Tier Terrorists

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Tier Terrorists

Postby dw-net » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:56 pm

So to increase my odds, I have decided to enter all 3 tiers. I end up being the 5999th name drawn. What tier tickets do I get? Although, that issue has, I'm sure been addressed somewhere in the ridiculous amount of verbiage generated by the "new" system, I have not been able to readily find the answer!
Regardless of what the answer is, it automatically skews the whole process. Why not just have everyone who registers for the main sale be eligible for all levels? Would ultimately be far fairer! 1st drawn gets lowest tier, 2nd drawn gets mid tier, 3rd highest, 4th highest, 5th mid, 6th lowest, 7th mid, 8th highest, 9th highest, 10th mid, 11th lowest, etc, etc.
Any other system is going to skew towards all the lowest or all the highest tickets being awarded earlier or later which is entirely unfair towards those who have yet to be drawn regardless of the level(s) they are eligible for! Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!
The only true "all inclusive" advantage of the new system is that BMorg is pretty much guaranteed far earlier access to a much larger portion of the total ticket sales!
It's not too late to can this poorly thought out travesty and announce a single price for all tickets! $345!
What was the outcome of the Pre-sale sale? Were all 3,000 tickets sold? If not, are tickets still available at that price?
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby International Incident » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:38 pm

Stop stressing and worrying about stuff you can’t change! The sky hasn’t fallen in and it won’t.

Let’s just see how it all shakes out.

You’ll get a ticket. The damn thing didn’t sell out til JULY last burn.

Those that enter the ballot will probably be fine. And hey there will be plenty of people on selling their extras they bought (because of asking for more than they need) at face value.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby BBadger » Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:24 am

So let's see, you first acknowledge that your question has been answered somewhere, but that you can't find the answers. Then, after this, you automatically jump to the unfounded conclusion that it automatically "skews" the whole process despite stating that you don't even know how it all works?

Answer me this: what makes the drawing unfair, considering that everyone gets drawn randomly?
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Rice » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:21 am

In 2011 there were about 30000 tickets sold the first day of sales (that is all of tier 1 and 2, with some of tier 3 - I believe).

How does the new lottery system give Burning Man LLC quicker access to greater funds? If anything, it delays access.

At worst, you will pay the highest tier you have registered in. Nothing more. How again is the a conspiracy?


I guess you have two choices.

1. Accept that the system is honest and play.

2. Believe the system is somehow rigged, and decline playing.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:55 pm

stretch80 wrote:How again is the a conspiracy?

From my years on this board, I have seen that for a chunk of the burningman population, anything the llc does is a conspiracy. I have never figured out to what end, but that's conspiracy theory for you...
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Rice » Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:06 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
stretch80 wrote:How again is the a conspiracy?

From my years on this board, I have seen that for a chunk of the burningman population, anything the llc does is a conspiracy. I have never figured out to what end, but that's conspiracy theory for you...


LOL! Too true :)

It is highly unlikely that the assorted "Powers The Be" in the BM LLC have decided "Lets mess with Burner-Bob's burn..."

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I am constantly surprised at how few of those opinions are based on reality.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby ygmir » Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:06 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
stretch80 wrote:How again is the a conspiracy?

From my years on this board, I have seen that for a chunk of the burningman population, anything the llc does is a conspiracy. I have never figured out to what end, but that's conspiracy theory for you...


that about says it all............some of us, just love a good conspiracy.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby A Jester » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:45 pm

dw-net wrote:So to increase my odds, I have decided to enter all 3 tiers. I end up being the 5999th name drawn. What tier tickets do I get? Although, that issue has, I'm sure been addressed somewhere in the ridiculous amount of verbiage generated by the "new" system, I have not been able to readily find the answer!

I don't believe this has been officially answered, but in another thread Eric says he thinks the tiers will be drawn 1,2,3.
viewtopic.php?f=290&t=52556&start=60


Regardless of what the answer is, it automatically skews the whole process.

wait, what? If by "skews" you mean it's different than last year, yes. It's also possible, in our futuristic world of super computers, that all tiers could be drawn at the same time.

Why not just have everyone who registers for the main sale be eligible for all levels? Would ultimately be far fairer! 1st drawn gets lowest tier, 2nd drawn gets mid tier, 3rd highest, 4th highest, 5th mid, 6th lowest, 7th mid, 8th highest, 9th highest, 10th mid, 11th lowest, etc, etc.

Because then people would complain that they couldn't afford the highest tier, and didn't have a chance at the lowest tier. I'm not sure if you notice, but it appears that Burners have quite a lot of time to create complaints if there is a change in a system.

Any other system is going to skew towards all the lowest or all the highest tickets being awarded earlier or later which is entirely unfair towards those who have yet to be drawn regardless of the level(s) they are eligible for! Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!


I'm not sure if randomness can be called "unfair". Well, I take it back, no matter what is done it will be called unfair by someone.

The only true "all inclusive" advantage of the new system is that BMorg is pretty much guaranteed far earlier access to a much larger portion of the total ticket sales!
It's not too late to can this poorly thought out travesty and announce a single price for all tickets! $345!
What was the outcome of the Pre-sale sale? Were all 3,000 tickets sold? If not, are tickets still available at that price?



They say it also gives an opportunity for more people to have access to buying lower tier tickets and reduces the effectiveness of scalping. I agree that the tiers are basically a legacy issue, they were originally used to get the Org money in advance, and it sure seems like the Org will be getting plenty of money in advance and not need the tiers. However, I can also assure you that if the tiers were removed, there would be an even crapstorm of complaints about how
Laughing Forest wrote:This is all just so UNFAIR!!!

The Burning Man 1% have made manifesting a ticket IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!


Like you, I wonder about the tickets. I haven't heard of anyone not getting one, so I assume that means they didn't sell out. They are no longer available at that price, unsold tickets will be released in the open sale (not the main sale lottery). Check the faq.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby dw-net » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:31 pm

Thanks for all the feedback folks! Some of you, it would seem had too much fun on New Year's Eve! Where did I say anything about a conspiracy? I simply point out that regardless of how the tiers are distributed by the process that has been defined and disclosed to date, the distribution process cannot be truly "random" by any unimagined definition of that over-used term. Thus it no more equalizes opportunity than last year's fiasco that even I do not wish to see repeated.
For all the verbiage in my initial post, the only significant point.... The surest way to equalize opportunity is to announce a single price for all tickets! $345! Or whatever price BMorg deems to be the most likely to ensure a "successful(?)" event! All problems solved! Notice, please, that I did not say all complaints will cease!
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby BBadger » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:18 pm

Ah, even more "radical delusion".

Yes, the ticket process is random. Everyone gets drawn for the cheapest tier first; winners are removed and the next tier's tickets are drawn; rinse and repeat.

You're confusing "true" randomness with your own set of conditions whereby you get a ticket at a <i>specific price point.</i> Just think of the sale as three separate sales for each of the three tiers, in which everyone who enters for every subsequent tier also signed up for the first. You don't need to sign up for the later drawings if you don't want to. In effect, the drawings for the tickets will be carried out in that manner above anyway.

What you ended up proposing is the same thing as someone signing up with Tier 3 as the highest priced tier he/she would be willing to pay for. In the current system people can choose the highest priced tier within their budgets. Pricing all tickets the same would not create the same early demand that having tiers would. People could just put off their purchases until very late, knowing that there is no gain in buying early.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby 5280MeV » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:02 am

dw-net wrote:Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!



I don't think that this is the reason for the new system. The original Jack Rabbit Speaks email that went out said the following:

The big news: tickets to Burning Man 2012 will be offered via a lottery system. This solution offers a two-fold benefit: it eliminates the annual ticket sales rush by spreading out registration over time (no more sitting in "line" all day, no more getting kicked out of the queue, no sudden unwieldy server demand!) -- and it begins to address the challenges of scarcity. We are also intent upon creating a balance of opportunity across a few months time.


The real reason for the system is to avoid a giant rush for tickets at a specific moment, and allow for this opportunity to buy tickets to be stretched out over a few weeks, so that the system doesn't penalize the people who cannot be sitting at a computer the exact moment that tickets go on sale.

Frankly, the new system is functionally equivalent to the old system from the buyer's perspective, except that you don't have to worry about being there at just the right moment. The only other feature of the new system is that the buyer no longer has the illusion of control over their fate, whereas with the old system someone might be inclined to believe that they would improve their odds by clicking at just the right time.

The only true "all inclusive" advantage of the new system is that BMorg is pretty much guaranteed far earlier access to a much larger portion of the total ticket sales!


My understanding is that this has always been the primary reason for having tiers in the first place. It has nothing to do with opportunity or inclusion - that is what the low income program is for. The point was always to encourage early ticket purchases and reward people for doing so, as this gave the org money earlier which it desperately needed to pay people and contractors.

So the tiers still serve that purpose, only the reward is probabilistic, you buy a ticket early, and this gives you a chance at a cheaper ticket.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby remi » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:32 am

[quote="5280MeV]So the tiers still serve that purpose, only the reward is probabilistic, you buy a ticket early, and this gives you a chance at a cheaper ticket.[/quote]

Unless you got the 420$ presale...
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Sail Man » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:21 pm

stretch80 wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
stretch80 wrote:How again is the a conspiracy?

From my years on this board, I have seen that for a chunk of the burningman population, anything the llc does is a conspiracy. I have never figured out to what end, but that's conspiracy theory for you...


LOL! Too true :)

It is highly unlikely that the assorted "Powers The Be" in the BM LLC have decided "Lets mess with Burner-Bob's burn..."

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I am constantly surprised at how few of those opinions are based on reality.


So then, what is messing with Bob's burn? The dust? Mercy, mercy, mercy....... :wink:
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby dw-net » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:35 pm

"People could just put off their purchases until very late, knowing that there is no gain in buying early."

Unless, of course, say 95% of all the tickets were only offered for sale in the months of, say January or February! Still feel that a single price tier would be the fairest and most hassle-free for all involved!
I'm not much concerned about being selected for any particular tier! A few years back, I bought 3 separate tickets in order to get there! I lost the low tier one (it reappeared a few months ago) bought a second hand high tier, and then a discounted last-minute-sale high tier. The last was the ticket I used and BMorg refunded my second one. If you know any collectors looking for a virgin, never used, low tier ticket for 2009, complete with unremoved entry stub, let me know!
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby chasomatic » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:03 pm

I just hate the fact that this is all being done to support the Procrastinators. Let's see, could self-reliance be expressed in not waiting to the last minute to get your ticket? Why are we causing all this pain and suffering for people that can't get it done. The procrastinators will probably be whining in August that they didn't enter the Lottery and now have to buy high priced aftermarket tickets. Screw all procrastinators!
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:36 pm

chasomatic wrote:I just hate the fact that this is all being done to support the Procrastinators. Let's see, could self-reliance be expressed in not waiting to the last minute to get your ticket? Why are we causing all this pain and suffering for people that can't get it done. The procrastinators will probably be whining in August that they didn't enter the Lottery and now have to buy high priced aftermarket tickets. Screw all procrastinators!

Oh you're a nasty little siht, aren't you?
Some people live by the clock and deadlines, others don't. Procrastination isn't a moral failing, it's a different way of being. It's an openness to new experiences, to continuing creativity, to spontenaity. So called "procrasintators" end up bringing a lot of worthwhile stuff to the playa and their contributions should be celebrated. I can't imagine how boring the event would be if the only people who made it were the rigid ones.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby feistypenguin » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:09 pm

After reading a lot of the back and forth about the new ticket sales method, I have deduced that there is an inverse relationship between fretting about the ticket system, and the length of time one is able to stay aroused during coitus.

Please pass this information along post-haste to anyone you think may be afflicted with this issue!

...Oh, and please don't hate on procrastinators. I don't have much sympathy for procrastinators who don't do it well... but it is a valuable skill with definite health benefits. With proper amounts of procrastination, I avoided a lot of the chronic stress issues my colleagues experienced through high school and college, and I am quite convinced I got laid more because of it (not from partying mind you, but from not being burnt out all of the time.)
After painstakingly researching the new ticket sale system, I have deduced that there is an inverse relationship between fretting about the ticket system, and the length of time one is able to stay aroused during coitus. Please spread the word!
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Giacamogio » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:11 pm

dw-net wrote:So to increase my odds, I have decided to enter all 3 tiers. I end up being the 5999th name drawn. What tier tickets do I get? Although, that issue has, I'm sure been addressed somewhere in the ridiculous amount of verbiage generated by the "new" system, I have not been able to readily find the answer!
Regardless of what the answer is, it automatically skews the whole process. Why not just have everyone who registers for the main sale be eligible for all levels? Would ultimately be far fairer! 1st drawn gets lowest tier, 2nd drawn gets mid tier, 3rd highest, 4th highest, 5th mid, 6th lowest, 7th mid, 8th highest, 9th highest, 10th mid, 11th lowest, etc, etc.
Any other system is going to skew towards all the lowest or all the highest tickets being awarded earlier or later which is entirely unfair towards those who have yet to be drawn regardless of the level(s) they are eligible for! Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!
The only true "all inclusive" advantage of the new system is that BMorg is pretty much guaranteed far earlier access to a much larger portion of the total ticket sales!
It's not too late to can this poorly thought out travesty and announce a single price for all tickets! $345!
What was the outcome of the Pre-sale sale? Were all 3,000 tickets sold? If not, are tickets still available at that price?


I believe this whole enterprise is a smoke screen for two things:
1. Burning Man didn't want to spend the money to fix their online ticketing system.
2. Burning Man wants to skew their average ticket price higher--especially earlier in the sales window.

Yuck. I am not satisfied as a customer.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:09 pm

Giacamogio wrote:I believe this whole enterprise is a smoke screen for two things:
1. Burning Man didn't want to spend the money to fix their online ticketing system.
2. Burning Man wants to skew their average ticket price higher--especially earlier in the sales window.

Yuck. I am not satisfied as a customer.

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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby A Jester » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:38 pm

chasomatic wrote:I just hate the fact that this is all being done to support the Procrastinators. Let's see, could self-reliance be expressed in not waiting to the last minute to get your ticket? Why are we causing all this pain and suffering for people that can't get it done. The procrastinators will probably be whining in August that they didn't enter the Lottery and now have to buy high priced aftermarket tickets. Screw all procrastinators!


Nope.

This is being done to help the servers not crash.

Seriously, it probably hurts the procrastinators. They have until the 22nd to enter this drawing.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby BBadger » Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:57 pm

A Jester wrote:Seriously, it probably hurts the procrastinators. They have until the 22nd to enter this drawing.


If I hear people whining that they missed out two years in a row because they procrastinated...

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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby dw-net » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!

Frogbird wrote:
"I don't think that this is the reason for the new system. The original Jack Rabbit Speaks email that went out said the following:"

"Under a random selection ticket process, a limited number of tickets will be made available in order to create equal opportunity for participants to purchase tickets for the Event." from the Ticket Drawing Registration page legal mumbo jumbo!

Think whatever you like, though
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby 5280MeV » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:55 pm

dw-net wrote:Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!

Frogbird wrote:
"I don't think that this is the reason for the new system. The original Jack Rabbit Speaks email that went out said the following:"

"Under a random selection ticket process, a limited number of tickets will be made available in order to create equal opportunity for participants to purchase tickets for the Event." from the Ticket Drawing Registration page legal mumbo jumbo!

Think whatever you like, though


I was not at the discussion where people were using the term "equal opportunity to purchase tickets," when the BMorg discussed this, but it does ensure the following:

Everyone with at least $240 before January 22nd has an equal chance at getting a Tier-1 ticket.

Everyone with at least $320 before January 22nd who did not get a Tier-1 ticket has an equal chance at getting a Tier-2 ticket.

Everyone with at least $390 before January 22nd who did not get a Tier-1 or Tier-2 ticket has an equal chance at getting a Tier-3 ticket.

Is that what they really wanted? I dunno.

I don't really care either, as the new system is functionally equivalent to the old system for me.

Actually it is better for me as I was in a meeting at 12:00 PST and it would have looked really bad for me to be waving around a credit card buying stuff online when I am supposed to be reporting on the status of various computing things. So it did give me an equal opportunity to purchase tickets that I otherwise would not have had without taking a day off to sit and stare at the ticket page.

Other people have to drive ambulances, perform surgery, control air traffic, put out fires, and do all sorts of important stuff at January 9 12:00 PST. Now they get as good a chance as anyone else to get a ticket. I like that.

Maybe for different reasons, but I do think that ultimately you are probably right that the best thing to do is to eventually just drop the tiers completely - not my call to make though.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby BBadger » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:00 am

5280MeV wrote:Actually it is better for me as I was in a meeting at 12:00 PST and it would have looked really bad for me to be waving around a credit card buying stuff online when I am supposed to be reporting on the status of various computing things. So it did give me an equal opportunity to purchase tickets that I otherwise would not have had without taking a day off to sit and stare at the ticket page.


If the old system were in place, there should be one of those cell phone commercials "that is so 22 seconds ago!" about buying BM tickets. They do have one about football tickets though.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Raymaker » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:44 am

I'm just waiting for the posts (and replies) from people who come on here in July asking how they go about applying for a ticket.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby BBadger » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:03 am

Raymaker wrote:I'm just waiting for the posts (and replies) from people who come on here in July asking how they go about applying for a ticket.


I know there is a news item on the front page now, but often it is relatively hard to locate the link to the tickets page. One would expect it to be prominently displayed on the front website as a permanent main link rather than a news item. Then again, maybe that sifts out some of the riff-raff.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby trilobyte » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:29 am

As it had been explained to me in my first year by my campmates, it was a radical self reliance thing.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Eric » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:42 pm

dw-net wrote:Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds!


You kind of left off half the sentence there, it should be: "i.e. to "equalize" the odds in a world where there is more demand than available tickets"

The part that everyone seems to be willfully ignoring in all of the uproar over the tickets is that the event sold out last year, is expected to sell out this year, and will most likely continue to sell out in the future. The drawing isn't about raising buckets of cash, it's about giving everyone as fair a chance as possible to get a ticket. Hopefully the sell-out will only affect a very small percentage of people who want to go, but this at least makes it as "equal" as possible without completely throwing the vaunted ideals of the event out the window (you know, by doing things like "only people who've been before can enter the first drawing" and all the other elitist crap that's been bandied about).

The only issue with the Main Sale will be the number of people hoarding tickets, and I hope that won't be as large of a problem as I've been hearing.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby chasomatic » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:15 pm

[quote="Eric"][quote="dw-net"]Which pretty much defeats the "new" system's raisonne d'etre i.e. to "equalize" the odds![/quote]

You kind of left off half the sentence there, it should be: "i.e. to "equalize" the odds [u]in a world where there is more demand than available tickets[/u]"

The part that everyone seems to be willfully ignoring in all of the uproar over the tickets is that the event sold out last year, is expected to sell out this year, and will most likely continue to sell out in the future. The drawing isn't about raising buckets of cash, it's about giving everyone as fair a chance [b][u]as possible[/u][/b] to get a ticket. Hopefully the sell-out will only affect a very small percentage of people who want to go, but this at least makes it as "equal" as possible without completely throwing the vaunted ideals of the event out the window (you know, by doing things like "only people who've been before can enter the first drawing" and all the other elitist crap that's been bandied about).

The only issue with the Main Sale will be the number of people hoarding tickets, and I hope that won't be as large of a problem as I've been hearing.[/quote]

What I'm unclear on is, when did the tickets sell out last year? Was it in June?, July? August? Was there plenty of time (4 to 5 months) for everyone to get tickets that wanted them?
I can understand this lottery crap if the tickets sold out in February, in that case it was definitely a system that needed fixin. When did they sell out, anybody know? I'm in the lottery and have 2 non-burner friends in the lottery as well, I think I'll get tickets, maybe 6 tickets (I only need 2). If I do, I'll sell the highest priced ones (face value) in the summer when it'll be most fun.
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Re: Tier Terrorists

Postby Eric » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:40 pm

chasomatic wrote:What I'm unclear on is, when did the tickets sell out last year? Was it in June?, July? August? Was there plenty of time (4 to 5 months) for everyone to get tickets that wanted them?
I can understand this lottery crap if the tickets sold out in February, in that case it was definitely a system that needed fixin. When did they sell out, anybody know? I'm in the lottery and have 2 non-burner friends in the lottery as well, I think I'll get tickets, maybe 6 tickets (I only need 2). If I do, I'll sell the highest priced ones (face value) in the summer when it'll be most fun.


Last year the tickets sold out about July 24th; however almost 30,00 sold in January (that's 3/5th of all tickets sold). It was the first time the event ever sold out and people Freaked, you would have thought the end of the world was happening.

With that knowledge, the LLC realized it was probably likely that there would be a sell out in the first week or so this year as everyone panicked based on last year, by doing the drawings they at least spread the chance out of people getting them. This is also why there's a release of tickets in late March- it gives another chance to get one on a first-come, first-served basis.

As for those 4 extra tickets you don't need but have people ordering for you- just think of those as being taken away from another Burner who only entered for what they actually need. I am not having warm-fuzzies for hoarders.
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