Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

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Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby inog » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:32 pm

Wanna totaly mess over scalpers – here is an idea -


If you really want to have some fun with the scalper market, create a ticket system that does not have any independent means of verification. No hologram. No fancy printing. Just a very simple and very easy to forge ticket with a unique ID number. Tell everyone their ticket to get in is not the “ticket” – but the number on the ticket. Think along the lines of a print at home PDF ticket.

That means that unless you buy from the STEP program or someone you absolutely trust, you have no way of knowing if your ticket is any good. Tickets submitted back to the STEP program have their numbers voided and when re-sold the new purchaser receives a new unique number.

It you want to make sure you get in it would be advised to show up with both your ticket number and purchase verification. Sure you can get in with just the ticket number, but purchase verification is preferred if there are problems.

And – it will be impossible to safely buy a third party ticket. Would you give $1,000 to someone you did not know on assurances the piece of paper you were buying had a valid number that had not been copied 100 times?

Yes - under this system a lot of people will show up at the gate with tickets they buy from scalpers for $500-$1000 that are fake. BMOG would be making the tickets transparent and so easy to copy, unless you bought it yourself you would assume it was fake. People that buy from third parties would be idiots and there will always be plenty of them. Such is life. But by taking away any independent verification of physical ticket authenticity BMOG would essentially destroys the third party / scalper market. Unless you buy such a ticket yourself, or have a high degree of trust in anyone you buy it from, then you would have to assume the ticket was a fake.

Third party vendors and scalpers would have nothing to sell. In fact, under this system, a third party / non-STEP ticket would be worth LESS as the buyer would have to discount the ticket due to a likelihood of it being a fake / copy / forgery.

Anyway… an idea.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby randomgirl7 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:36 pm

Would help out those who lose their tickets too.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby fastsnail » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

good idea.

in return it would need a sort of central db with scanners at the gate to certify that the unique id is still "valid"... such a system could cause a lot of problems during a week-long event in a desert...
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby dr.placebo » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:12 pm

The scanner and DB system already exists and is used for early entry. It could be scaled up without a lot of changes. I don't know how often it's down, but it appeared to be pretty solid the few times I've been through. And at least for early entry the scanning is one of the fastest stages in the whole process, so it's not likely to slow things down when scaled up.

At least you don't have to go through the backscatter xray machine.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby fastsnail » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:35 pm

dr.placebo wrote:The scanner and DB system already exists and is used for early entry. It could be scaled up without a lot of changes. I don't know how often it's down, but it appeared to be pretty solid the few times I've been through. And at least for early entry the scanning is one of the fastest stages in the whole process, so it's not likely to slow things down when scaled up.

At least you don't have to go through the backscatter xray machine.


hmm so the OP's idea is interesting...

however for each fake id sold, a big problem at the gate...if thousands of fake are sold....ouch :|
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby socks » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Inog you put faith in the same people that said there would be no problems with getting a ticket if you wanted 1.Hey stub hub has 88 tickets for 630 each i guess thats what BM.ORG ment
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby Donna Matrix » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:08 pm

inog wrote:Wanna totaly mess over scalpers – here is an idea -


If you really want to have some fun with the scalper market, create a ticket system that does not have any independent means of verification. No hologram. No fancy printing. Just a very simple and very easy to forge ticket with a unique ID number. Tell everyone their ticket to get in is not the “ticket” – but the number on the ticket. Think along the lines of a print at home PDF ticket.

That means that unless you buy from the STEP program or someone you absolutely trust, you have no way of knowing if your ticket is any good. Tickets submitted back to the STEP program have their numbers voided and when re-sold the new purchaser receives a new unique number.

It you want to make sure you get in it would be advised to show up with both your ticket number and purchase verification. Sure you can get in with just the ticket number, but purchase verification is preferred if there are problems.

And – it will be impossible to safely buy a third party ticket. Would you give $1,000 to someone you did not know on assurances the piece of paper you were buying had a valid number that had not been copied 100 times?

Yes - under this system a lot of people will show up at the gate with tickets they buy from scalpers for $500-$1000 that are fake. BMOG would be making the tickets transparent and so easy to copy, unless you bought it yourself you would assume it was fake. People that buy from third parties would be idiots and there will always be plenty of them. Such is life. But by taking away any independent verification of physical ticket authenticity BMOG would essentially destroys the third party / scalper market. Unless you buy such a ticket yourself, or have a high degree of trust in anyone you buy it from, then you would have to assume the ticket was a fake.

Third party vendors and scalpers would have nothing to sell. In fact, under this system, a third party / non-STEP ticket would be worth LESS as the buyer would have to discount the ticket due to a likelihood of it being a fake / copy / forgery.

Anyway… an idea.


You mean EXACTLY what they already do for EARLY entry?

Why - That would be too easy............ silly!
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby Donna Matrix » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:09 pm

They already do this! For early entry. *arg*
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby inog » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:12 pm

socks wrote:stub hub has 88 tickets for 630 each


88 out of 40,000 is not bad.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby AntiM » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:16 pm

inog wrote:
socks wrote:stub hub has 88 tickets for 630 each


88 out of 40,000 is not bad.



88 out of 43,000. Presales generated more than a few of those.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby igor47 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:18 pm

yes! great idea. the official ticket could even say right on it, DO NOT BUY FROM 3RD PARTIES. only the BMORG would be able to sell tickets. you could refund your ticket to the org at any time and another ticket would pop up for sale, with a new serial number/barcode/whatever. scalping just wouldn't work.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby lessrules » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:55 pm

I like where this is going.

inog wrote:If you really want to have some fun with the scalper market, create a ticket system that does not have any independent means of verification. No hologram. No fancy printing. Just a very simple and very easy to forge ticket with a unique ID number. Tell everyone their ticket to get in is not the “ticket” – but the number on the ticket. Think along the lines of a print at home PDF ticket.

igor47 wrote:yes! great idea. the official ticket could even say right on it, DO NOT BUY FROM 3RD PARTIES. only the BMORG would be able to sell tickets. you could refund your ticket to the org at any time and another ticket would pop up for sale, with a new serial number/barcode/whatever. scalping just wouldn't work.


Let's assume tickets have been awarded to you by the new bigger, better system:
1. You get a "Ticket Confirmation Email" (or you can log in to BM.com and get it)
2. You can redeem your Ticket Confirmation Email for a ticket code any time by logging in and doing so (if there are any ticket codes left to give out).
3. Your "real" ticket is one of these unverifiable, printable-at-home ticket codes (or just write down the code# on paper).
4. If you don't redeem it, then you can redeem it next year.
5. Your proof of purchase is your payment method + the ticket code.
6. Your proof of purchase is the credit card* or statement, bank card or statement, or serial numbers of the cash bills you used to pay for the tix, or cheque number and chequing account number.
*(can still be an anonymous purchaser this way with a prepaid credit card)
Last edited by lessrules on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:56 pm

And people thought the lottery was too complicated...
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby KarmaYoga » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:32 pm

I like this idea alot. Its not as complicated as it seems.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby Mosquitopilate » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:11 pm

But the question is are the people making these decisions reading these post? I hope they figure it out cause scalpers do not give a shit
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby A Jester » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:18 pm

inog wrote:Wanna totaly mess over scalpers – here is an idea -


If you really want to have some fun with the scalper market, create a ticket system that does not have any independent means of verification. No hologram. No fancy printing. Just a very simple and very easy to forge ticket with a unique ID number. Tell everyone their ticket to get in is not the “ticket” – but the number on the ticket. Think along the lines of a print at home PDF ticket.

That means that unless you buy from the STEP program or someone you absolutely trust, you have no way of knowing if your ticket is any good. Tickets submitted back to the STEP program have their numbers voided and when re-sold the new purchaser receives a new unique number.

It you want to make sure you get in it would be advised to show up with both your ticket number and purchase verification. Sure you can get in with just the ticket number, but purchase verification is preferred if there are problems.

And – it will be impossible to safely buy a third party ticket. Would you give $1,000 to someone you did not know on assurances the piece of paper you were buying had a valid number that had not been copied 100 times?

Yes - under this system a lot of people will show up at the gate with tickets they buy from scalpers for $500-$1000 that are fake. BMOG would be making the tickets transparent and so easy to copy, unless you bought it yourself you would assume it was fake. People that buy from third parties would be idiots and there will always be plenty of them. Such is life. But by taking away any independent verification of physical ticket authenticity BMOG would essentially destroys the third party / scalper market. Unless you buy such a ticket yourself, or have a high degree of trust in anyone you buy it from, then you would have to assume the ticket was a fake.

Third party vendors and scalpers would have nothing to sell. In fact, under this system, a third party / non-STEP ticket would be worth LESS as the buyer would have to discount the ticket due to a likelihood of it being a fake / copy / forgery.

Anyway… an idea.



This may not be quite perfect, but it is the most original while still being feasible idea I've heard in months. I like it.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby Zoo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:24 am

I think you're applying too much faith in people's common sense. There'll still be a truckload of people with fake tickets showing up at the door. And even if you're right, what happens to all those people who have a crisis and can't make it at the last minute. They can't sell their ticket because no one will believe it's real.

The real culprit with enabling scalpers is the attendance cap.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby inog » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:22 am

Zoo wrote:I think you're applying too much faith in people's common sense. There'll still be a truckload of people with fake tickets showing up at the door. And even if you're right, what happens to all those people who have a crisis and can't make it at the last minute. They can't sell their ticket because no one will believe it's real.

The real culprit with enabling scalpers is the attendance cap.



People will always have fake tickets. You can't stop that. A fool and his money....

As for the attendance cap - I see this as an issue of safety. While it may seem hyperbole, simple truth is Burning Man is now of the size and nature that but for the cap, people will die.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby vapor » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:45 am

No reason to even give out the code until 2 weeks before the event, keep numbers out of circulation. Early arrival passes aren't given out until a few weeks before, it works fine. I think as long as everyone knows the only way to buy a real ticket is from the org then you'd have to be pretty darned foolish to buy a number from any other source. Just as the sell out received lots of publicity the new ticket rules could as well.

Another thought, maybe too much of a logistical challenge, but put the scanning and verification checkpoint somewhere along 447. Counter point to that is if you try and game the system you get the joy of driving back all the way from the gate rather than near the I-80.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby yellowpants » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:49 am

Or or or... better idea yet.

Have a lottery system backed up by everybody's name where everybody wins, but when tickets are sent in July only 30% of the tickets are sent. Maybe 20% more can be sent but they are fake and don't have the hologram. Another 25% are sent but they are for the previous year (bummer!). Then tell everyone that they have to bring a special item for the gate, such as a hat with bunny ears. Everyone will have different ticket colors such as blue, green, yellow, purple and when all are collected, we can have a giant confetti party! :shock:

Now tell me that this wouldn't totally mess over scalpers! I think they don't realize who the fuck they are dealing with
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby vargaso » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:39 pm

This is the best I've idea I've heard so far, and as others have stated, it's already in place on a smaller scale for early entry. The only real issue is with lots of people showing up at the gate with fake tickets, but that already happens. They could even give out physical "tickets" at the gate once your confirmation number is approved for keepsakes. This method would also save on shipping costs. I vote for this. I have a vote, right? Ha.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby yellowpants » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:55 pm

Thanks Vargaso! I'm glad you like my idea!
:)
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:21 pm

It was pointed out by our village mayor on a different board, that until recently we had chronic problems with the llc sending out the same early entry bar code to different persons, leading to much extra work confirming... well, I don't know how they did it, I never had that problem, and I don't get early entry any more. The upshot is that the program has been problematic in the past and scaling it up might result in a resurgence of those problems.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby knowmad » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:07 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:It was pointed out by our village mayor on a different board, that until recently we had chronic problems with the llc sending out the same early entry bar code to different persons, leading to much extra work confirming... well, I don't know how they did it, I never had that problem, and I don't get early entry any more. The upshot is that the program has been problematic in the past and scaling it up might result in a resurgence of those problems.

that was not only the problem it was also (highly prob) the way entry got faked.
the reason that the ticket problem is not getting fixed is it not a problem for those using it to their own advantage.
open disclosure would fix allot. and no it [open disclosure] would not benefit the scalpers at all.
what has been described above is an implementation of one of the worlds oldest secure system ever. the public/private verification key.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby graidawg » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:39 pm

ok this ticket thread passes muster it is a good idea in that it is already in use. You avoid the ticket thread original poster massacre of 2012.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby inog » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:39 am

Also of note - It can still be done this year.

It is not too late. And this would force all "scalper" tickets back into STEP.

** Personally I do not think the problem is scalpers. I think it is raw supply and demand.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby bradtem » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:36 am

The idea is cute but you're going to need police around the gate to deal with the fistfights as people who have engaged in tremendous work and cost show up and are turned away with nothing. People won't read all the instructions and warnings. A system has to deal with that. It's OK if you make the non-readers jump through some more hoops or they have to go into a slow line or even pay more money, but sending them back...

And then there are the mistakes. The trusted friend who gives you the wrong ticket code by error.

Lots of events use print-at-home tickets with no security in the paper. Security in the paper is so 1900s. But in this case they are print at home tickets and indeed, I think they do reduce scalping because people are reluctant to buy these from a guy on the street or on ebay.

Fortunately in a sold-out event, it is possible to help the people who decide at the last minute that they can't go to the event. They can't sell their ticket to a friend, but they can return it for a refund as long as there are people waiting in a last minute queue who would then get assigned the ticket and charged for it. I think for BM there would be people waiting in that queue -- such as the person you were going to sell privately to. You can always "sell" your ticket, but you can't choose who gets it.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:34 am

inog wrote:** Personally I do not think the problem is scalpers. I think it is raw supply and demand.

You're completely ignoring the long, empassioned screed against scalpers that Adam Smith wrote in The Wealth of Nations 101.
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby blazefirestormer » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:08 pm

inog, lending to your specific career, Attorney at Law

What would be the ramifications if for example the terms of service had identified scalping as a breech, and Borg, scrubbed entry winners suspected of scalping, like multiple tickets going to the same PO BOX, and instead of issuing a ticket. After which the scalpers receive a letter in the mail, talking about breech of TOS agreements, etc.... Stubhub, would refund those poor fools who bought from them, would the terms of service breech be enough to warrant not issuing of a ticket, without a lengthy robust legal precedent being brought against borg by scalpers?

just some questions....

Cheers,

P.S. even though scalpers may not be the main problem..
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Re: Wanna total mess over scalpers – here is an idea -

Postby bradtem » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:37 pm

What the terms could have said is not that interesting, as I doubt the lottery will be done this way ever again. Ticket resale for more than list price however is often covered in different states by special laws, often illegal on its own without TOS. I don't know if anybody yet knows how much of the oversubscription was due to speculators and how much was due to camps over-entering the lottery with plans to sell their extras. If it is discovered there were a lot of speculators, BMOrg could pull off some tricks, I guess. But it's hard.
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