well it looks like it failed.

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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Nipple » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:27 pm

lemur wrote:inside job!!!!


I concur. The lottery is more like 9/11 than the Iraq war.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:28 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:Has anyone got pictures of Larry kicking a dog or anything like that?

Didn't he kill a kitteh he adopted as an "art piece" back in the seventies?
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Mofessor » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:30 pm

Just so everyone knows the talking points being distributed by BMORG:

FOR YOU:

Help us with the Burning Man Post-Main Ticket Sale Communications Campaign ...

Greetings all ... we wanted to make sure to get this out to YOU, as a member of the Burning Man community, so you can be prepared to answer questions that are likely to come your way, AND to disseminate it out into your teams as appropriate.  If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.  OK here we go ...

Situation Summary:
The number of tickets being requested by participants who have registered in our Main Sale random drawing is far greater than the pool of tickets available (40,000). We believe that this has been caused by people - unsurprisingly - padding their odds of getting tickets by encouraging their friends and campmates to all order more tickets than they need (average requests were 1.7/person).

The net result is that a very large number of people will not be awarded tickets in the Main Sale, many of whom will likely announce / complain about it on social networks, expressing their fear of not being able to get tickets. Because this is happening with our largest bulk of ticket distribution (40k), it will send a psychological and emotional shockwave through the community signaling scarcity in the market, making for higher demand for tickets, and driving the scalper trade. This news will quickly get picked up by the mainstream media, who have consistently covered Burning Man 2012 ticket sales Š likely they will play to the sensationalist "Burning Man Sell-Out Imminent" or "Panic in the Streets of Black Rock City" story.

While the popular perception will be that few tickets remain, the reality is that THERE WILL BE A LARGE SURPLUS OF TICKETS CIRCULATING IN OUR COMMUNITY THAT SIMPLY NEED TO BE REDISTRIBUTED, and that natural forces will ultimately prevail - over time - such that most everybody who wants a ticket will get one.

Goal:
Pro-actively leverage our existing and new communications channels to calm the community, ensuring them that there are plenty of opportunities to still get tickets. We see this as an opportunity for the community to "police itself" and redistribute these extra tickets to those who need them at face value, shut scalpers out of the market, and to thwart scammers. And while Burning Man is here to help the process, it's ultimately up to them to make it happen - and so the goal is to initiate a VIRAL CAMPAIGN that educates and empowers the community. Just like we're able to accomplish Leave No Trace against all odds, we can do this too, working together.

Overall Timing:
Tickets will start to be awarded on Tuesday, January 31, and finish on Wednesday, February 1, 2012. Please communicate this information to your respective lists no later than Monday, January 30 ... or keep it handy for answering questions as they arise, whichever is appropriate to your needs.

TO SHARE:

Information to Share About Tickets:
- It's become clear that many participants in the Main Sale (understandably) padded their odds of getting tickets by requesting more tickets than they need (the average request was 1.7 tickets/person), and getting friends and campmates to do so as well.
- As a result, a significant number of people aren't going to be awarded tickets in the Main Sale.
- THE TICKETS ARE OUT THERE. There are a lot of tickets that will now be circulating in the community that simply need to be redistributed.
- KEEP THE FAITH. We believe that things will settle out over the course of time such that most everybody who wants a ticket will likely get one.
- YOU HAVE OPTIONS. Options include the upcoming Open Sale and what will be a booming secondary market, facilitated by the STEP.
- BUYING OR SELLING TICKETS? USE THE STEP. People are encouraged to use the Secure Ticket Exchange Program (STEP), which allows Burners to sell back their tickets so other Burners can buy them. It's risk free, secure, and supports the community. More information about this system will be forthcoming soon.
- KEEP IT IN THE COMMUNITY. Do NOT patronize eBay, Craigslist, StubHub or other ticket resellers when buying or selling tickets ... use the STEP.
- DON'T FEED THE BEARS. Only the Burner community can stop scalpers and scammers by not patronizing them, and by selling tickets at face value ... or gifting them. Scammers should be reported to partiserv@burningman.com. Known scams will be listed on the ePlaya here: viewforum.php?f=290.
- STAY INFORMED. The latest ticket information and resources can be found at http://tickets.burningman.com, and will be disseminated regularly on the JRS and/or the Burning Blog.
- THERE'S MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BURN. Ultimately, Burning Man is a way of life, lived year-round, including a large number of Regional events internationally, and the activities of the Burning Man Project. If worst comes to worst, or you just want an alternative, it's out there.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby 5280MeV » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:31 pm

lemur wrote:the real problem is that not all of the people who want to get a ticket can actually receive one...


BIngo.

That and the org made a decision (modulo staff tickets and such) - a decision that I respect greatly, that there was not going to be any criterion for who gets to go and who doesn't - just simple random chance. It doesn't matter how big and impressive your artwork is, everyone has an equal shot at taking a space on the playa and getting to make their own show with whatever resources they can muster.

Otherwise the whole spirit of self-expression falls apart. It becomes about being in this-or-that big important theme camp or art installation. You gotta pay your dues, work your way up the ladder. You have to be indoctrinated. I get enough of that shit in the real world. I get enough of that in my actual profession. What I saw at Burning Man was a venue to truly express who I am, as I find myself in the wilderness.

The playa is pretty damn cool as a challenging environment - probably the best environment for this on the continent. But that doesn't mean that it is the only place on Earth where you get to make your own show. If it is, then maybe an eviction is actually a blessing.

I will see the lucky ones who make it in Black Rock city in 2012. Or maybe not. Then fuck it, I will make my own show in Mysteria - or maybe Pyropolis. My planning does not hinge on any single organization granting me a ticket. BRC is not the only zone on the planet.

I think that 2011/2012 is an amazing time to jump on the bandwagon, and for some, maybe a good time to jump off.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby lemur » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:32 pm

tl;dr
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Scatter42 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:34 pm

Eric wrote:
A-RockLeFrench wrote:
vargaso wrote:BM lottery is turning out to be like the Iraq war. Everyone outside of those making the decisions knew exactly what would happen. Oh well, I'm still hopeful.


Except there seems to be WAY more civilian casualties as a result of the BM lottery than the Iraq War....


[Mod hat off]

Really? Really??? You're fucking comparing Hundreds of Thousands of HUMAN BEINGS DYING to a couple of entitled 1st world people not getting a fucking ticket to party in a desert for a week???

Just fucking shoot me. People have lost all sense of reality.

[Mod hat on]



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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:45 pm

Eric wrote:
A-RockLeFrench wrote:
vargaso wrote:BM lottery is turning out to be like the Iraq war. Everyone outside of those making the decisions knew exactly what would happen. Oh well, I'm still hopeful.


Except there seems to be WAY more civilian casualties as a result of the BM lottery than the Iraq War....


[Mod hat off]

Really? Really??? You're fucking comparing Hundreds of Thousands of HUMAN BEINGS DYING to a couple of entitled 1st world people not getting a fucking ticket to party in a desert for a week???

Just fucking shoot me. People have lost all sense of reality.

[Mod hat on]
Y

Yes. Yes I am. Or actually, I'm not responsible for the original comparison, but I did feel compelled to make a joke of it. Because my sick twisted sense of humor gets me off. I'm sorry this seems to have offended you. It wasn't meant to offend, it was meant to put into perspective all of the freaking the fuck out for no reason especially the freaking the fuck out because there's so much freaking the fuck out for no reason.

People lost all sense of reality when they started SPENDING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on a fucking one week party in the desert when there's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HUMAN BEINGS DYING as a result of said party. YOU want to get all HIGH AND FUCKING MIGHTY about needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. What about the impoverished children working in sweatshops in 3rd world countries to build countless shitty blinky LED products for our party. What about the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF FOSSIL FUELS consumed at our party that in turn will influence Oil companies to buy out our government and instigate war where HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WILL DIE. Fake fur = made from plastic, which is made from petroleum. How many Iraqis had to die so we can go to our fucking party? Fuck. Fuck. Fuck.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby vapor » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:46 pm

I saw him walking out of Jiffy Lube without using one of the bmorg required hand sanitizers. On another occasion he was seen dressed in feathers at one of the large scale sound art installations (insert your favorite of Root, OT, etc). And he was dancing . . . thought something froze over somewhere at that point. But I guess life continued regardless. Oh yeah, he was on a yellow school bus in '97 with a bunch of naked hippies heading to a hot tub . . .
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Elderberry » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:48 pm

It will only be brilliant if BM acts as an escrow agent for the transaction. Otherwise, might as well use Craig's List or eBay.

pink wrote:
Savannah wrote:
vapor wrote:"Any news on how they plan to keep scalpers out of this system? Seems like a great 1-stop-shop to buy low and sell high."

I would suggest keeping the STEP program "private" for a period of time to only those who registered for the lottery and did not win. That would allow for equitable redistribution between those who "over applied" for tickets and those who missed out and keeping within the general spirit of an early sign up period.


That's a neat idea.

I think there will be some form of protection so that it's legitimately Burner-to-Burner. The details will be available soon.


I think this suggestion is fucking brilliant. :D
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Jackass » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:07 pm

lemur wrote:
Ruleryak wrote:

And I see as a last minute response the org will now attempt to build a system for burners to resell extra tickets...

Score one for the powers that be for at least caving to that demand (you can't call it an idea when folks on this board have been suggesting exactly that for months and they're just now admitting it's needed).


YOU KNOW.. youre totally right about this LAST MINUTE CAVING IN TO DEMAND that they JUST NOW realized was needed.. totally right bro

this is where i heard about their dramatic last minute concession..

Burning Man Update: The Jack Rabbit Speaks
Volume 16, Issue #5: 2012 TICKET INFORMATION
November 19, 2011

RESALE TICKETS: Burning Man plans to create a centralized online
system to facilitate the resale of unwanted/unneeded tickets. More
details will be announced soon.




DOOD, its like.. almost like they said this from only 1 week after they announced the lottery!! over 2 months ago!! holy moly.. this last minute concession is just jaw dropping!!!



Lemur +1 :lol:
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby biketotheburn » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:21 pm

I am not one to posts on forums, but figured I would put in my 2 cents . . . which is actually worth .000007 pesos

I think Burning Man is trying to find a ticketing system that is fair and easy to manage. Unfortunately when you are dealing with an event that has become so popular it has started to sell out someone is always going to get burned (and not in the good way)! I do appreciate that burning man has addressed that there is a problem and is trying their best to resolve it, you will never know if it really works until you try it! This goes for everything in life! You learn from experiences and not from speculations!

However I do think they have tripped up in 2 ways. But first let me say, we all make mistakes and that is a part of life. Except for me, I've never made a mistake MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA (really hope you pick up the sarcasm on that one).

1) I think lasts year open online ticketing system could have worked if they had used the correct technical resources and had enough servers to handle the mad rush. It was nice that someone, or some company if I recall, offered/donated the services to handle this for Burning Man. The truth is they bit off more then they could chew (easy to point out after the fact). The error was that the system wasn't tested before hand. Burning man should have said "What happens if 40,000 try to hit the website at the same time, will this handle it?" and then they should have escalated the number 10x! You easily set these sort of tests up (how do you think Amazon.com knows they will be to handle Cyber Monday?)

Does this mean that last years system didn't work? Certainly not, it only means that the resources they were using (and more importantly the servers) couldn't the handle that demand. That is why people in line suddenly jumped from the hundreds to thousands and lost their place in line. You can find a solution to run this, but it will cost some money! The system didn't fail, the resources did. Which brings me to my second point.

2) Do some research! Burning Man isn't the first large scale event to sell out. Can anyone think of large scale events that sell out within minutes? Any that are about to kick off soon (hint hint)? Well I will give you a few example to ponder over. I am not saying they are the absolute ideal solution for burning man, but they work for other large scale events that sell out. Burning Man shouldn't be reinventing the wheel . . .

A) Superbowl - "How can I buy Super Bowl XLVI tickets?

The demand for tickets to the Super Bowl greatly exceeds the supply. The majority of tickets are allotted to the two participating teams, and to a lesser extent through each of the other NFL teams. Remaining tickets for the general public are made available through a random drawing. There is no other means for the general public to purchase tickets. The NFL does not sell tickets to travel or ticket agents.

Entries for the random drawing are accepted between Feb. 1 and June 1 of the year preceding the game in question. All ticket requests must be sent via certified or registered mail. Those selected in the random drawing will have the opportunity to purchase two tickets.

Requests for Super Bowl XLVI, to be played Feb. 2012 in Indianapolis, will be accepted beginning Feb. 1, 2011 until June 1, 2011. Your request for admittance into the drawing should include Full Name, address, city, state, zip, phone, and email. They should be sent to.." - http://www.nfl.com/help/faq

Mail could be interesting as it would get rid of the ease of access. For the people that bulked up on ticket entries, would it be just as easy to have your friends and family sign-up for tickets for you if they had to mail the lottery application in?

B) Olympics - It looks like they also have a Resale Ticketing system - "Ticket resale update - You can now submit to the resale programme any tickets which you purchased through London 2012 but are no longer able to use. You have until 6pm on 3 February to submit tickets. These tickets will be made available to the public from April 2012. For more information please read our Frequently asked questions. We are sorry for any inconvenience caused." - http://www.tickets.london2012.com/

Might be able to learn something about the reselling process before Burning Man takes on another unknown beast . . . just saying . . .

C) IronMan Hawaii -"How do I qualify for the 2012 Ironman World Championship? Athletes gain entry into the 2012 Ironman World Championship one of three ways: by earning a qualifying slot at one of the qualifying events held worldwide, by being selected in the Ironman Lottery Program or by winning a slot through the Ironman’s charitable eBay Auction. Official qualifying events award Ironman World Championship slots to their top age-group finishers. Qualifying races are one of two distances: 1.2-mile swim, 56-mile bike, 13.1-mile run or 2.4-mile swim, 112-mile bike, 26.2-mile run." - http://ironmanworldchampionship.com/qualification/

This one cracks me up because of the people complaining about the current Bman lottery. What is the main qualification for Bmans lottery? That you have internet access and you have a method of payment (CC or Debit Card). This is way too easy, you want to weed off the scalpers and padded lottery entries make the application more difficult. I am not saying you have to have done 11 Ironmans (but seriously how many burners can say they have done that? I am guessing less than 10) but make it more difficult than checking your email online. Find a way to eliminate bots and scammers, people who truly appreciate the event and want to contribute will find a way to make it.

Okay done ranting for now . . . I doubt anyone will read any of this anyway . . . happy burn everyone!
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Key Man » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:24 pm

YES. Requests outstripping supply by a big margin simply means "Oops, our solution failed". I knew it, I've been predicting it. Yep, no doubt people did recruit friends and relatives to apply for tickets, as backup. And no doubt a decent % of "applications" were from scalpers -- or from their (anonymous) assistants. And the response that BM posted -- what BS, what lame propaganda. And I'm not even a cynical guy! Really!

So BM says "be good Burners, and re-distribute your extra tickets at face value. We'll help you do that." Yeah, right. If only all people were so altruistic. A few will be. But IMO, ebay and Craiglslist will be busy (both with real tickets and with scams -- have fun telling the difference).

I still say the answer would have been, and may ultimately be, tickets with your name on them. That would have prevented this big new problem. Yes, that would have created its own hassles - but not of the magnitude of what many of us will have to deal with now.

Those of us who really want to go will get tickets in the end and go. But how many middle-persons will profit, in the process? And to what extent has ticket distribution been tilted on favor of those who can pay a premium?

Just my humble opinion.

Key Man.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby lemur » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:28 pm

I read it BIKETOTHEBURN

good post!!! welcome to the community
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Jackass » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:28 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:We need to make an effort to malign the festival and the LLC as to make some of these burny come latelys stay home out of fear or disgust.

Has anyone got pictures of Larry kicking a dog or anything like that? Maybe a nice rumor that he's a C.I.A. Handler like Jim Jones...

Help me out here people, i cant do this all myself.


I heard they are going to start putting ID chips under our skin and scanning us like a lost dog at the pound in order to get in. Anyone else hear about this??
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Killbuck » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:31 pm

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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby LadyLynx » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:32 pm

I will see you there brothers, remember the power of intention (not the wayne dyer book). I'll be doing the runningman till then.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby zer0mass » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:37 pm

vapor wrote:"Any news on how they plan to keep scalpers out of this system? Seems like a great 1-stop-shop to buy low and sell high."

I would suggest keeping the STEP program "private" for a period of time to only those who registered for the lottery and did not win. That would allow for equitable redistribution between those who "over applied" for tickets and those who missed out and keeping within the general spirit of an early sign up period. Another idea would be to have a short window of time, 3-5 days, where all those who are awarded tickets have time to double check that they actually need the number of tickets they applied for before cards are charged. Then redistribute the remaining tickets to those who weren't chosen.


This sounds like a great idea. It would give people who tried to get tickets via the lottery a second chance.

And for every complaint I see and hear the only thing I can think of is "Do they want BMORG to start using Ticket Master?"
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:40 pm

zer0mass wrote:And for every complaint I see and hear the only thing I can think of is "Do they want BMORG to start using Ticket Master?"

Yeah. I've wondered that, too. At least the fees would go up.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby curiousgnate » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:06 pm

It's as simple as this keep the previous first come first served system, have one price, and have a name on a ticket. sure it would cost the borg more but so fucking what. and then do random ticket name matches. no name match no entry. eliminates scalping and eliminates the huge overdemand. simple. just waiting to see all the further completely unnecessary problems occur. this is just the beginning people. what about the credit cards that don't go through etc. it won't end until well the man burns!
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby karma_cat » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:24 pm

curiousgnate wrote:It's as simple as this keep the previous first come first served system, have one price, and have a name on a ticket. sure it would cost the borg more but so fucking what. and then do random ticket name matches. no name match no entry. eliminates scalping and eliminates the huge overdemand. simple. just waiting to see all the further completely unnecessary problems occur. this is just the beginning people. what about the credit cards that don't go through etc. it won't end until well the man burns!


^This^

I completely agree :)
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby twister5voy » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:32 am

feistypenguin wrote:I will start freaking out only if all of the below conditions are met:
1. I don't get any tickets during the main sale.
2. I don't get any tickets after attempting the open sale.
3. The aftermarket system at BM is completely unusable and/or I can't get tickets through it after months of diligent effort
4. I can't afford the price of a scalper's ticket once they come out in June


This is my plan of action as well, minus number 4. Buying from scalpers hurts me and the community.
If you entered the main sale there's nothing more you can do but wait, its up to fate now.

How bout' we just put all the tickets in a giant Hungry Hungry Hippos kinda thing and we can all scramble for them. Or a country wide game of hide and seek were we seek out tickets. Maybe have the aggro crag from GUTS and if you make it to the top you get a ticket? If were gonna tell BMOrg how to sell their tickets lets at least have some fun with it! :D

Cheers to (hopefully) seeing all of you in the dust!
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Mofessor » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:38 am

It has been our experience that a great many tickets are purchased for giving away, ensuring a project has coverage, or selling later to a friend in need. The administrative cost of changing the name on every ticket that ever changes hands exceeds our capacity. And frankly, many of your fellow BRC citizens are uncomfortable with the notion of showing ID just to enter the event (nor suffering through even longer wait times at the Gate).
[/quote]

I would bet if you put it to a vote and asked the burner community if they would be willing to have names on tickets they would overwhelmingly say yes.

I would also bet you could come up with a system to deal with ticket exchanges. The easiest one being you can sell them back to BMORG, but once you do they are available to the next person on the list/drawn at random. (ie you can't designate a specific person)

You could still gift tickets, you would just need to preplan who you're gifting them to.

As for slowing things down, why not double the greeters? While one person searches your vehicle, the other checks your ID.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:54 am

gate crew is not greeters.

they already work in teams.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Mofessor » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:04 am

lemur wrote:gate crew is not greeters.

they already work in teams.


Okay, then add one more to each team.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:16 am

curiousgnate wrote:It's as simple as this keep the previous first come first served system, have one price, and have a name on a ticket. sure it would cost the borg more but so fucking what. and then do random ticket name matches. no name match no entry. eliminates scalping and eliminates the huge overdemand. simple. just waiting to see all the further completely unnecessary problems occur. this is just the beginning people. what about the credit cards that don't go through etc. it won't end until well the man burns!



first come first served is not the ideal way to serve this community tickets to this event anymore, even on the massive scales that TicketMASTER are capable of serving..

imagine all of the people who advocate this who would have a buncha beans in their butter if they ended up not being able to get one... there would be lotsa folks who would not be happy 'i was there at the time they said theyd be available, clicked on order at 12:01 and they sold out in just a minute! i did everything right' blahblah etc.. you can imagine the rest

you say so fucking what about these costs.. but plenty in the community already have a distaste for the price of tickets.. and you advocate it going up? beyond possibly prohibitive printing cost rises the logistics of nontransferable tickets create need for more staff (or to add a higher workload for the current staff) this may just be something they arent willing or able to do within the limited infrastructure of the business that is burning man LLC...

NON transferable tickets may not align with the ideology of those people who run the event.. dont discount the fact that there are a group of people who wish to steward this event and do whats best for it ideologically and business wise. (you cant gift a non transferable ticket)

adding extra burden on the already taxed gate crew and single entry point is not just a matter of inconvenience (longer wait times, privacy concerns for participants and those handling the participants personal info, available staff, available infrastructure..) .. it is a matter of safety.. When the line backs up on to the paved road the Nevada Highway Patrol becomes concerned about the ability of emergency vehicles and other official vehicles to be able to safely ingress and egress from the event site, as well as Gerlach proper.. It is simply not safe to have these roads blocked up with cars.. the event cannot survive if these important routes are clogged up..





The people who run the Burning Man LLC have done this for a long time. They know the demands of the event and they know how much infrastructure they have at their disposal as well as the infrastructure of the surrounding communities that support our event..

Don't think for a second that they havnt considered everything that could be done to make this as best as it possibly could be within the constraints they have to deal with.


Burning Man is not glastonbury. It is held over 1 hour from the nearest large city in the middle of the desert.. there is one gate.. there are finite resources.. there is a very strong ethos/ideology guiding the goals and intent behind the decisions that are made..

whatever may seem simple and easily done to you has likely been considered.. there are many concerns to take into account and any changes can have far reaching impact in areas you might not even have considered: but they have.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:28 am

Mofessor wrote:
lemur wrote:gate crew is not greeters.

they already work in teams.


Okay, then add one more to each team.


i am not so sure if it is that easy.

if the gate crew needs to check ID's against tickets it will create an even longer bottleneck than there already is, and as mentioned above.. the line must be moved through as quickly as possible as a matter of safety for police/fire/medical service that our event depends on to survive... even with more staff there is likely to be more time needed to process each vehicle..

it is likely that the gate crew is already strained.. increasing its size by 1/3rd might be an unworkable solution for many reasons.. (lack of interested parties, lack of ability to train more than they already do each year, lack of infrastructure to support more staff..etc)

it is likely that any gate staff that has to handle personal participant information such as Full Name and ID will be required to sign a non disclosure agreement to ensure protection of the participants valuable private info... this might cause problems getting volunteers as ideologically many in our community oppose signing such agreements.. as well as participants and staff alike being opposed to needing to provide a full name to attend the event itself




the people responsible for organizing this event have surely considered this and while you may not find any fault with the proposal they surely have as it has not been implemented.. While your interest is in getting tickets and enjoying the event.. theirs is the survival of their business, the event as well as keeping their ideological interests and the ethos of the community and the event in tact.... Some things, while seemingly workable, might just be a step too far ideologically for the ones who are the stewards of this event and this community.


It would surely probably make things easier in many ways to have huge corporate sponsors at the event.. but this is not something they are willing to do because it doesnt coincide with their intent, with our community values..

requiring names on tickets, even if it were workable (which they seem to believe it is not), might also just be a stepping over a line they don't want to cross..
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby danibel » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:37 am

vapor wrote:
I would suggest keeping the STEP program "private" for a period of time to only those who registered for the lottery and did not win. That would allow for equitable redistribution between those who "over applied" for tickets and those who missed out and keeping within the general spirit of an early sign up period. Another idea would be to have a short window of time, 3-5 days, where all those who are awarded tickets have time to double check that they actually need the number of tickets they applied for before cards are charged. Then redistribute the remaining tickets to those who weren't chosen.



I really like this idea. They could clean the list of the known scalpers they are scrubbing now. Ding ding ding we have a winner!
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Mofessor » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:50 am

lemur wrote:
if the gate crew needs to check ID's against tickets it will create an even longer bottleneck than there already is, and as mentioned above.. the line must be moved through as quickly as possible as a matter of safety for police/fire/medical service that our event depends on to survive... even with more staff there is likely to be more time needed to process each vehicle..


Hard to imagine comparing a name on a ticket taking more time than searching a vehicle.

[/quote]it is likely that the gate crew is already strained.. increasing its size by 1/3rd might be an unworkable solution for many reasons.. (lack of interested parties, lack of ability to train more than they already do each year, lack of infrastructure to support more staff..etc)[/quote]

This is where I don't follow BMORG's logic. On one hand there's this can do attitude ("if we can leave zero trace on the playa after 50,000+ participants, we can do anything"), as opposed to "IDs would be way too hard."

[/quote]it is likely that any gate staff that has to handle personal participant information such as Full Name and ID will be required to sign a non disclosure agreement to ensure protection of the participants valuable private info... [/quote]

It's not like I'm showing this to police, I'm showing it to a fellow burner. Someone likely to see people doing things much more revealing than anything you could find out on an ID.

[/quote]this might cause problems getting volunteers as ideologically many in our community oppose signing such agreements.. as well as participants and staff alike being opposed to needing to provide a full name to attend the event itself[/quote]

Put it to a vote/official survey. I'm sure there would be a small group opposed, but a much larger group in support.

[/quote]the people responsible for organizing this event have surely considered this and while you may not find any fault with the proposal they surely have as it has not been implemented.. While your interest is in getting tickets and enjoying the event.. theirs is the survival of their business, the event as well as keeping their ideological interests and the ethos of the community and the event in tact.... Some things, while seemingly workable, might just be a step too far ideologically for the ones who are the stewards of this event and this community.[/quote]

Once again, I'm sure there's a small group that would have problems with this, but I'm confident the community as a whole would overwhelmingly support it, just as they support/understand when vehicles are searched. After all, it's not like we don't give BMorg all this info already when we buy tickets.

Basically, there just seems to be this disconnect. Trust and expect burners to behave ethically with the lottery and redistribution market, trust them to search your vehicle, trust them when you're out on the playa, but be very afraid if one sees your ID.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:06 am

turning away vehicles with mismatched tickets creates a burden on the staff and the flow of traffic (ask the gate people.. theyll tell ya) it will slow stuff down dramatically whether you believe it or not


we can leave no trace without adding extra staff or infrastructure than we had last year...(and leave no trace doesnt create a burden on the ingress and egress of emergency vehicles like gate activities do) adding 1/3 staff to a department is well, adding 1/3 staff to a department.. and this is assuming that even adding people would be a benefit (which it may not even be.. dont forget that having more people in that mass of cars puts more people in physical danger.. )


as someone who was required to sign a non disclosure agreement in the interest of protecting participants private information I can assure that while you may not think it is important, they do.. (as they should)


burning man is not a democracy. there will be no vote


burning man is not a democracy... whether the community at large is OK with using names (in the possibly selfish interest of assuring they get an entry ticket) is irrelevent. some of us arent OK with it and requiring names to attend may very well not jive with the ideological and cultural ethos of our community and the stewards vision of the event (and may not be logistically/financially feasible for many reasons

Mofessor wrote:

Hard to imagine comparing a name on a ticket taking more time than searching a vehicle.



This is where I don't follow BMORG's logic. On one hand there's this can do attitude ("if we can leave zero trace on the playa after 50,000+ participants, we can do anything"), as opposed to "IDs would be way too hard."



It's not like I'm showing this to police, I'm showing it to a fellow burner. Someone likely to see people doing things much more revealing than anything you could find out on an ID.


Put it to a vote/official survey. I'm sure there would be a small group opposed, but a much larger group in support.



Once again, I'm sure there's a small group that would have problems with this, but I'm confident the community as a whole would overwhelmingly support it, just as they support/understand when vehicles are searched. After all, it's not like we don't give BMorg all this info already when we buy tickets.

Basically, there just seems to be this disconnect. Trust and expect burners to behave ethically with the lottery and redistribution market, trust them to search your vehicle, trust them when you're out on the playa, but be very afraid if one sees your ID.
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Re: well it looks like it failed.

Postby Mofessor » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:13 am

More likely people will forget a ticket than ID, so the turning around cars rationale doesn't seem compelling.

I'm sure some people aren't okay with vehicles being searched... others with not being able to bring firearms (no more drive by shooting galleries)... others with the rules on photography... but those things are done over people's objections because it's what's best for Burning Man.

It's hard to see how showing an ID violates anyone's rights more than what is already being done. Also, paranoia (or whatever it is) shouldn't dictate what's best for the community.

If it helps avoid scalpers, if it allows more people to attend the event, if it results in a fairer process, then it would seem like it's an important part of the ideological and cultural ethos of the community.

lemur wrote:turning away vehicles with mismatched tickets creates a burden on the staff and the flow of traffic (ask the gate people.. theyll tell ya) it will slow stuff down dramatically whether you believe it or not


we can leave no trace without adding extra staff or infrastructure than we had last year...(and leave no trace doesnt create a burden on the ingress and egress of emergency vehicles like gate activities do) adding 1/3 staff to a department is well, adding 1/3 staff to a department.. and this is assuming that even adding people would be a benefit (which it may not even be.. dont forget that having more people in that mass of cars puts more people in physical danger.. )


as someone who was required to sign a non disclosure agreement in the interest of protecting participants private information I can assure that while you may not think it is important, they do.. (as they should)


burning man is not a democracy. there will be no vote


burning man is not a democracy... whether the community at large is OK with using names (in the possibly selfish interest of assuring they get an entry ticket) is irrelevent. some of us arent OK with it and requiring names to attend may very well not jive with the ideological and cultural ethos of our community and the stewards vision of the event (and may not be logistically/financially feasible for many reasons

Mofessor wrote:

Hard to imagine comparing a name on a ticket taking more time than searching a vehicle.



This is where I don't follow BMORG's logic. On one hand there's this can do attitude ("if we can leave zero trace on the playa after 50,000+ participants, we can do anything"), as opposed to "IDs would be way too hard."



It's not like I'm showing this to police, I'm showing it to a fellow burner. Someone likely to see people doing things much more revealing than anything you could find out on an ID.


Put it to a vote/official survey. I'm sure there would be a small group opposed, but a much larger group in support.



Once again, I'm sure there's a small group that would have problems with this, but I'm confident the community as a whole would overwhelmingly support it, just as they support/understand when vehicles are searched. After all, it's not like we don't give BMorg all this info already when we buy tickets.

Basically, there just seems to be this disconnect. Trust and expect burners to behave ethically with the lottery and redistribution market, trust them to search your vehicle, trust them when you're out on the playa, but be very afraid if one sees your ID.
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