Additional Information

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Re: Additional Information

Postby tamarakay » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:11 pm

I think we have legitimate concerns and this is the appropriate place to air them. Without jerks taking shots at us.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Isotopia » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:55 pm

"Those who prepare are more fair than others." - Barbi Jesus Exxon Valdez Orwell.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby alt12 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:29 pm

Dear BMORG - WHen making such radical changes that effect everyone that attends this event in a very significant way, from planning to financing to commitments for the year, please have the consideration and courteousness to announce the FINAL FUCKING PLANS.

As it is now, everyone is left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst. Just announce it when you've got the details. This soft-announcement "we'll let you know the details at some point in the future maybe later" bullshit doesn't cut it. It creates undue distress for everyone involved and quite frankly is thoughtless.

Regards,
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Re: Additional Information

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:33 pm

Yup, just act like a hole and we'll fill you in later!
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Simon of the Playa » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:31 pm

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Re: Additional Information

Postby Eric » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:07 am

alt12 wrote:As it is now, everyone is left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst.


Careful how you toss that word around. I don't know word one more than you (even with that "moderator" tag under my name) but I'm totally calm. Getting tired of the hyperbole being churned up over this, and totally agree that it would have been nice for them to actually explain how it's going to work when they announced it (but seriously- people have been going how long? Suddenly they expect the Bmorg to be functional? Really?); however, "left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst"? Not even close.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby BeachBum » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:37 am

BMOrg and trilobyte -

Thank you for saying that "We ARE listening carefully to every proposed solution now or in the future. We discussed a lot of considered approaches to this, and will have full details soon. A lot of its validity depends on how it attends to the needs of a collaborative community." Thank you for the work you put in to make this event happen.

As stated before, and as many others have requested, please make it so that those that plan ahead, like the people contributing significant camps/art/art cars/interactivity/... to the event do, have a nearly certain chance of attending the event without going through scalpers or getting lucky in finding a ticket later on.

The best way of doing that is to match tickets to a name. It will substantially decrease the initial demand for tickets from everyone multiple ordering in a lottery and scalpers getting in the picture. Many of the scalping "ticket reseller" sites have the "pay now, we'll get you the tickets before the event" option. The delay between them having their credit cards charged and receiving the physical tickets later will not deter them, they just sell in advance of getting the tickets.

Please do non-transferable tickets matched to a name so those that plan contributions in advance can get tickets without major hassle.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby pink » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:51 am

Eric wrote:
alt12 wrote:As it is now, everyone is left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst.


Careful how you toss that word around. I don't know word one more than you (even with that "moderator" tag under my name) but I'm totally calm. Getting tired of the hyperbole being churned up over this, and totally agree that it would have been nice for them to actually explain how it's going to work when they announced it (but seriously- people have been going how long? Suddenly they expect the Bmorg to be functional? Really?); however, "left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst"? Not even close.


I'm not angsty either, but I am spending way too much time reading the train wreck threads. Of course, once we get the final explaination, I predict there will be more wailing and gnashing of teeth based on whatever they announce.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Rintho » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:36 am

[quote="BeachBum"]BMOrg and trilobyte -

Many of the scalping "ticket reseller" sites have the "pay now, we'll get you the tickets before the event" option. The delay between them having their credit cards charged and receiving the physical tickets later will not deter them, they just sell in advance of getting the tickets.

Please do non-transferable tickets matched to a name so those that plan contributions in advance can get tickets without major hassle.[/quote]

That was the one thought I had not yet seen expressed. For example when WETA was coming out with limited edition collectables for Lord of the Rings movies back in the day, buyers could sign on to (quickly filled) priority lists with the authorized vendors so they'd be assured of getting the chance to buy a googah at some future date when it finally became available. Then many got on ebay and resold the as yet vapor googah at a profit, maybe taking a deposit of $100, with balance payable on delivery. This was a hot market and people were willing to make these deals on trust. Months passed before the actual googah became available, and by that time many of the sellers disappeared with the deposits. Yeah, it's contrary to common sense, a fool and his money blah blah blah ... I'm just saying delayed fullfillment will likely do nothing to deter scalpers and may create further opportunities to fleece the unwary.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby tamarakay » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:46 am

Hey Rintho, it's been expressed in multiple threads by mutiple suggestees.
Really all we can do is wait it out, get the details, sign up and pray like hell we aren't in the 15% that most likely won't get tickets.
Let's see, i've bought numerous raffle tickets, powerball tickets (when the jackpot is over 75 million), received the occasional scratch off ticket in gift exchanges at work and i've "won" exactly, oh once. lol, i'm not the luckiest of the lucky.

HOWEVER, i'm pretty confident i'll eventually get two tickets to BM. Just not spending any more money on setting anything up until i'm confirmed.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby tamarakay » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:28 am

But really if the goal was to generate a panic to force early purchasing for a nice early bank of funds, this is bloody brilliant.
When the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a hippie.

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Re: Additional Information

Postby adonis808 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:31 am

jkisha wrote:
BMOrg wrote:
Dear BMOrg:

Please do not get so lost in an inward, philosophical quest for "fairness" that you make it equally unfair to everyone.


Yes, this was recognized by them in that note when they said "solving fairness is impossible in a limited space." There is no such thing as fair for some while not fair to others in the same situation.[/quote]

I don't know...fair is first come, first served if you ask me.[/quote]

Spot on jkisha.

I don't know where the idea that veterans are sobbing about not being assured tickets got started but it seems to have grabbed hold on this thread. How does being a well prepared Black Rock citizen ready to purchase tickets at the allotted time equate to crying in cherios about "I'm so special that the system should make sure I go"?

Hell, I look forward to the first purchase day and watching my place in the ticket line. It's the opening day of the Burning Man season. Excitement building because I know I will soon have a ticket in my hand that allows me into my Nirvana on Earth.

And I think therein lies the answer to why peeps are so upset with the lottery idea...

BMORG, YOU ARE MESSING WITH PEOPLE'S HIGH.

Don't put into question whether or not I can go to Burning Man this year if I want to!!!

If I'm a well prepared citizen of Black Rock City waiting patiently in line to get my fix, don't put that into jeopardy. Please!?!

And peeps are upset aren't they? Seems about 95% of the folks on this thread are mad as hell. How many new eplaya lurkers have signed up just to weigh in on this issue?

The system is not broken. Don't fix it.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:42 am

Eric wrote:
alt12 wrote:As it is now, everyone is left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst.


Careful how you toss that word around. I don't know word one more than you (even with that "moderator" tag under my name) but I'm totally calm. Getting tired of the hyperbole being churned up over this, and totally agree that it would have been nice for them to actually explain how it's going to work when they announced it (but seriously- people have been going how long? Suddenly they expect the Bmorg to be functional? Really?); however, "left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst"? Not even close.

Eric, please, be honest. If the LLC had announced complete details, people would be complaining about a process that didn't let everyone in the community weigh in with suggestions. In fact, many of the same people would be crying out. Now, I'm no big fan of the board members, but they are trapped by the expectations of over 50,000 people who feel that they have the right to look over their shoulders and monday morning quarterback every single thing they do.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Elderberry » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:47 am

I have to admit that the due to the overwhelming number of threads and posts all saying the same thing in different ways, that I haven't taken the time to read each and everyone; hell, it's prevented me from even being able to find the unrelated posts I want to read, but I don't recall reading about veterans sobbing about being assured tickets. The mention was made of giving veterans a discount on tickets, much like they do to artists and low-income attendees.
adonis808 wrote:
I don't know where the idea that veterans are sobbing about not being assured tickets got started but it seems to have grabbed hold on this thread.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Elderberry » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:49 am

OMG you posted the secret Masonic Handshake! :shock: :shock: :shock: Do you know the penalty for revealing Masonic secrets? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Additional Information

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:58 am

jkisha wrote:OMG you posted the secret Masonic Handshake! :shock: :shock: :shock: Do you know the penalty for revealing Masonic secrets? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Simon of the Playa wrote:

That's Simon we're talking about. He's immune to being punished by Masons, God, Whales, Tickets, Rust Belt Economics, and Escaped Tigers.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Spokender » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:26 pm

What is the benefit to a lottery?
Every time I try to envision a benefit it is also at the whim of chance with a chance of the opposite intention occurring. Bulk buying by camps and subsequent increase in ticket aftermarket seem like one likely outcome. More problems than benefits is what I keep coming to.

I feel tiers are outdated - any intended recipient was lost in the rush.
This arbitrary scarcity created the huge demand so no tiers = no more first day system demands. The simplest solution.
The inclusion of tiers in a lottery? Seems any intent of tiers gets so diluted there is no longer a benefit. Why hold to this tradition? A system to award low income tickets exists.
Other reasons for a lottery? Such a complicated system could create complicated, and unforeseen, problems. Math games with the masses where the factors are unknown.
Fair? Wow. I can only give you a KISS. The Org should be fair to themselves and Keep It Simple. How much effort and money are being spent on this administration for an unknown outcome and, as far as I can see, little benefit with more problems.

As groups circumvent the system with mass buying power (each individual entering for the max tickets to be resold to "losers" in the group first) there could be a huge increase in after-market sales. I'll be using this tactic with my camp. In fact I may propose my local Burner community makes a large consortium - bet the Org didn't count on that response. Extra tickets will be easily sold, and have a higher demand, in a system where uncertainty prevails. This demand may make scalping profitable even when the event is not sold out.

And if the little event does not sell out? So much time, money, and effort ...

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Re: Additional Information

Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:53 pm

I think you are completely over-reacting and this will turn into a non-event. Even I, the jaded old burner, believe that this system will work just fine. Patience Little Grasshopper.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby danibel » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:13 pm

alt12 wrote:Dear BMORG - WHen making such radical changes that effect everyone that attends this event in a very significant way, from planning to financing to commitments for the year, please have the consideration and courteousness to announce the FINAL FUCKING PLANS.

As it is now, everyone is left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst. Just announce it when you've got the details. This soft-announcement "we'll let you know the details at some point in the future maybe later" bullshit doesn't cut it. It creates undue distress for everyone involved and quite frankly is thoughtless.

Regards,
ALT


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Re: Additional Information

Postby trilobyte » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:55 pm

Spokender - you sound as if there won't be ticket purchase limits, or that after last year's sellout some camps weren't planning to stock up anyway. Listen to Doc, details and answers to frequently answered questions are coming soon.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby JayBobBoy » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:25 pm

I have to admit...the pre-announcement gave me some moments of angst, as previously described. I've already invested and saved for the event so the thought of a lottery to determine my ticket fate is unpleasant to say the least.

I find it odd that all over the world, large events are held with these same types of restrictions on space/attendance, etc, yet I've never heard of a lottery type process on such a large scale for ticketing. Where did this idea come form? Is there precedence for this?

If not, why reinvent the wheel. Look at the best practices available in the industry today and adopt what will work for you. Last years ticket day was soooo disappointing for me, I really hope the new plan works!

I have taken the Chill Pill and will await further details. No use fretting over something we have no control over. I'll be ready with my $$$ once the tickets go on sale. What else can I do?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:17 pm

Spokender wrote:What is the benefit to a lottery?


I'm thinking that it's got something to do with having more people wanting tickets than there is space available.
Think of the playa as a gigantic audiorium with camping.
So last year, when tickets sold out, as they would at a Neil DIamond concert or whatever, they just stopped selling tickets.
Why am I even explaining this?
So a lottery is supposed to be more fair than simply running out of tickets.

A really popular concert wouldn't settle for one show time, they'd have several shows in the same venue on several occasions. So why not have a spring burn, a summer burn and a fall burn?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby capjbadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:23 pm

Not even close UD...

The only thing the lottery "fixes" is the DDoS* attack we put the servers under on the first day(s) of ticket sales. It solves no other issues and even may make a few of them worse.

-Badger

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Re: Additional Information

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:24 pm

I seem to recall reading:
"This solution offers a two-fold benefit: it eliminates the annual ticket sales rush by spreading out registration over time (no more sitting in "line" all day, no more getting kicked out of the queue, no sudden unwieldy server demand!) -- and it begins to address the challenges of scarcity. We are also intent upon creating a balance of opportunity across a few months time. "
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Re: Additional Information

Postby capjbadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:32 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:I seem to recall reading:
"This solution offers a two-fold benefit: it eliminates the annual ticket sales rush by spreading out registration over time (no more sitting in "line" all day, no more getting kicked out of the queue, no sudden unwieldy server demand!) -- and it begins to address the challenges of scarcity. We are also intent upon creating a balance of opportunity across a few months time. "

And because you read it means it's true or un"spun"? :lol:

Yes, the lack of ticket rush (the DDoS attack) is true. Except that people will not understand the process and slam the servers anyway the first minute that the reg for the lottery opens. ;)

Scarcity is not fixed. The same number of people will still be trying to get the same number of tickets and are less than the number of people trying to get them.

And "Balance of Opportunity"? Fuzzy bunny feel good speech way of saying "We're not going to reward those that have their shit together and instead make it
'fair' and let any last minute slacker have an equal chance as the ones that were ready in time."

-Badger
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Re: Additional Information

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:49 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Now, I'm no big fan of the board members


Me neither! Especially all the ones complaining about the new lottery system. And the ones complaining about the ones complaining about the new lottery system. And the ones complaining about the ones complaining about the ones complaining about the ones the ones complaining aboutthe ones complaining about the ones complaining and the ones complaining about the complaining about the ones complaining about the ones complaining....


Wait.. which board are we talking about?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby mojitomato » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:30 am

Thanks for posting this. I'm going to refrain from freaking out until all details are revealed. Some random thoughts in the meantime, few of which will be really original:

A ticket lottery is used by the world's biggest events (summer Olympics, FIFA World Cup), so it is indeed a tried and tested method to distribute a large amount of tickets to an even larger crowd.

Unfortunately, those are spectator events. Even if some attendees beg to differ, they're just as interesting for the average person without the contributions of the ticket holders. Our little event is markedly different, and I think there even used to be some rule about spectators.

Speaking of rules - radical inclusion is out of the window, for obvious reasons (be it road capacity or political battles). Unless there is a radical change to bring supply back in line with demand, it can't happen. Given that, screw fairness. Think about how to set up ticket distribution so it favors those that actually contribute to the event. Note that I'm not talking about seniority, I believe that a virgin can contribute as much as a jaded veteran with double digit burns under their belt. I know that part is really difficult, if I knew a method that works and scales well to 50,000+ I would have posted it here. Set it up so all the costs are covered when they need to be. Funny enough, I think the old tiered first-come-first-served method actually did a halfway decent job at all that.

Now that we're on to the budget, from an economic point of view, this is brilliant. While the old tiered first-come-first-served method required great resolve to actually buy the ticket you could afford, something that a lot of first day purchasers probably didn't have, the new method will get everyone to spend the maximum that the event is worth to them. Which in my opinion is a lot, regardless of whether someone could be considered affluent or not. If that were combined with flexible allocations for every lottery (i.e. the lottery with the most entries gets the most tickets, as long it's an expensive one), this could drastically increase the the overall sum collected from ticket sales. Fascinating when you think about it, we'll see how much this crowd is willing and able to spend.

I really wouldn't mind that so much, even though it goes against a number of key principles. However, even worse, a lot of the key contributors aren't particularly well off (or well off any more, after they starting pouring all their money into a desert gathering). The worst are the scalpers. Fuck them. Unfortunately, I'm convinced a lottery increases their odds, while increasing uncertainly for everyone else. Smaller groups of minions over time are easier to organize than a huge army for a specific minute on a specific day.

So I'll close with my appeal: whatever the ticketing system we end up with, grab as many tickets as you can, for whatever price you can afford. Then run your own little scholarship program. Look for interesting people in your area, for artists and musicians/DJs and makers and doers and those with great ideas. Team up with the affluent ones so you can gift to the ones that barely can afford to go. Read the mailing lists, don't forget the international ones. Engage ticket seekers in a conversation and hear their story. I think you'll be able to tell the participant from the spectator (or the scalper minion).

See you on the playa.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby NessaZee » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:29 am

ok, time to add my two cents...


the most devastating thing to come out of this premature announcement seems to be the fact that most who invest copious amounts of time and money are halting their projects. "Theme camps are the interactive core of Burning Man." (Harley K. DuBois). Art Installations and mutant vehicles are key too. Bottom line, to keep the event the way they/'we' want it, these amazing peoples and their teams need reassurance of entry. At least, that's what I've gathered from the threads of discussion. To solve this, registration for art installations and theme camps could be moved forward to start in December, indicating the names of team leads and how many people in total they need for their project. The people who plan ahead would have no problem being ready(right?), and get their submissions in asap. When the submission is accepted that crew would be allocated their tickets. say non-transferrable w/names for team leads and managers and then a bundle(also non-transferrable) with the name of the project(for gifting/participation/etc...) Submissions would have to start being approved in january.
some people aren't ready to submit that early. what happens to them? it is so easy to go back over the data from previous years and see how many submissions there were (theme camps/art installations/mutant vehicles)....just put aside enough tickets to cover possible entries. if these tickets are gone by the time the burn comes great, no gate sales. if there are some left from the allocation, sell them at the gate. With the rest of the tickets, flip the tiers to sell the highest first and lowest last. or make them all the same price.


another thought on the lottery...
It is also possible that the ones in charge want to somewhat 'de-construct' the burn and BRC....This lottery may just achieve this. All the big projects will lose momentum because there is no guarantee that all hands will be on deck, and most likely, art installations, mutant vehicles and theme camps will be less costly and more simple. It will be interesting to see just what and who turns up on the playa this year...and then what comes from that...

Talk about a shake up!
LOL where's my popcorn?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby junglesmacks » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:47 am

NessaZee wrote:the most devastating thing to come out of this premature announcement seems to be the fact that most who invest copious amounts of time and money are halting their projects.


This is true, but you can't stop people from acting irrationally. Halting projects over a fear of getting a ticket I find ludicrous. There are plenty of tickets to go around at this point and as long as you prepare early, you will be fine.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:53 am

he's totally right.

it WAS so much better when it was a 35$ exciting sorority party glorifying man meat.
fuck you, it's magic


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Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

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