Everyone buying too many tickets?

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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby oneeyeddick » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:06 am

Nothing wrong with acting like a Dick, especially if you Fuck.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby A Jester » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:37 pm

joshuaj wrote:@Jester: If you want to get more than your fill of rational explanations on the playa, march your megaphone over to Entheon. I camped with them 2 years ago and they were awesome, I might do it again if I could afford it, but man did they take the reason thing waaay too far sometimes. I was reminded at times of South Park's depiction of San Francisco. :)




After all this discussion, I do think I'll only sign up for two tickets, for me and my friend -- I'm going to sign up for a higher tier and partially subsidize my friends' ticket. For changing my mind, I give credit to several intelligent people in this forum, once they decided to stop trolling and actually say why they felt the way they did :)

And @Eric, though I don't have the blind optimism you do, I do hope you get a ticket this year too. And not just because you sound like you need a vacation.



Well, I'll think about it, but to be honest I'm usually a tiny bit over scheduled on Playa, and I totally cherish my "I'm going to go chase that thing and see what happens" time.


As for the second part, I'm kinda speechless. There was any part of a rational discussion on the internet? It actually changed planned behavior? WTF? Didn't anyone talk about Nazis and Sparkle Ponies?
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby This Woman » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:42 pm

Badger wrote: I do believe that, because there is a major difference between saving discretionary money beforehand to attend, and buying something and paying off your debt + interest. The only things that should paid for with payments are those that accrue value over time--and investment. Anything else is undeserving of interest payments.


While I agree with you fiscally – I don’t even have a credit card – my point was that it was presumptuous of you to opine on how people choose to use their money or credit. Actually, a lot of people here have been opinionated about how people spend their money.

Badger wrote: I think the major flaw in your logic is that you're assuming that ticket sales would have extended out to the same lengths of time as in previous years given the same scheme.


I am assuming that and I agree it may be a faulty assumption. I’m not convinced that the driving force is the demand. But, there are not a lot of similar events to compare it to. The reason I’m not convinced is that last year was the first time they sold out and it didn’t happen until the tickets had been on sale for months. Events sell out all the time though, and usually changes made to accommodate the sellouts happen after much consideration and warning. I don’t consider such a drastic change after only one sell out to be enough of either.

I think my big fail was using myself as an example because I figured it would be a good showcase for what I see as a problem. If I have anything more to say about it I’ll stop using my situation as an example. But I thank you and Trilobyte for a reasoned debate.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby This Woman » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:46 pm

@Pink, Oooooh, I have a following!
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby mdmf007 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:36 pm

Making mountains out of molehills - is this a different way of selling tickets - definitely.

It looks like to me that the drama to outcome ratio is way off. If its like this now, I cant wait for the complaints after things start to move.

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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby BBadger » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:15 pm

This Woman wrote:While I agree with you fiscally – I don’t even have a credit card – my point was that it was presumptuous of you to opine on how people choose to use their money or credit. Actually, a lot of people here have been opinionated about how people spend their money.


What is presumptuous is assuming that subjects are off-limits to judgement and opinion. This isn't a place where we tip-toe around peoples' feelings and subjects are immune to judgement. Don't get involved in discussions if you don't want your ideas and sentiments challenged.

I am assuming that and I agree it may be a faulty assumption. I’m not convinced that the driving force is the demand. But, there are not a lot of similar events to compare it to. The reason I’m not convinced is that last year was the first time they sold out and it didn’t happen until the tickets had been on sale for months. Events sell out all the time though, and usually changes made to accommodate the sellouts happen after much consideration and warning. I don’t consider such a drastic change after only one sell out to be enough of either.


I'd rather it didn't change either. My motives are different though: I feel I'd have a better chance at getting a cheaper ticket using the old system than the new.

On demand: if not demand, then what? Even hoarding is a function of demand; it's the result of demand prompted by fear. The lottery system was also not to counter sell-outs, but rather to prevent scalpers from working a system that they know has enough demand to sell-out.

When I read your posts, it seems most of your problems are from a lack of financial flexibility that assumed that tickets would still be available later in the year. That is fine, but one thing I don't understand is: what makes you prefer the old system, and why would it have worked out better than this lottery?

I think my big fail was using myself as an example because I figured it would be a good showcase for what I see as a problem.


Some people like to disconnect themselves from their claims so that that situation doesn't reflect poorly upon themselves. Is that the case here? Connecting it to yourself is actually a lot more compelling than those people who purport to be spokespersons for a supposed disenfranchised minority.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Mofessor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:47 pm

after what happened with Coachella today, I'm beginning to get worried. Very worried.

To recap Coachella's history: sold out for the first time two years ago. Last year took one week to sell out. This year, after doubling the number of tickets sold (from 65,000 to 130,000), it sold out in four hours. (there's an obvious lesson here about perceived scarcity and demand)

I'm sure some of the mods will make the argument that Burning Man is different because: 1. participants 2. the amount of time someone has to wait to get the actual tickets (June) discourages scalping. 3. other differences in ticket sales, etc.

The problem is, many scalpers, especially the larger ones, DO have deep pockets and can hold on to tickets for six months, especially for a guaranteed return on their investment. Not to mention that many people are registering for more tickets than they need so that they can ensure their friends/campmates have tickets. As someone mentioned earlier, if your system relies on everyone acting in only the way you want them to act in order for it to work, then your system is flawed.

And how could this have been avoided? Keep the lottery but put names on tickets, like they do at other large event festivals. Would this have necessitated someone to deal with exchanges? Sure. But for an event that has 50,000+ people and millions of $$$ for a budget, I'm sure something could have been created.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Sham » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:04 pm

Nothing is perfect but a big flaw in putting the names on the tickets is that I buy two every year, and I give one away to a person needing a ticket. I don't know who that person is right now. It may be early August until I offer up the ticket. Next flaw is the crazy logjam at the gate while volunteers check ID's of everyone and dealing with people who have a valid ticket, but ID is packed deep in the luggage.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:05 pm

Mofessor wrote: a guaranteed return on their investment.

It's not much of a guarentee. Yes, some tickets will be exchanged for sums of money we consider outrageous. But enough to make it worth their while? Even if you sell a 390 ticket for 1,000 after six months, that's not a lot of money to these scalpers--and, most tickets didn't go for that last year, and despite the sell out, most people who wanted to go got tickets at, close to, or under face value. Not much of an guarantee...

Mofessor wrote:And how could this have been avoided? Keep the lottery but put names on tickets, like they do at other large event festivals. Would this have necessitated someone to deal with exchanges? Sure. But for an event that has 50,000+ people and millions of $$$ for a budget, I'm sure something could have been created.

This has been rehashed multiple times in these threads. Poke around and I'm sure you'll find it.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby trilobyte » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:06 pm

I'll make the argument that your data's incorrect. Coachella sold out in 2004 (I remember a friend being offered a princely sum for his ticket the weekend before the event, when it turned out he was unable to go.. he graciously turned that down and sold it to a mutual friend at face value, good on him), and it's sold out many times since then.

Of course the bigger professional scalpers have deeper pockets. But why would you? Say for a moment that you're a pro scalper. There are unlimited opportunities to easily purchase quantities of tickets to hot selling sporting events and concerts in your area, and then turn them around for resale at huge markup in a few short weeks. The faster you turn it over, the sooner you can do it again and again. Do you pass up on all those opportunity to make the same or greater profit % per dollar invested in less time? If $350 gets you $1000 in your choice of a) 2-3 months, or b) 5-6 months and you choose b, you might be the king of dumb.

It's also important to point out that while Coachella required a portal registration of some sort (which most likely had to be done by a human), it was very much a first come first serve open sale, and a shining example of what happens if you don't have countermeasures in place for automated ticket buying software. The registration process renders the bot software useless, and offers the BMOrg and the ticketing vendor to scrub known scalpers (and scammers) from the list before the drawing happens.

Names on tickets for all participants would have been a monumentally bad idea. Never mind the massive delays at the gate while tickets were matched up (remember, festivals like Glastonbury have 7 gates and STILL experiences huge delays for entry), but the prospect of entire vehicles being turned around and sent away because a name didn't match up could be a huge problem. No thanks.

Don't be so quick to judge a system as a failure based upon the failures and shortcomings of some other organization's completely different system.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Mofessor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:19 pm

I hope you're right. I hope that scalpers ARE discouraged by the six months. I hope that a registration system that eliminates bots works. I'm worried that it won't, and there are already signs that point to problems. But I guess that we'll find out soon enough.

I do disagree that names on tickets would make entry considerably slower. I've been to Glastonbury and it didn't slow things down that much. There really wasn't much of a difference between entrance times there vs. Coachella. Besides, with people already searching the trunk, etc. it's not like it would take much longer to look at an ID and match it with a ticket.

As for when Coachella sold out... my memory is that it had sold out on particular days of the event, but not for the whole event. For instance, the 2004 show only sold out on Saturday, I think, and that was toward the very end. Feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong, I'm only relying on my memory. Nevertheless, it's nothing like the progressive mania that's taken over the last 3 years. And that feels quite a bit like how Burning Man is going this year.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby trilobyte » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:41 pm

You are, of course, free to let your life be ruled by fear, uncertainty, and doubt as you see fit. Coachella was completely sold out that year (I believe in 2003 only one day sold out). Weekend passes for the then 2-day event went almost immediately, followed shortly after by all the Saturday single day tickets. Tickets to Sunday also sold out a few weeks later. It has sold out numerous times since then.

Glasto has 7 gates, man. To Burning Man's single point of entry. Also, English countryside = easy to turn away someone with a mis-matched name. High altitude desert = not so easy. Glastonbury's (as well as many other festivals') models were studied long and hard as the BMOrg considered their options, it just wasn't the right solution for Burning Man. I think the FAQ sums it up nicely.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Mofessor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:58 pm

yawn... your condescension ("free to let your life be ruled by fear, uncertainty, and doubt as you see fit.") would be easier to digest if I believed your position as a mod didn't guarantee you a ticket.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Savannah » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:00 pm

Mofessor wrote:yawn... your condescension ("free to let your life be ruled by fear, uncertainty, and doubt as you see fit.") would be easier to digest if I believed your position as a mod didn't guarantee you a ticket.


It doesn't, actually. :)
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Mofessor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:03 pm

then, truly, that sucks. Although I'm not always in agreement with what mods say, it seems like all the effort you put in should be rewarded with a guaranteed spot.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Sham » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:08 pm

I have strong faith in our community that things will stay on the straight and narrow. Last year the prices spiked and there were examples of gouging on ebay after the event sold out at the end of July. Within a fairly short time, most prices were back down to earth and tickets exchanged hands within the community.
The rule of thumb is for people not to panic. There truly are plenty of tickets for most everyone to attend. Now especially is not a time to become worried--ticket names have not even been drawn yet.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Savannah » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:12 pm

Mofessor wrote:then, truly, that sucks. Although I'm not always in agreement with what mods say, it seems like all the effort you put in should be rewarded with a guaranteed spot.


Well--I think it's very kind of you to appreciate us (regardless of natural disagreements that can arise). Thank you.

I was actually advised coming into the position that I should expect no preferential treatment re: tickets. It was something I hadn't even thought of, so I laughed at the time. I just wanted to flit about and whack some spam!

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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby AntiM » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:39 pm

As a mod, I was surprised with gift tickets a couple times, but it was last minute, and I already had tickets in hand. Did have "gift" printed on it, which was cool. Helped me get tickets into the hands of those without. But never, ever was something to count on.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:58 pm

My tickets are already sorted. Not through any kind of gift or comped tix, but because my wonderful girlfriend surprised me by hooking that up (she registered for and was awarded tix in the pre-sale).
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby junglesmacks » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:36 pm

trilobyte wrote:My tickets are already sorted. Not through any kind of gift or comped tix, but because my wonderful girlfriend surprised me by hooking that up (she registered for and was awarded tix in the pre-sale).


I can vouch for this.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Eric » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:19 pm

Mofessor- in regards to the "name on ticket" idea (that's been talked to death over the last few months): not only does the LLC, by their own admission in the FAQ, not have the resources to do that system, but there is also the fact that lots of us don't want to go through the TSA to get into the event. I'm fine with the Gate search (we don't carry stow-aways & I know why they do it), but having to give my ID when I flash my ticket is really an intrusion I don't want when I'm trying to get away from "normal society" and it's paranoia.

Q: Why not just register each ticket with a name and require ID at the Gate to use the ticket?
A: It has been our experience that a great many tickets are purchased for giving away, ensuring a project has coverage, or selling later to a friend in need. The administrative cost of changing the name on every ticket that ever changes hands exceeds our capacity. And frankly, many of your fellow BRC citizens are uncomfortable with the notion of showing ID just to enter the event (nor suffering through even longer wait times at the Gate). While we know some events use non-transferable tickets, we're not convinced it works for our community. We're counting on everyone playing fairly so we don't have to go to an "ID-specific" process for ticket sales and event entry.


I couldn't agree with the no-name-on-tickets more, and, yes, like the other Mods my name is in the lottery. I've never understood the complete freakout over the change- it's like people would rather have it sell out in a week with tons of people getting screwed than have an extremely good chance of getting a ticket.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby darcitananda » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:46 pm

I don't think "everyone" is buying too many tickets, but those who do are posting about it here with their strategies and justifications, etc.. Most of my friends are registering for what they need for themselves.

I actually like the lottery system. I didn't have to be online at a specific time, didn't have to worry about my interwebs getting suddenly disconnected... I just registered in the main sale for two tickets (one for me and one for my bf). If I don't get them I'll have a third chance to register in the Open Sale (since I skipped the pre-sale). If I don't get them in either of those sales, then I'll have yet another chance, come June, to purchase tickets from someone who has "hoarded" or changed their plans. I'm really not that worried. I also have come to terms with the fact that I may not get ANY tickets. But I can still participate in other ways. It's not going to stop me from taking on projects, helping friends with their projects, or going to events, or riding my bike etc...
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby RedHeaven » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:53 pm

Man, people sure are loose with their credit cards. I for one do not need that worry of having to resell a ticket, nor do I want to pay interest on my card for someone elses ticket. I just can't deal with that....I had to forgo any anxiety and just register for one for myself. I better get a Good Samaritan ticket ;) hehehehh
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby remi » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:13 pm

Eric wrote:I've never understood the complete freakout over the change- it's like people would rather have it sell out in a week with tons of people getting screwed than have an extremely good chance of getting a ticket.


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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Nipple » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:09 pm

Eric wrote:I couldn't agree with the no-name-on-tickets more, and, yes, like the other Mods my name is in the lottery. I've never understood the complete freakout over the change- it's like people would rather have it sell out in a week with tons of people getting screwed than have an extremely good chance of getting a ticket.


Change is hell of scary.

I'm all gazin' in to my crystal ball and seeing that these threads have a very short life expectancy. 3 or 4 weeks, tops. I mean, I'm not a doctor, but these threads should probably sort their finances and spend some quality time with loved ones.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby wh..sh » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:55 pm

Nipple wrote:I'm all gazin' in to my crystal ball and seeing that these threads have a very short life expectancy. 3 or 4 weeks, tops. I mean, I'm not a doctor, but these threads should probably sort their finances and spend some quality time with loved ones.


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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby NOT Larry HarV » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:12 am

Of course people will and should hoard....
I already know of art projects that probably can NOT attend since their crews all tried to get early tickets and most of them did not get enough tickets to staff their project, and now can't enter the main drawing.
What a great way to reward participation.(sarcasm flooding out of pie hole)
I AM SO GLAD SPECTATORS GET AN EQUAL CHANCE (sarcasm flooding out of pie hole).....SO MUCH FOR CREATING A BETTER EVENT

To all who want to make sure they get enough tickets....
Don't worry about all this CRAP being spouted here about interest charges and getting stuck with a high credit card bill....


1. FALSE: too many tickets = high credit card bill
as soon as you get enough tickets, deny all future charges, not only is this legal but you only have 60 days from purchase date to do it and since you won't have your ticket 60 days from purchase you are fully justified to refuse to pay and the credit card company will side with you (God forbid the ticket doesn't actually get to you after 60 days)

2. FALSE: High interest payments while waiting to re-sell
Only pay for the ones you actually want.....see above

I can't wait to see what comes first:

A - moderator denies me my right to free speech and your right to:
Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests.[1] The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty.

OR....

B - The liberal responses to me helping my fellow Burner PARTICIPANT accomplish their goal while not getting trampled by the BORG

2011 - PARTICIPANTS planned ahead and got a ticket
- SPECTATORS didn't plan, didn't get a ticket, complained (as usual) and created a CLUSTERF@$$CK
- 5 MONTHS was MORE than enough time to get a ticket 1/11- 6/11
2012 - every lazy spectator has the same chance to get a ticket as the Artists who participate and make the event what it is.
- lets all say it one more time.....What a great way to reward participation.(sarcasm flooding out of pie hole)
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby junglesmacks » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:31 am

Larry HarV wrote:I already know of art projects that probably can NOT attend since their crews all tried to get early tickets and most of them did not get enough tickets to staff their project, and now can't enter the main drawing.



I call bullshit. We haven't seen one documented case where anyone was truly turned down for pre-sale tickets because of scarcity. If someone was turned down, then they would be entered into the main drawing. If someone was indeed turned down for lack of available tickets in pre-sale, there are still 50k more tickets to be sold. Saying that OMGOMGOMG someone can't attend because they didn't get a pre-sale ticket and now BM 2012 is doomed for them is defeatist and just down right silly. Stay home and cry while we all get dusty.. your choice.

Your statement lacks validity and reeks of fail.


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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby remi » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:53 am

Larry HarV wrote:Of course people will and should hoard....
I already know of art projects that probably can NOT attend since their crews all tried to get early tickets and most of them did not get enough tickets to staff their project, and now can't enter the main drawing.
What a great way to reward participation.(sarcasm flooding out of pie hole)
I AM SO GLAD SPECTATORS GET AN EQUAL CHANCE (sarcasm flooding out of pie hole).....SO MUCH FOR CREATING A BETTER EVENT

To all who want to make sure they get enough tickets....
Don't worry about all this CRAP being spouted here about interest charges and getting stuck with a high credit card bill....


1. FALSE: too many tickets = high credit card bill
as soon as you get enough tickets, deny all future charges, not only is this legal but you only have 60 days from purchase date to do it and since you won't have your ticket 60 days from purchase you are fully justified to refuse to pay and the credit card company will side with you (God forbid the ticket doesn't actually get to you after 60 days)

2. FALSE: High interest payments while waiting to re-sell
Only pay for the ones you actually want.....see above

I can't wait to see what comes first:

A - moderator denies me my right to free speech and your right to:
Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests.[1] The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty.

OR....

B - The liberal responses to me helping my fellow Burner PARTICIPANT accomplish their goal while not getting trampled by the BORG

2011 - PARTICIPANTS planned ahead and got a ticket
- SPECTATORS didn't plan, didn't get a ticket, complained (as usual) and created a CLUSTERF@$$CK
- 5 MONTHS was MORE than enough time to get a ticket 1/11- 6/11
2012 - every lazy spectator has the same chance to get a ticket as the Artists who participate and make the event what it is.
- lets all say it one more time.....What a great way to reward participation.(sarcasm flooding out of pie hole)



Or C The mods leave your post on because you look like a fuckin' dumbass. Every single person I know (and heard of) that attemped for and extra early bird got one.. so the projects "crews" your talking about shouldn't be bitching, because they sound like a bunch of procrastinators that this system was built to help. If they were on the ball and registered like everyone else in early December.. they would be like me right now.. not a care in the world... I got my ticket on lock down.

We all see you have one post.. so maybe do a little research before you come here and make yourself look like a retard.
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Re: Everyone buying too many tickets?

Postby Nipple » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:27 am

Larry HarV wrote:I can't wait to see what comes first:

A - moderator denies me my right to free speech and your right to:
Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests.[1] The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty.


Couple things... Freedom of Speech doesn't work that way. You're not insured Freedom of Speech on someone else's website that they fund. You're posting entirely at the pleasure of other people here, and you can and will be silenced for very good reason or sheer whim. The mods here have a track record of being pretty fair. You certainly do NOT have a constitutional right to post on ePlaya.

Secondly, my guess is you'll probably be silenced quick-smart for your choice in pen names. I mean, unless you're ACTUALLY Larry Harvey, in which case... did you forget your password? One of the mods can help you with that, I'm sure.
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