Additional Information

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Re: Additional Information

Postby tamarakay » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:58 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:he's totally right.

it WAS so much better when it was a 35$ exciting sorority party glorifying man meat.


well hell i missed that year.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby mistrcool » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:24 pm

This system is overdesigned and causes unecessary stress on Burners, masny of whom are already spending their creative energy on an event they won't even know they can get into!?!?

First, the event is not going to be sold out in the first month. Second teir tickets where still available after the rush last year. If there had just been twice as many tickets available at the first price, which could have been set half way between the two tiers it would have taken in the same amount of money, and there would have been no need to rush. Just by posting a continuous tally of how many tickets are left would be enough to allay fears that the tickets would run out at the given price right away. It is entirely fair for first come to be the ones to get tickets - everyone has the choice of when to buy tickets,and if you make the number left at each tier known there will be no rush up front. Just make enough tickets available at first tier pricing and adjust the price to raise the same amount of money. The difference would have been what, $20? and half would have paid more and half would have paid less. Entirely reasonable.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby mistrcool » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:26 pm

Also, Burneres are smart and are going to game the system making the situation worse as they order more tickets then needed under different identities.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:27 pm

Liz Estrada and Snowah Zark both have credit cards...
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:00 pm

NessaZee wrote:another thought on the lottery...
It is also possible that the ones in charge want to somewhat 'de-construct' the burn and BRC....This lottery may just achieve this. All the big projects will lose momentum because there is no guarantee that all hands will be on deck, and most likely, art installations, mutant vehicles and theme camps will be less costly and more simple. It will be interesting to see just what and who turns up on the playa this year...and then what comes from that...

Talk about a shake up!
LOL where's my popcorn?


One way to get around the 50K cap on the previous BLM Permit. Throw bleach down the carb of the BRC ticket sales, and whoever shows, it's up to you. Tho it shoots theme camps in the foot, it does get back to the less formal less constructed onus of the burn.

In a rather perverse and interesting way... I like it. Maybe if we get small enough again we can set up the drive by shooting gallery, and do a *real* exploding man...

A man wiser than I said "this running a theme camp is exhausting and expensive and makes my burn a bummer." Maybe he had a point there. What if... we did away with all pre-registered theme camps and villages? The burn certainly WOULD be less stress... and those of us who still wanted to pull off a theme camp would have to have our poop in a groop to make it happen. You want to village? You better get there early enough to get your space staked out. And oh yeah, once you get a ticket, you have 72 hours to apply for an Early Entry on a decreasing clock timescale. The sooner you put in for it, the sooner you can get in. You miss the window - oops. They run out of EA's for your ticket buyers group - oops.

What a progressively evil turn of events that would be... (sets right pinky next to lower lip...)

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Re: Additional Information

Postby Skulldream » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:19 pm

adonis808 wrote:
jkisha wrote:
BMOrg wrote:
Dear BMOrg:

Please do not get so lost in an inward, philosophical quest for "fairness" that you make it equally unfair to everyone.


Yes, this was recognized by them in that note when they said "solving fairness is impossible in a limited space." There is no such thing as fair for some while not fair to others in the same situation.


"I don't know...fair is first come, first served if you ask me.

Spot on jkisha."

I agree; first come, first served is fair. People spend the entire year planning for BM. Personally, a ticket lottery is the last thing I want on my mind while running camp meetings, planning fund raising events, filling out theme camp and mutant vehicle applications, and organizing a team for early arrival. It's not that I think the system would prevent me from getting a ticket, but I think it's absurd to submit my credit card information, pick the tiers I'd be willing to pay for, and wait x amount of time to find out how much my credit card will be charged for. I participated in the low-income ticket process my first year at BM and the anticipation, waiting months to see if my payment would be taken for my ticket, was almost too much to bear.

The system is not broken and fairness (in my opinion) is not really an issue. In my experience, "the playa provides," really is a true statement. I had quite a few friends who didn't have tickets when the event sold out last year, and they all found ways to make it out there. Many of them waited till ticket prices dropped again or had a friend come through at the last moment. Either way, it all worked out. I don't know anyone who got left behind at home. Heck, even I provided a non-scalped ticket for one of the early arrivers at my camp. Real burners take care of each other - we don't need a system to implement "equal unfairness," although a system to limit scalpers would be nice.

Another (kind of random) thing I would like to add, I wish BMorg would/could prevent touring companies from buying tickets to the event. Seeing a bus full of people from Reno show up just for the burn and park their un-mutated bus mid-playa made my heart sink this past year. BM shouldn't be treated like a tourist attraction.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:30 pm

Skulldream wrote:The system is not broken...

Well, it's not healthy. Last year's first day of sales underlines that. We don't know how broken it is on the inside. They may be patching leaks that are not apparent to us.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Skulldream » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:43 pm

True, even I got kicked out of line when the server froze and had to buy 2nd tier tickets (a customer service issue BMorg never actually attended to - expecting burners to accept it as yet another BM kerfuffle). It's an issue that's easily fixed by having servers that are prepared to handle that kind of traffic, which I think is a far simpler solution than creating this lottery system.

theCryptofishist wrote:
Skulldream wrote:The system is not broken...

Well, it's not healthy. Last year's first day of sales underlines that. We don't know how broken it is on the inside. They may be patching leaks that are not apparent to us.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Key Man » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:45 pm

I've read many opinions here (there have been lots of good ones) and given this a lot of thought.

It's tricky and there is no easy, do-no-harm solution. No matter which way this ticketing thing goes and how excellently it is planned, there will be some downside. The inescapable problem is that we are getting to where there's more demand than supply. I doubt BLM will up the numbers significantly and not so sure they should. So somebody's gonna be left out - no way around that.

I don't think a lottery is the way to go. I say make it first come first served. Your name is on the ticket and you can't resell it yourself. You can buy tickets for your friends, but their names must be given when the tickets are purchased and are printed right on the tickets, just like yours. If you can't go, you can return the ticket to BM with a restocking charge, and they will resell it. The resell list is also first come, first served.

There's no reselling or scalping because tickets are only be sold by BM, and the attendees name is on it. The system rewards radical self reliance because you gotta have your act together, make plans early, and have your money ready.

If you have a ticket but need to cancel, you can't just give/sell it to your friend. You have to deal with the BM return process (and cost, maybe). A hassle, but not a huge problem.


OK, so who's gonna be left out?

People who, for whatever reason, don't have the cash on day 1. That is sad, and I really sympathize with them but this is one of the consequences of not enough tickets. it's the new reality. I hope that people who are cash strapped but REALLY want to go can plan months ahead, and put the money aside.

People who are aren't watching the calendar, are in the wilderness that week, can't decide, etc. Spontaneous deciders. I've shared their excitement, pulling it all together at the last minute and being there, but it's new rules now. Forget last minute dreams of hitting the playa -- unless you can buy a wait list ticket, which may be unlikely. Sorry, but this is just the new Burning Man. Next year for sure.


Look ahead, years from now, when BM is better known - the pop cap is still 50k, but 75k want to go. What -- they're gonna build a freeway to Gerlach? And the locals will accept another 25,000 people passing through their towns? I don't think so! So the cap can't go up much, if at all, and if we have all these additional people that want to go, something's gotta give!

Lottery, no. If tickets are anonymous and transferrable, there WILL be a scalper market, maybe a huge one.

Remember, the here concern is not a repeat of 2011 selling out and the (small) ebay/Craigslist market that resulted. It wasn't really that big a problem. The concern is that if demand increases more and more, with same the system, a big scalper/reseller presence is assured!

I think we can all agree, we don't want people marking up tickets or speculating. The ONLY way to prevent that is with non transferrable tickets.

If they want to go with a lottery system, maybe that would fairer in some ways, though it wouldn't be my choice (radical self reliance again). But even with a lottery, the ticket should still be non-transferrable -- this is the most important thing.

No solution is perfect, but I think this would be best.

Oh, and don't make people wait months to find out whether or not they have a ticket. As has been said many times, people need lots of time to plan for this event -- especially folks outside the U.S., and people who contribute art projects, MV's, etc.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby capjbadger » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Key Man wrote:OK, so who's gonna be left out?

People who, for whatever reason, don't have the cash on day 1. That is sad, and I really sympathize with them but this is one of the consequences of people not planng ahead. it's the new reality. I hope that people who are cash strapped but REALLY want to go can plan months ahead, and put the money aside.

Fixed. :roll:
It's not like they didn't know tickets were going to go on sale. People that can't plan/budget ahead deserve no pity.

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Re: Additional Information

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:00 pm

Names on tickets = logistical nightmare. Read a few of the other threads for an explanation.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Key Man » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:27 pm

I've read lots of the other threads here, though certainly not all - wish you had been more specific about your disagreement. Logistical headache no doubt, but I don't think it's a nightmare, or impossible to manage. More complicated for the buyer and selling agency - yes. A hassle for people whose plans change - sure.

Even with "THIS TICKET GOOD FOR ADMITTANCE OF JOHN DOE ONLY - NOT TRANSFERABLE" will lunkheads show up at the gate with someone else's ticket, and have to be turned away? Yes. (The new policy this was year was very tough -- "If just one in your vehicle doesn't have a ticket, you'll all be turned away." I don't think it affected that many people, or was a nightmare.) Don't punish everyone, to make the ticket experience lunkhead proof.

If there's another way to prevent scalping and resale, I'm open to it. But until I hear of one I think this is the only way to go. In the end there will have to be compromises.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby vargaso » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:56 pm

A lottery system introduces uncertainty into the equation and drags the ticket buying process for each person out over weeks, perhaps months. Personally, I'd MUCH rather spend 4 hours in front of a computer on the opening day of ticket sales (or 5 minutes if I wait just one more day) and KNOW I have my tickets. It's not even close to an inconvenience on the user-end, and to suggest that one of the reasons for the lottery decision is to alleviate this supposed inconvenience is a bit disingenuous. It IS an inconvenience on the client-end, only because, for whatever reasons, the BMORG seems to believe that investing in solid infrastructure that can handle not more than 24 hours of heavy server traffic somehow goes against one of the 10 Principles. Eliminating the tiered pricing would go A LONG WAY towards reducing the opening day rush. It's my opinion that trying to level the playing field is only creating more complexity and angst into what should be a relatively simple process, one that has ALREADY BEEN SOLVED by the event industry. And the attempt to compare BM with other events as a way of justifying this decision is inadequate, because, as others have already stated, BM requires MUCH more planning and participation than any other event I'm aware of, so it makes it rather difficult to plunk 1000s of dollars into a project when you're not even sure you'll be allowed through the gates.

Now, I'm almost certain that it won't be as bad as it seems now, and that almost everyone will get to go once again. But the same result could be had, it seems to me, without resorting to an overly complex method that creates panic in almost anyone who reads about it.

Anyway, see ya on playa in 2012.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Galaxo Magic » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:48 am

There was not a ticket problem last year. You had 6 months to buy a ticket. If you couldn't figure it out in that time, then that was your problem, not BMORG's.
Now, it will be MY problem because I have to figure out how to get a ticket without having a credit card. How do I get in a lottery? I can't give them a credit card, I gave those up several years ago. :evil:

I guess the question I have is, can I use a debit card for the lottery and if so, how long will I be sitting around waiting to see if I get a ticket. How long will I have to have a ton of money sitting in the debit account just for tickets? Last year I could PayPal the money the first day. I do not care what level ticket I get. I usually go for 2nd or 3rd tier. But I would like to have the ticket taken care of as soon as possible.

Thank you for reading....

Galaxo

PS - I like this comment---"Another (kind of random) thing I would like to add, I wish BMorg would/could prevent touring companies from buying tickets to the event. Seeing a bus full of people from Reno show up just for the burn and park their un-mutated bus mid-playa made my heart sink this past year. BM shouldn't be treated like a tourist attraction."
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Re: Additional Information

Postby trilobyte » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:19 am

Galaxo, you may be able to get one of those pre-paid credit/debit cards (from your local check-cashing joint, among other places), just load it with the amount needed for the ticket(s) you want to book.

For the answers to your questions, you'll need to wait for the FAQ, which should be coming very soon.

I believe the tour buses from regional areas are actually not a part of the regular ticket allotment. The BMOrg has a sort of 'outreach' program where they invite groups from the local/regional community to come see what Burning Man is. As you can imagine, there aren't many tour bus operators in Fernley or Empire, so they're likely coming out of Reno. They load them with seniors or local tribe members and come out to the playa to show these people some of the big art and spectacle that is Burning Man. IMO, I don't think that's a bad idea - gives them a chance to see it for themselves, and maybe keeps a few people from crying 'not in my backyard' to their local politicians.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Galaxo Magic » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:26 am

Thank you, as long as they will take the Pre-Paid credit cards I planed on that.

The bus thing just seems weird but not as weird as all the folks with their camera phones taking pictures. Crikey. I haven't taken any pictures the last three years out there.
I do understand the bus people thing, just seems weird....of course, what ISN'T weird out there?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby actiongrl » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:22 pm

Correction here - we do NOT invite any tour groups out except for those from the area whose cooperation is needed to execute the event or have good neighbor relations. We do not not not sell bulk tickets to commercial tour groups. We DO give a tour to the Gerlach Seniors, for example, and since we're in their back yard, we don't make them buy a ticket for that....
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Re: Additional Information

Postby actiongrl » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:24 pm

I just don't want anyone to perceive that commercial operations are getting access to tickets. I heard about some tour buses last year that did seem to be tourists not cooperators. I'm not sure where they came from or what the story is there, but it's not centrally supported to let people do that except on a political or neighborly basis.

There are limits on the number of tickets any one person can buy at all prices that help to quash commercial package vendors a bit...
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:27 pm

on a side note, will Fandango be available for Time-share / Lease again?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby jkisha » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:43 pm

CapSmashy wrote:Comparing the amount of work that goes into the art built and the scale of the theme camps built for the big burn vs a 3 or 4 day regional is very short sighted on the part of BMORG.

Agree.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Eric » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:47 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:on a side note, will Fandango be available for Time-share / Lease again?


God, I hope so. Luxury is a pop-out RV with 24 hour air-conditioning. Next year I want the personal chef, just to check out the upper level of VIP.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby pink » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:50 pm

[quote="Skulldream"]True, even I got kicked out of line when the server froze and had to buy 2nd tier tickets (a customer service issue BMorg never actually attended to - expecting burners to accept it as yet another BM kerfuffle). It's an issue that's easily fixed by having servers that are prepared to handle that kind of traffic, which I think is a far simpler solution than creating this lottery system.

[quote="theCryptofishist"][quote="Skulldream"]The system is not broken...[/quote]
Well, it's not healthy. Last year's first day of sales underlines that. We don't know how broken it is on the inside. They may be patching leaks that are not apparent to us.[/quote][/quote]

I emailed the BORG detailing what happened to me after I got kicked out of line (and I never even got a counter number to take a screen shot of when I logged in) and was refunded the difference between my second tier and first tier I should have been able to get. and since I got the idea after someone else here posted here, I was not the only one to be refunded.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:00 pm

Skulldream wrote:True, even I got kicked out of line when the server froze and had to buy 2nd tier tickets (a customer service issue BMorg never actually attended to - expecting burners to accept it as yet another BM kerfuffle). It's an issue that's easily fixed by having servers that are prepared to handle that kind of traffic, which I think is a far simpler solution than creating this lottery system.



Skulldream wrote:The system is not broken...

theCryptofishist wrote:Well, it's not healthy. Last year's first day of sales underlines that. We don't know how broken it is on the inside. They may be patching leaks that are not apparent to us.

pink wrote:I emailed the BORG detailing what happened to me after I got kicked out of line (and I never even got a counter number to take a screen shot of when I logged in) and was refunded the difference between my second tier and first tier I should have been able to get. and since I got the idea after someone else here posted here, I was not the only one to be refunded.

True, there were several to a couple dozen people who said that that worked for them. But that's still a patch, not a fully effective system. And if that happens again, they are likely to get a bunch of false requests because the word is out that it worked once. (See 6pm Sunday gate, if you don't believe me.)
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Re: Additional Information

Postby alt12 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:01 pm

Eric wrote:
alt12 wrote:As it is now, everyone is left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst.


Careful how you toss that word around. I don't know word one more than you (even with that "moderator" tag under my name) but I'm totally calm. Getting tired of the hyperbole being churned up over this, and totally agree that it would have been nice for them to actually explain how it's going to work when they announced it (but seriously- people have been going how long? Suddenly they expect the Bmorg to be functional? Really?); however, "left in a state of anxiety, worry and angst"? Not even close.


tremendous thanks for the important and insightful semantic feedback. Please change word "everyone" to "people."
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Re: Additional Information

Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:14 pm

Eric wrote:
Roberto Dobbisano wrote:on a side note, will Fandango be available for Time-share / Lease again?


God, I hope so. Luxury is a pop-out RV with 24 hour air-conditioning. Next year I want the personal chef, just to check out the upper level of VIP.


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Re: Additional Information

Postby sandgoddess » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:47 pm

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:
NessaZee wrote:In a rather perverse and interesting way... I like it. Maybe if we get small enough again we can set up the drive by shooting gallery, and do a *real* exploding man...

A man wiser than I said "this running a theme camp is exhausting and expensive and makes my burn a bummer." Maybe he had a point there. What if... we did away with all pre-registered theme camps and villages? The burn certainly WOULD be less stress... and those of us who still wanted to pull off a theme camp would have to have our poop in a groop to make it happen. You want to village? You better get there early enough to get your space staked out. And oh yeah, once you get a ticket, you have 72 hours to apply for an Early Entry on a decreasing clock timescale. The sooner you put in for it, the sooner you can get in. You miss the window - oops. They run out of EA's for your ticket buyers group - oops.

What a progressively evil turn of events that would be... (sets right pinky next to lower lip...)

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I second that oops. OoOops. Wait. Did someone say Fandango? or Dangfango?
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Re: Additional Information

Postby MyDearFriend » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:20 am

Well, not gonna hope for the return of the drive-by shooting gallery but I do hope to see another drive-by-Friday-afternoon-announcement about the ticket lottery, sheesh.
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Re: Additional Information

Postby graidawg » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:27 am

meh. I'm pretty sure things will be ok. as long as iget another job before then so i can get the stuff i want to bring, but it will be interesting to see what happens of course theres always nowhere if it does go tits up.
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