Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Want to talk about tickets? You've come to the right place

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Marscrumbs » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:06 pm

Everything has changed this year. Last year will probably be my last year unless, I get very lucky.

I've been going to Burning Man since the wild west days and have always planned ahead to be able to get affordable tickets. I'm not poor, but have a modest income So I applied for 1st tier tickets only. I've just read on the Rabbit this year I have only a slim change of getting the ticket I need under my control, self reliance indeed. Or must play games these next few months to see if I can find a ticket, when I could be preparing for the burn instead.

What a mind fuck, and I'm not alone.
User avatar
Marscrumbs
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:45 pm
Location: Bishop Ca

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Nipple » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:08 pm

Like I told my ladyfriend when she IM'd me today...

"We'll be fine. Plan on going.
We have resources, and we have long vision and are generally well planned out."
User avatar
Nipple
 
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:36 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby vargaso » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:42 pm

trilobyte wrote:
The system was designed so that if there was no freakout, there'd be tickets for everyone in the drawing. Registration keeps out a chunk of the scalpers, and levels the playing field so that people who couldn't camp in front of the computer during an on-sale day (or whose internet connection isn't as fast) gets a chance too.


But everyone knew there'd be a freakout, c'mon. And more to the point, USE ANOTHER VENDOR BESIDES INTICKETING AND THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO CAMP OUT IN FRONt OF A COMPUTER FOR HOURS BECAUSE, LIKE ANY OTHER LARGE EVENT, THE SYSTEM COULD HANDLE AN ONSLAUGHT OF USERS AND YOU'D KNOW IN A MATTER OF MINUTES WHETHER YOU GOT A TICKET OR NOT.

For fuck's sake.
User avatar
vargaso
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Location: Lincoln, CA
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby AntiM » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:45 pm

Presale worked better for me, because I knew 100% I would not be able to camp out at a computer on ticket release day. Lots of people cannot.

Hey, can we have an "I'm Eating Crow" thread next week?
These are not my fuckos.
User avatar
AntiM
Moderator
 
Posts: 16387
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:23 am
Location: Top O' the World, Ma!
Burning Since: 2001
Camp Name: Anti M's Home for Wayward Art

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby trilobyte » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:46 pm

You're missing the point. Selling the event out in an hour is absolutely not the goal. Read the FAQ.

For fuck's sake.
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10628
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby vargaso » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:52 pm

trilobyte wrote:You're missing the point. Selling the event out in an hour is absolutely not the goal. Read the FAQ.

For fuck's sake.


That seems to be a case of ideology over practicality. Why is the goal not to sell out in a matter of hours? Why shouldn't the goal be to decrease the amount of uncertainty and hassle in the process? I know I know, this has all been beaten to a pulp in the past few weeks, I only bring it up because quite literally every concern those of us who have had issues with the lottery have, so far, come to pass, despite the ongoing attempts to quell dissent. I have no doubts at this point that all the other concerns around the resale market and scalpers will also come to fruition. Oh well.
User avatar
vargaso
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Location: Lincoln, CA
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Water Dog » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:56 pm

After many years of daydreaming about BM and finally fulfilling various obligations that interfered with scheduled, I decided to go to 2012 and registered in the lottery for 2 tix for me and the GF.

What's the likelihood that my ticket registration would be deemed that of a scalper because none of my info would be familiar from years past?
What is the point of being alive if I don't at least try to do something remarkable?
User avatar
Water Dog
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:52 pm
Location: Ventura, CA

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby trilobyte » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:58 pm

You have nothing to worry about, Water Dog. I wish you guys luck!
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10628
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Savannah » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:02 pm

Thanks to last year's ticket sellout, and the measures that demand vs. supply have created, I actually don't think we will actually know whether the system is a success or a failure until the March sale has taken place, and the official ticket resale system has had a chance to work for a few months. It cannot be a failure until we have had a chance to see what Burners who bought more than they needed will actually do when they are given a chance to distribute fairly what they have hoarded. The onus is . . . on us.

It was either Burners having more of the tickets (this way), or scalpers having more of the tickets the old way. I still think Burners will do a kinder, better job of things. Not because we are so high and mighty and perfect, but because a lot of us have been to the playa before, and are capable of feeling the pull to do the merciful thing. It's not in a scalper's nature, by definition.
*** 2013 Survival Guide ***

"I must've lost it when I was twerking at the trash fence." -- BBadger

"Snark away, ePlaya, you magnificent bastards." -- McStrangle
User avatar
Savannah
Moderator
 
Posts: 10524
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:33 pm
Burning Since: 2000

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Lollipop » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:07 pm

Savannah wrote:It was either Burners having more of the tickets (this way), or scalpers having more of the tickets the old way. I still think Burners will do a kinder, better job of things. Not because we are so high and mighty and perfect, but because a lot of us have been to the playa before, and are capable of feeling the pull to do the merciful thing. It's not in a scalper's nature, by definition.


Thank you Savannah, and well said. I agree that Burners will do a kinder, better job of things. I am bookmarking the TICKETS link and will use it if I need to. I am deep breathing and finding my happy place. Folks just REALLY want to go. :)
"You ARE The Good Witch Lollipop!"

http://istoppedtryingtopleaseyou.blogspot.com
User avatar
Lollipop
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:52 pm
Location: Northern California
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: Light and Illusion

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby vargaso » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:13 pm

OK OK, you know, I think I finally get it. The main goal of the lottery is to mitigate the presence of scalpers by allowing time between the end of the registration period and the start of the actual lottery in order to scrub the database for known scalper information. The price we pay for this most-likely "cleaner" population of ticket recipients is a week or so of uncertainty and the loss of the "first come first served" advantage. It's a compromise. It comes down to what you value more: convenience or integrity. OK, you know, seriously, I don't know why it took me this long to get it. It's a bit of social engineering, but hey, I'm a card-carrying liberal, I should be OK with that, ha. Alright, carry on then...
User avatar
vargaso
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 pm
Location: Lincoln, CA
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Suburbanoya

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby A Jester » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:32 pm

Savannah wrote:Thanks to last year's ticket sellout, and the measures that demand vs. supply have created, I actually don't think we will actually know whether the system is a success or a failure until the March sale has taken place, and the official ticket resale system has had a chance to work for a few months. It cannot be a failure until we have had a chance to see what Burners who bought more than they needed will actually do when they are given a chance to distribute fairly what they have hoarded. The onus is . . . on us.

It was either Burners having more of the tickets (this way), or scalpers having more of the tickets the old way. I still think Burners will do a kinder, better job of things. Not because we are so high and mighty and perfect, but because a lot of us have been to the playa before, and are capable of feeling the pull to do the merciful thing. It's not in a scalper's nature, by definition.


A very interesting point.
ZaphodBurner wrote:
The difference between buying a ticket from a scalper and prostituting yourself for one is, if you suck dick for a ticket and brag about it, burners will still respect you.
A Jester
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 1:28 pm

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby pink » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:32 pm

The problem that will happen if huge amounts of tix end up in the hands of even honorable hoarders, is planning will be difficult if you miss out on the lottery and the open sale and then can't be sure of a ticket until June.

If I have to wait, well, I don't actually have too much planning, food & water I get in Reno, and all I really need is some more reflective bubble-wrap for the van. I'm getting some stuff for the camp, but it's not like having to get international flights or anything. So I'll just figure I'm going no matter what happens. But I can see anyone that has mega planning to do dropping out if not ticketed by the end of the open sale.
I'm not a slut, I'm good time floozy!
pink
 
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:30 am
Location: sacramento
Burning Since: 2005
Camp Name: Retrofrolic

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:03 pm

Soooooooo, if they sort out the people that ordered only one ticket and convermed those sales now, that would take care of a percentage of their problem.

(And 100% of mine!!!) :twisted: 8)
"Don't buy ur Burn...........Build ur Burn!"

Fuck Im Good Just Ask Me
User avatar
FIGJAM
 
Posts: 7072
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 am
Location: apache junction az.

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby trilobyte » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:40 pm

The other part of the new process that I believe is crucial is the secure ticket exchange. There needs to be an easy way for people to do the right thing on the selling side, and for people to be able to get a "known good" ticket on the buying side. Craig's list is shifty, eBay is also cumbersome and costly for sellers (I think 9% plus insertion fees), as is StubHub (though I think they're 10%). STEP should help make the process easier for both sellers and buyers (and people who sign up for that program go through the same scrubbing process, so scalpers can't use it as a means to scoop up tickets).
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10628
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby TT120 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:00 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Soooooooo, if they sort out the people that ordered only one ticket and convermed those sales now, that would take care of a percentage of their problem.

(And 100% of mine!!!) :twisted: 8)

This.

:D :D :D


I'm resourceful. I'll get a ticket one way or another. I'm still making my plans and collecting stuff.
Life's a bitch, then you go to Burning Man - Unjonharley

W6BJD
User avatar
TT120
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:43 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA.
Burning Since: 2012
Camp Name: Orphans Too

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:10 pm

All of this is a moot point to me. I'm not even worried even an iota.

I will do.. whatever it takes. Whatever. To get a ticket.


Not worried.
Savannah wrote:It sounds freaky & wrong, so you need to do it.
User avatar
junglesmacks
 
Posts: 5809
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:54 pm
Location: Orlando, FL/Kailua, HI
Camp Name: Your mom's tent

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Savannah » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:11 pm

Junglesmacks is trying to up his price for personal appearances through scarcity!

It's a conspiracy.
*** 2013 Survival Guide ***

"I must've lost it when I was twerking at the trash fence." -- BBadger

"Snark away, ePlaya, you magnificent bastards." -- McStrangle
User avatar
Savannah
Moderator
 
Posts: 10524
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:33 pm
Burning Since: 2000

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Killbuck » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:26 pm

Ya just never know what will show up on a google search...

Image
http://sideshow2014.weebly.com Bringing Sideshow back to the playa, and part of the Embrace Crew, 2014.
User avatar
Killbuck
 
Posts: 2751
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:32 pm
Location: Nevada
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: Sideshow

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Killbuck » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:53 pm

.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://sideshow2014.weebly.com Bringing Sideshow back to the playa, and part of the Embrace Crew, 2014.
User avatar
Killbuck
 
Posts: 2751
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:32 pm
Location: Nevada
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: Sideshow

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Saguache » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Nipple wrote:P.S. - All you screwheads that bought more tickets than you needed. Fear is pretty potent, isn't it? Good job, coward. Do the right thing and sell the tickets through whatever system is derived. Keep your chicken fingers off of Craigslist. For all your cries of "HOW CAN WE PLAN? HOW WILL WE KNOW WE HAVE TICKETS?", you should realize that you're the problem in the equation.


Boo yeah Nipple! But seriously that's what happens in a scarcity economy. When a critical resource is limited people will tend to imagine new and interesting ways to hoard the resource, thereby compounding the resource limitation. The distribution outlet where you get the resource doesn't matter because more often than not there is no real way to verify identity. Thus any attempt to control distribution of the resource is doomed to fail. I'd suggest that BMORG is potentially ahead of this curve a little, the Jackrabbit mentioned a grey market for redistribution. That said I don't imagine scalpels or for that matter hoarders will pass up the opportunity to profit from a resale. But that's me, I could be wrong, and im obviously nieve because I didn't buy per-sale and I only signed up for one ticket.
-- Inspire or empower your neighbor, the rest is a waste of precious time
User avatar
Saguache
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:47 pm

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby alt12 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:50 pm

trilobyte wrote:You have nothing to worry about, Water Dog. I wish you guys luck!


Not according to yesterday's Jack Rabbit Speaks:

"Turns out, people are VERY EAGER to go to Burning Man this year. So much so, in fact, that they found creative ways to increase their odds of getting tickets in the Main Sale. As a result, there are a lot more tickets being requested than there are tickets available -- an inordinately large number, in fact, and far more than we projected even after last year's sold-out event. It seems that people a) likely got their friends, family and campmates to order tickets as well, and/or b) requested more tickets than they actually need.

So the unfortunate net result is that there will be a lot of people who aren't awarded tickets from the Main Sale ... "


Totally fucked is what I call this process. *hoping* to finagle a ticket in the after-market on ebay is not exactly what I had in mind this year. Chances are I'm not going anyway so its not a problem for me personally but it seems to me this has been a boondoggle of a clusterfuck train wreck from day one..... Just my 2 cents. I'm sure Trilobyte while chime-in on cue about how its going to be fine, BMORG is enlightened and they have it all figured out and anyone worrying about not getting a ticket is hysterical cry baby....

Oh and Will didn't include the obvious other possible reason they got so many ticket orders: scalpers. Its obvious to anyone with a brain and a basic conception of economics that the scalpers came out in droves for this easy money lottery.... I can only imagine that the after-market price for BM tickets will be highly inflated....
User avatar
alt12
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:58 pm
Location: Thailand
Burning Since: 2003

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby alt12 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:58 pm

Nipple wrote:
Do you think there's a much larger amount of people that want to go this year? It's about 50,000 people. Do you know how many tickets there are? It's about 50,000. People who don't get tickets are going to be the oddballs.

It's people overbuying tickets because of fear. These tickets all need to find a good home, it's just going to take those tickets a lot longer to get to where they're going. It's also going to put tickets in the hands of scalpers, which are hard to get them out.

P.S. - All you screwheads that bought more tickets than you needed. Fear is pretty potent, isn't it? Good job, coward. Do the right thing and sell the tickets through whatever system is derived. Keep your chicken fingers off of Craigslist. For all your cries of "HOW CAN WE PLAN? HOW WILL WE KNOW WE HAVE TICKETS?", you should realize that you're the problem in the equation.



I think its fairly obvious that there are a shit-ton of scalpers descending on the event due to the sellout last year. I think its a very naive fantasy to assume that the increase in orders is due purely to well-meaning but scared burners who had their aunties buy tickets for them. Professional scalpers make their living ripping off events like this. Unfortunately the lottery does nothing to stop this and likely exacerbated the problem quite frankly. So we're being told to basically just accept that we are likely going to have to buy these tickets on ebay and *hopefully* we'll be able to discern a genuine ticket from a well printed forgery (of which there are many every year).
User avatar
alt12
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:58 pm
Location: Thailand
Burning Since: 2003

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby tamarakay » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:09 pm

I hardly think that calling people names is going to encourage them to use the system. I think it's more likely to just piss them off and put them into a Fuck You attitude.
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

Mmmmmm I love the smell of Burning Man Token


http://www.dyewithdignity.com
User avatar
tamarakay
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:27 pm
Location: Texas
Burning Since: 2011
Camp Name: Dye with Dignity at BDC

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Saguache » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:43 pm

tamarakay wrote:I hardly think that calling people names is going to encourage them to use the system. I think it's more likely to just piss them off and put them into a Fuck You attitude.


Or a fuck you + 20% attitude. Oh snap, I like that one.
-- Inspire or empower your neighbor, the rest is a waste of precious time
User avatar
Saguache
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:47 pm

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby lemur » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:55 pm

i will dust this one off... and share it again:

Image
Don't link to anything here!
User avatar
lemur
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madagascar
Camp Name: Plug N Play Camp

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby pink » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:04 am

alt12 wrote:
Nipple wrote:
Do you think there's a much larger amount of people that want to go this year? It's about 50,000 people. Do you know how many tickets there are? It's about 50,000. People who don't get tickets are going to be the oddballs.

It's people overbuying tickets because of fear. These tickets all need to find a good home, it's just going to take those tickets a lot longer to get to where they're going. It's also going to put tickets in the hands of scalpers, which are hard to get them out.

P.S. - All you screwheads that bought more tickets than you needed. Fear is pretty potent, isn't it? Good job, coward. Do the right thing and sell the tickets through whatever system is derived. Keep your chicken fingers off of Craigslist. For all your cries of "HOW CAN WE PLAN? HOW WILL WE KNOW WE HAVE TICKETS?", you should realize that you're the problem in the equation.



I think its fairly obvious that there are a shit-ton of scalpers descending on the event due to the sellout last year. I think its a very naive fantasy to assume that the increase in orders is due purely to well-meaning but scared burners who had their aunties buy tickets for them. Professional scalpers make their living ripping off events like this. Unfortunately the lottery does nothing to stop this and likely exacerbated the problem quite frankly. So we're being told to basically just accept that we are likely going to have to buy these tickets on ebay and *hopefully* we'll be able to discern a genuine ticket from a well printed forgery (of which there are many every year).


Well, considering the amount of people that came on here when the lottery was announced and said they were getting everyone they knew to register for tickets (not to mention the people who have admitted doing it), there are quite a few hoarders out there. The questionaire even asked things like, "how many burns have you been to before?" " How many tickets did you buy last year?", the answers to which would give the BMORG an idea of the amount of hoarding going on.

I felt guilty answering I was buying two when I've always only bought one, even though the second one is for a friend and burner to whom I offered my ample credit to help get his butt back to the playa.
I'm not a slut, I'm good time floozy!
pink
 
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:30 am
Location: sacramento
Burning Since: 2005
Camp Name: Retrofrolic

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby Killbuck » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:34 am

.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
http://sideshow2014.weebly.com Bringing Sideshow back to the playa, and part of the Embrace Crew, 2014.
User avatar
Killbuck
 
Posts: 2751
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:32 pm
Location: Nevada
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: Sideshow

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby alt12 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:12 am

junglesmacks wrote:All of this is a moot point to me. I'm not even worried even an iota.

I will do.. whatever it takes. Whatever. To get a ticket.


Not worried.



Well that's lovely. I'm not worried one iota either. I can buy $1,000 ticket if I had to. I'm sure everyone with enough money can "do whatever it takes" unfortunately the same cannot be said for those with less funds at their disposal, those traveling great distances, those investing huge amounts of time/money/effort/energy in organizing camps and art projects that take a full year of work to pull off.

I am just intensely frustrated by this FUBAR process. The bmorg has inserted a tremendous amount of uncertainty into what used to be a tedious but extremely certain and charming day-long little ritual. I'd still rather sit at a computer with my cup of coffee and scream at the ticketing website for a couple of hours and know for a fact that i have a ticket then have this kick-the-can-down-the-road-to-whenever approach. First we have a two week-long lottery process. Then weeks later we have the lottery results. Now we're told that we likely won't get a ticket in the lottery when the official motto was "you have nothing to worry about." So now we will go through a third process with STEP (or more likely craigslist for many people) at some point further down the road (I dunno, April, May? June? after the tickets have been mailed? Will this include will-call? WHo the fuck knows) but are virtually guaranteed to pay more and guaranteed to not know if you even have a ticket to an event that you have been working on by this points for months.... Fun! Nothing like investing huge amounts of money/time/energy into a total question mark.... Its almost like the event itself has become a lottery.

Again, may I ask why on earth we are still clinging to a tiered pricing model when its abundantly obvious to everyone involve that has officially become a total farce with no correlation whatsoever between economic need and ticket price tier????


And can I just make the prediction now that STEP will face the exact same technical overwhelm that has happened to the tickets.burningman website every year? I mean the minute STEP is officially open for ticket exchange, why won't there be 10,000 people without tickets scrambling again to get a ticket and crashing the severs like they do every year?
User avatar
alt12
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:58 pm
Location: Thailand
Burning Since: 2003

Re: Burning Man 2012 Tickets FAQ

Postby CapnJoe » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:45 am

How in the world did a giant undertaking devolve into a mess like this? It isn't like this is the first year
that they have had experience doing it! It's almost like a bunch of beginners trying to cheap out the process instead
of spending a little more money on it. Put the name on the ticket!!!! If you are too secretive or uneasy to
show a ID, tough! You have to have a license to drive there and to prove you are not underage to drink
after you get there. That is if you are lucky enough to look under age.
User avatar
CapnJoe
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Sacramento CA

PreviousNext

Return to 2012 Tickets Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests