if that means many large camps cancel then the experience they may have been anticipating won't be there.

I realize that was a bit off topic, the so back on topic, the camps I have been a part of over the past years (Opulent Temple and Hair of the Dog) so far have quite a few people not getting tickets. Enough so that if the situation doesn't change it is unlikely the camps could happen, as per the OP. But so far no discussions of going or not, I'd bet that most large camps will try and hold out until the final sale before making a decision.

I've been going for 16 years, I love the event, I really like the large scale camps and the over the top art projects. I trust somehow the community will work it out for this year. And if not, well, we are a large global community, we'll figure out a way to channel our creative energies and keep going.
User avatar
vapor
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:19 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: Opulent Temple

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby pinemom » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:15 pm

Mr. Possibility wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:So, maybe this coming year will be a year of small surprises. Maybe there won't be a lot of big bars, but there might be all sorts of little bars wandering the playa, ala "A Shot in the Dark". The event existed before theme camps. In fact, the advent of theme camps was so unnoticed at the time that htere is disagreement about what the first theme camp was. Maybe you and your neighbors will improvise a theme camp on playa. Maybe you'll connect with different people and do a different theme camp.
One of the things I love about the burn is that it brings us face to face with the fact that nothing is certain. "No expectations".


Nice one, fishy, bang on. You kinda laid the smack down on this convo though.


+2

No expectations.
Names pinemom, but my friends call me "Piney".
User avatar
pinemom
 
Posts: 8256
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:36 am
Location: Booby Bar 2007-2011

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Jalana » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:27 pm

Less than 15% of our theme camp has tickets so far. I am holding on to the hope we will all somehow get tickets. But it may not happen in time to prepare or create like we usually do. We had a lot of big plans for this year. none of our core organizers, planners, etc... received tickets in the lottery, So honestly at this point there will probably be one less theme camp on the Playa. :(

Jalana (Chief Kandy Ass of Campasaurus)
Jalana
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 5:28 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby drutter » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:33 pm

Lottery ended our theme camp plans for this year, but we might still scratch something unofficial together, depending on who's able to go. We're about 30% ticketed at this point. :?
Good luck all.
Heavy on preparations, light on expectations.
User avatar
drutter
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:19 am
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby mshaman » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:42 pm

The Colorado camps have been devastated by the lottery. Our crew has talked to several of our sister camps, and we're pretty much all in the same boat. We're talking some big camps, some over 100 people. Our camp of 35 got less than 10 tickets. We can't field our camp with that. Not sure what we'll do.

P.S. By less than 10 tickets, I mean we have 4 confirmed tickets out of 35, and we still need to hear back from about 5 people. We may have 4 out of 35. But I'm being half-full. Less than 10.
The road of life is littered with flat squirrels who couldn't decide.
mshaman
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:54 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby trilobyte » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:49 pm

The reality that camps were faced with after the event sold out in July (and in any year where the event could potentially sell out) is that camp or project organizers have to wrangle with making sure campmates signing up for essential pieces of the puzzle will have a ticket. Last year some camps had real difficulty with that, because they were taken by surprise and there wasn't a lot of time to make necessary arrangements.

We each have got to figure out what we're comfortable with, both for ourselves and our respective camps and projects.

Right now, I believe about half my camp hast tickets. If we had to leave for the playa tomorrow, yeah we'd be stuck. But we're not. My campmates are a resourceful bunch, and I trust that over the course of the next several months the ones who want to go will get a ticket sorted out (either through their network of friends, the ticket exchange, or the open sale which has 10K tickets selling first come, first serve). I wouldn't turn away the help and support of either an existing campmate or a potential new member right now if they didn't have a ticket, but there will be that conversation. And I'll probably touch base with people from time to time. Realistically, regardless of what someone may have signed up for, I'm not going to cross it off my list as 'handled' unless that person has their ticket. Come May or June, we'll take stock of peoples' situations. It's possible that if we get to summertime and someone hasn't sorted out their ticket, I'll have to get someone else to cover what they'd signed up for. I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.

Absolutely we plan on making it this year - in fact, we're planning on increasing in size. We started working on our ideas as soon as we got back, and continue to work on our plans for this year. We're still in the design stage, but in the next month or so I hope to start work on building some of the pieces of the new art and structures.
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 13462
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby hotfastyum » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:52 pm

This is a really interesting question and I look forward to hearing what others have to say.

I've been going for 11 years, and neither my wife nor myself received tickets this year. As the day has worn on, I feel more and more certain that even if I won tickets, that I would consider selling them (at face value of course) and not going at all.

I strongly feel that with this ill-conceived, divisive lottery, the BMorg has strayed far from the core values that they themselves espouse. People spend all year organizing their large-scale artistic contributions - the major camps / large pieces of artwork. These are the elements of the festival that make it special. Having organized a large camp a few years ago, I know first-hand the level of time / $ / effort that goes into producing such an endeavor. If i was thinking of doing one this year, I would seriously consider calling it off. Why would anyone in their right mind slave for 9 months on a project that they might not get to even bring to an event? This is deeply saddening, because the very people that SHOULD be going to the playa, the ones that WORK to bring their art there, now have to face uncertainty and hardship, all at the hands of the Bmorg and their lottery.

Outside of bringing large-scale art to the playa, I want to make a related point about community. What about my small social group of around 40 people that has been going to Burning Man and camping together for over a decade? Guess what - 15 or so of us got tickets and the rest did not. I can;t fathom why the Org created and sponsored a ticketing system that by it's very nature was guaranteed to rip groups apart? Multiply that times 10,000 as I'm sure we're not the only group like this. Far from it.

The idiocy of the situation could have been simply replaced by a first-come, first-serve ticketing system with underlying sales server architecture that could support an influx of buyers that outstripped the demand. This is not unattainable technology - it's just expensive to implement. We all hate Ticketmaster, but guess what - they figured out how to sell tickets to the Rolling Stones 20 years ago when 60,000 people want to buy 30,000 tickets. To me, that is the true shame here - the BMorg refused to spend the $ necessary to hire a ticketing vendor that could have handled the initial sales volume without crashing. How to stop scalping? Match every ticket at the gate with an ID. I would happily volunteer for a shift doing that! Can't go? Fine - you can get a refund from the Org but you can't sell your ticket to anyone except back to the Org and it goes back into the ticket pool at face value.

The nice thing (for the Org) about STEP is that they will be sure to make more $ in fees for resales. Why not? They seem to be all about making $. Here's a great way to make more $ off of something (tickets) that already has an inflated service charge.

In summary, I'm really saddened at this whole process, as it just seems counter-intuitive to what Burning Man is supposed to be about - community, and art that makes you go "WOW." You know - marvelling at the human potential? It's pretty hard to do that when the Org won't let more than half the people that want to build that art even go to the event in a misguided effort to be "fair." At the risk of sounding cynical, I sincerely hope that other large-scale camp organizers boycott bringing their art to the playa this year. Don't reward the Org with all of your hard work and effort. Take it to Regionals and other community events in your towns and cities instead!
hotfastyum
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 9:59 am

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby shykat » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:14 pm

I like this topic....and want to hear from more theme camps...



Time to make new friends......
I'm the one that has to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life, the way I want to ...Jimi Hendrix
User avatar
shykat
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:44 am
Location: Santa Clarita,CA

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby mshaman » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:00 pm

trilobyte wrote:The reality that camps were faced with after the event sold out in July (and in any year where the event could potentially sell out) is that camp or project organizers have to wrangle with making sure campmates signing up for essential pieces of the puzzle will have a ticket. Last year some camps had real difficulty with that, because they were taken by surprise and there wasn't a lot of time to make necessary arrangements.


Trilobyte,
Respectfully, that isn't a reality my camp had to wrangle with last year. We all ordered tickets the day they went on sale, and had exactly the number we needed. We didn't buy more and hoard them, we didn't get less because of a ticket shortage that wouldn't present itself for another 6 months. If someone didn't decide they were interested and wanted to contribute until July, they were, by definition, non-essential, because we had already done most of the work by then and such people were peripheral at best. The ability to master our destiny by planning and acting was taken from us this year by the implementation of a poorly designed lottery system. I maintain that it will show up in the size and quality of art, mutant vehicles, and theme camps this year.
The road of life is littered with flat squirrels who couldn't decide.
mshaman
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:54 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby zorca » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:51 pm

not everyone in the liminal labs camp has signed in yet, but i didn't win a ticket, nor did quite a few others in our crew. it's like a family reunion for us each year with campmates coming in from all over the world. we've been camping together for more than ten years now. this would have been my 14th year. ticket time was always exciting. this is disheartening. hopefully we'll find at least a few more tickets, but it puts a damper on both planning and mindset. heartset.
cheers, zorca
User avatar
zorca
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:12 am
Location: 8:30 and The Wheell

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby alt12 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 pm

mshaman wrote:
trilobyte wrote:The reality that camps were faced with after the event sold out in July (and in any year where the event could potentially sell out) is that camp or project organizers have to wrangle with making sure campmates signing up for essential pieces of the puzzle will have a ticket. Last year some camps had real difficulty with that, because they were taken by surprise and there wasn't a lot of time to make necessary arrangements.


Trilobyte,
Respectfully, that isn't a reality my camp had to wrangle with last year. We all ordered tickets the day they went on sale, and had exactly the number we needed. We didn't buy more and hoard them, we didn't get less because of a ticket shortage that wouldn't present itself for another 6 months. If someone didn't decide they were interested and wanted to contribute until July, they were, by definition, non-essential, because we had already done most of the work by then and such people were peripheral at best. The ability to master our destiny by planning and acting was taken from us this year by the implementation of a poorly designed lottery system. I maintain that it will show up in the size and quality of art, mutant vehicles, and theme camps this year.



Agreed. Camp of about 60 here and we'd had maybe 2-3 unprepared people with last-minute freak-outs. Its just very rare if you've been going to burning man year after year not to get your ticket early and not to remind your known virgins to do the same.... This year I don't know what will happen. It is too early. Needles to say, however, we're not jumping on preparations for this year until we know we have enough key people with tickets... As is, I would estimate based on current reports that 70% of our camp did not get tickets (myself included) in the lottery.

I find both the glass half-full and half-empty arguments unconvincing. I hate this lottery but the reality is nobody fucking knows what's going to happen. BMORG doesn't know. The staff doesn't know. Volunteers don't know. Nobody knows how this will shake out. This new lottery has (needlessly in my opinion) put us all in uncharted territory..... There is no telling if we will all breezily get face value tickets in March or if the scalpers have totally gamed this system and people will be forced to not go or pay $800/ticket out of desperation in July.... Too much uncertainty. Safe to say, we'll know a lot more in 2-3 months. This of course pushes a lot theme camps preparations out by several months... That is definitely not a positive as many theme camps and art projects need the full year to get everything done....
User avatar
alt12
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:58 pm
Location: Thailand
Burning Since: 2003

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby igor47 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:33 pm

from what i'm hearing on eplaya, our camp is pretty lucky. collectively, for 21 people we have 10 tickets. we spent a bunch of money last year build a reusable theme camp, plus we're working on additional art this year that doesn't make sense anywhere but burning man. so.. hopefully we'll still be able to attend and bring all the projects we've invested so much work and money into.

since every other theme camp i know personally or have heard from on eplaya is reporting the same state of affairs, i'm not sure whether my community will be able to supply us with tickets like it has in the past. hopefully, the number of awesome, indispensable people in all the theme camps equals 10k :?:
igor47
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:38 pm
Location: SF

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Eisenfaust » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:12 am

I'm in no way any kind of official spokesperson or anything like that, but the current tally at Thunderdome is something like 6 tickets for the 26 people who have, so far, added their info to our ticket-tracking spreadsheet. That's 5 awarded via lottery, and 1 via presale. Obviously our camp is pretty big (bigger than 26 people) but this award rate is pretty hilarious.
Eisenfaust
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:49 pm

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby tattoogoddess » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:40 am

It's not really a Theme camp but a respected group. Christina: Queen of BRC.
Image


The whole crew/group did not win any tickets. and one person said their camp of 30 - no tickets; another camp of 30 got 2.

I'm starting to get a bit worried. My retrospective camp so far out of the few hundred I have heard of about some where in the ball pack of 20 getting tickets as of tonight. Im not going to lie part of what drew me to BM was the large sound camps so I could go dance my ass off with a few thousand people at night. Trying to stay positive through all of this but it really flipping sucks to see SOOO many people with no tickets and most likely not many to go around for STEP and so few for the 3rd sale.
maladroit- Burning Man is like a second job, except you pay to work there.
Burning Man is just the pre party for exodus! - fellow burner during exodus
User avatar
tattoogoddess
 
Posts: 2084
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Iowa
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: House Of Stark

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby bluesbob » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:43 am

We have a core group of about 12-15 people who drive all our shipping container out to the playa and set-up our camp every year. They are the ones who can get the time off and enjoy doing it for our camp. We have several yurts, one large hut, a very large tent, and a couple of small ones. Plus there is all the furniture, sofas and chairs and rugs. They also bring the generators.

As of this writing...only about 40% of the over 100 people who camp with us has a ticket...and not one of our early-entry builders has one.
"aw shucks.." - Eric
bluesbob
 
Posts: 591
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 2:32 pm
Location: Fullerton, CA.
Burning Since: 2009
Camp Name: AV

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Twilight » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:59 am

Today was a very sad day at our office, which serves as the hub for two theme camps. Last year, these camps totalled well over 100 people. Over the years, we've bought and built up over 80,000 pounds of infrastructure that we've used to stage our camps.

As of this evening with almost all precincts reporting, we scored just over 10% of the tickets we needed.

We're not interested in paying substantially more for the pleasure of busting our tails and bank accounts to make this all happen again. No matter what, we can't stage these camps and all their public structures with so few people, nor would we even want to try.

If we fared so poorly in the "fair" lottery, can we expect to do any better when the final 10K tickets go on sale?

There isn't a single camp member right now who isn't questioning heavily whether they will attend the event this year. I hope we're in the minority of theme camps.

It seems from all the reporting so far that theme camps are getting roughly 10-25% of the tickets they needed. If even just 20% of the theme camps drop out and are replaced by first-timers--spectators, not major contributors--willing to pay inflated ticket prices in the secondary markets, what will that do to the event?

We'll find out soon enough.
User avatar
Twilight
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 7:33 pm

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Zoo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:06 am

It's not about the percentage of camp members that have tickets, it's about the percentage of contributing camp members. In most any organized camp I've ever been in or known well, about 20% of the people do 80% of the work. If - by luck of the draw - that 20% isn't able to go, then that camp is going to be hurting. I don't even know that it's going to be that big a problem. People need to stop panicking, there's not 150,000 people planning to go to BM this year. I'd be surprised if there's more than 60k, tops. It's just everyone asking all their friends who're taking the year off to try to get a ticket for them as well, creating an order bloat.

The only real difference with the lottery is that it doesn't reward those who can take a tuesday morning off of work. You've got a reasonable chance to get a ticket, so relax.

As for my camp, I don't think it's going to happen this year. But I knew that since before the '11 Burn, too many core people were taking 2012 off.
Zoo
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:02 pm

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby tattoogoddess » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:18 am

Ok so it seems as if 25% -30% of people got tickets who tried. I thought they said h like 1:7 tickets per person. So that would me 68,000 "people" applied for the second round at one ticket or 34,000 for two tickets. Numbers are just not making sense right now with reports from here and reports from facebook. Kinda rubbing my head. Where are all the tickets or did 72,000+ people want to go as of right now with the two drawings? Am I the only one who has been giving this though? I know everyone who did the Christmas sale got one. or at least I have not seen anyone not getting one. Was this maybe the way of covering transparicy to make more money?? Idk maybe Im WAY off but yeah numbers are not figuring right.
maladroit- Burning Man is like a second job, except you pay to work there.
Burning Man is just the pre party for exodus! - fellow burner during exodus
User avatar
tattoogoddess
 
Posts: 2084
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Iowa
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: House Of Stark

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Trishntek » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:22 am

Seeing as this is only the beginning of the ticket acquisition process, we have maybe 30% of our camp populated with ticket holders. Being the burners they are, those who do not have one will endeavor to get one. In the past we've all had relative control of our ticket acquisitions. Now the luck of the draw has control and we just stew in our juices hoping for good fortune.

Retrofrolic is a camp that can be anywhere from five to 35 people. We can adjust accordingly. The one thing that does stick in my craw,,,, how can we apply for placement without knowing whether our people and resources will all be there? I guess we simply hope for the best and plan for the worst. It would look kind of odd having 10 campers in a placed lot for 35.

Maybe I'll get a setup for a basketball court just in case we have abundant space.
RETROFROLIC, the place of Pink, Pain and Pleasure!
http://www.retrofrolic.com
Some call me Tnt,,,, works for me!
User avatar
Trishntek
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:27 pm
Location: Ventura, CA, USA
Burning Since: 2010
Camp Name: Retrofrolic!

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby lemur » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:20 am

tattoogoddess wrote:I thought they said h like 1:7 tickets per person.


they said on averate each request for tickets was requesting 1.7 tickets

it could have been 5 million requests for 1.7 tickets each on average

it could have been 500 requests for 1.7 tickets on average..

who knows.. but, they didnt give enough numbers to figure it out anyways..



1.7 tickets on average for each request.
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby bleurose51 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:16 am

The 1.7 number quoted was the average number of tickets order per request, i.e., if 100 people ordered tickets, then 70 ordered 2 tickets and 30 ordered 1 ticket, i.e., 70*2 + 30 = 170/100 = 1.7. That number in no way told us how many ticket requests were actually submitted. As noted, it could have been 5000 or 5,000,000 and the average tickets per order would still be valid.

I hear everyone's pain, but I want to point out that as much as everyone wants to blame the "stupid lottery system", I don't think that has anything to do with the problem that has arisen. The problem is simple: last year for the first time, the event sold out, and that has brought out the big-time scalpers in HUGE numbers. They are professionals at gaming a ticketing system, no matter how sophisticated BM thinks its system is. They have huge contingents of people on contract to all purchase tickets in mass quantities. The one thing that the lottery system MAY have done that was unfortunate is actually make it TRIVIAl for a large number of scalper 'reps' to order tickets easily. Since the lottery had essentially no waiting time, all you need is a large number of people with a large number of credit cards to submit many many thousands of 2 ticket orders and oversubscribe the lottery. If all those people had to fight the old "first-come first-serve" system, their time investment might not have been adequately compensated. However, I still believe that the sell-out last year prompted the oversubscription, and that whether we had a lottery or a first-come first served system, the same thing would have happened as the scalpers mixed together with the real burners and many real burners would not have been able to buy tickets.

We have never had a situation like this before. This is the first time the previous year's event has sold out, and the impact of that is totally unknown, but probably easily predictable. If there is money to be made, there will be profiteers who will make every attempt to suck all the money out.

The ONLY solutions are (a) increase the number of tickets so substantially that it would scare off the scalpers for fear of having too many tickets they couldn't sell (unfortunately that is not an option given BLM regulation, (b) stop selling tickets in advance and only sell them at the gate, which would clearly prevent scalping, but would be just as much havoc on the community since people could actually trek all the way to the playa and be turned away, and (c) (the best one IMHO) sell non-transferable tickets with some form of identification required. The best idea for this last approach is to require that you submit a photo when you purchase tickets and that photo would be printed onto the ticket. You could purchase TWO tickets for yourself with your photo on them, and you could bring ANY guest, but you would have to be there with the guest at the gate, otherwise the second ticket would be useless. This would permit a limited amount of adjustment (within theme camps for instance) but would completely prevent scalpers. The only way to get out of going once you have a photo ticket is to return the ticket to Burning Man and get a refund. You would NOT be permitted to designate a "transferee" (that would defeat the whole idea and permit scalpers to game the system again).

My point is that the lottery itself wasn't the cause of the ticket shortage or the extraordinarily weird distribution of recipients. If 150,000 ticket requests had been made to buy tickets using the old system in the first 48 hours of sale, many many of our camp friends would not have gotten their tickets either as many tickets would go to (a) newbies and (b) scalpers.

I think some of the comments are actually on point. This is just another challenge for the people who claim to be true Burners to meet.

I would like to add one more thing. Several comments mentioned that large theme camps are what makes Burning Man "special" and I take issue with that. I love some of what has been done at large theme camps, but I also don't like all of it. That's my choice of course, and I have no argument with the camps doing what they want to do (that is the hallmark of Burning Man). But to say that it is the "right thing" for those camps to have some special privilege to do that is wrong. I think SMALL camps are important and people who come with absolutely NO idea what they are doing or what they want to do are important too, in fact just as important and maybe more important. Individual people I meet at Burning Man who I talk with at the temple or who I just encounter at a bar or sitting out on the Esplenade, those people are what make Burning man special for me, and frankly I spend very little time at the large theme camps. This past year I didn't even see any of the camps except for a very few around where we were camped until Sunday when many of the camps were already breaking down.

I think what has made Burning Man interesting is precisely that it ISN'T defined in some categorical way. I don't think that BM did this with the intent of "shaking things up" but if that is what happens, then radical self-reliance just has to step in and help us adjust things. If many of the large camps don't show up this year, will that be bad? No, I don't think so. It will be different, but it won't be bad. If they do, that is good too, but in the end, it should ALL be good, no matter what happens. I do feel the pain and sorrow of people who have gone for many years and now may not get a chance to go, but there have been years I have missed attending because of other reasons in my life, and I am still alive and well and missing Burning Man didn't fuck my life up in any terrible way. In fact, if anything, coming back after a hiatus was a good thing. It was a rebirth each time, and that was exciting.

Maybe that is what the universe has in store for all of us this year. Its a wild ride, and we all just have to strap ourselves in, hang on and enjoy it wherever it takes us.

Bleurose
User avatar
bleurose51
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:21 am

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby Raymaker » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:25 am

lemur wrote:
tattoogoddess wrote:I thought they said h like 1:7 tickets per person.


they said on averate each request for tickets was requesting 1.7 tickets

it could have been 5 million requests for 1.7 tickets each on average

it could have been 500 requests for 1.7 tickets on average..

who knows.. but, they didnt give enough numbers to figure it out anyways..

1.7 tickets on average for each request.


So that's the problem then, all those wasted 0.3 parts of the ticket!!!
User avatar
Raymaker
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: London. UK

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby BBadger » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:59 am

Non-transferrable, IDed tickets gets tossed out as a solution quite a bit. The problem I have with that is that I do want transferable tickets. Last year in particular, my friend didn't even see the ticket I bought for him until we were at the gates of BM itself. In other cases, there were people who obtained their tickets so close to the event starting that they had to provide scanned ID information sent by the seller in order to prove that a Will Call Ticket was indeed transferred.

Nor do I want IDed tickets because if I'm buying tickets for a friend, why should I have to upload a photo and ID info if I might need to change that ticket over to someone else? We had people drop out on us last year. Like I've said in other posts, some friends simply aren't on the ball about buying tickets too, even if they are ready to go when the time is right. Should spouses have to apply for tickets separately?

Now lets say we make "nontransferable" mean we can only use official channels for transferring tickets. This would be different than STEP, because you would have a choice in who gets the ticket (I believe STEP may be just a random distribution for whoever signs up and how many are available at the time). The problem is that there can still be outside transactions made in addition to the actual sale/transfer. For example, tickets are very scarce, and there is a "ticket" on sale for $640 on there, where you pay $250 via paypal, and then the remaining $390 via the exchange.

I'm in the camp where I want to see how this ticket system pans out through the whole process. Most jitters at the moment are because people have a level of uncertainty in this new system and aren't sure how to deal with it. We'll only know after this year is over.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.
User avatar
BBadger
 
Posts: 4432
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 am
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA
Burning Since: I'm not sure

Re: 2012 Theme Camps - will you make it this year?

Postby EspressoDude » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:42 am

Trishntek wrote:Seeing as this is only the beginning of the ticket acquisition process, we have maybe 30% of our camp populated with ticket holders. Being the burners they are, those who do not have one will endeavor to get one. In the past we've all had relative control of our ticket acquisitions. Now the luck of the draw has control and we just stew in our juices hoping for good fortune.

Retrofrolic is a camp that can be anywhere from five to 35 people. We can adjust accordingly. The one thing that does stick in my craw,,,, how can we apply for placement without knowing whether our people and resources will all be there? I guess we simply hope for the best and plan for the worst. It would look kind of odd having 10 campers in a placed lot for 35.

Maybe I'll get a setup for a basketball court just in case we have abundant space.


Trish...ask for the space you usually ask for. It will be filled with friends..some of them new ones.. But then maybe Placement and camp space allotments will be a lottery also, as will your campmate assignments, as randomly selected by the org... You wanted Democrats at the Republican caucus anyway, right?
Is 4 shots enuff? no foo-foo drinks; just naked Espresso
Tactical Espresso Service http://home.comcast.net/~espressocamp/
Field Artillery Tractor
FOGBANK, GOD OF HELLFIRE
BLACK ROCK f/x Trojan Horse,Anubis,2014Temple
burn shit and blow shit up
User avatar
EspressoDude
 
Posts: 4840
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: the first Vancouver

Next

Return to 2012 Tickets Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests