Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

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Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Flame » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:23 am

How to fix the ticket situation, a proposal:

Step 1: Theme camp registration. The organized people within the burner community all submit applications for their camps every year already. This change would make it so, as part of this process, they would now be responsible for tickets in their camps. They would submit key personell and number of campers they are planning for in their camp. They would then manage these tickets, buying them for the camp and selling them to their campers. This would probably account for about 30-40% of tickets. It would also address the band, dj, and performer issues at large camps. And most camps already have systems for this kind of stuff, with managing buying supplies, etc.

Step 2: Art registration. This could really be done simultaneously with step 1, but the point is that artists would register their installations, and, like theme camps, also indicate key personell and ticket need, and also manage this as part of their project. This would likely account for 5-10% of ticket sales and would assure tix for artists.

Step 3: General sales. This can be done on a first come-first serve, a lottery, whatever. People could either buy this way, or choose to join a theme camp and get tickets through the camp.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby lemur » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:25 am

i already posted this same xact thing
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby oneeyeddick » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:27 am

The Romans and the Greeks actually did it first.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby dustyballs » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:43 am

I am philosophically opposed to theme camps that charge others for shelter, meals and entertainment getting an advantage in the ticket process. I believe that they violate the "Radical Self Reliance" that Burning Man espouses. That being said, I am also greatly concerned with the uncertainty of a lottery process as it is presented in the JRS. I agree that the "Workers" of theme camps, art installations, and art cars should have some assurance that they will not be frustrated as a Bride left at the alter. The same with those of us who travel rather large distances to attend. If a lottery is the method as presented in the JRS is flawed. The JRS says that a person must indicate the price level they desire, so there will be a lottery round at that level and if it is sold out without being selected, Oh Well? I submit that you should be asked to submit the Highest ticket price you will accept, then you participate in every lottery level until that price is exceeded. Finally, if you procrastinate in the purchase process as it has been and then do not get a ticket, it is your own individual fault. This happens with events all the time.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Holdz » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:47 am

This is the best way any festival - its not perfect but it gets rid of the scalpers:

http://www.glastonburyfestivals.co.uk/i ... on/tickets
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Flame » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:07 am

Every major event needs a method to make sure that the dedicated people who plan things and who spend their time and energy to make it the best for everyone get in and get priority buying tickets. A normal event, these are "sponsors" who are putting together a large area. Well, for burning man, these people are the artists, the theme camps, the art cars, etc. These are the people that should have priority. With tix never selling out, this never needed to be done. It does need to be done now.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Flame » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:10 am

Holdz, I looked at the glastonbury stuff. It's essentially the same system I am advocating. Theme camps, artists, art cars, etc. register with Burning Man every year. This is usually after ticket sales. I am saying make registration first, the same as in Glastonbury.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby portaplaya » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:49 pm

Tickets under any system (including lottery) will be sold out before the theme camp registration deadline arrives (that's in June).

When BM currently only expects theme camps to need three months to prepare, it's a big jump to switch to eight month's advance notice. That's just asking for most camps to fail to meet their commitments.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:51 pm

That will mean something. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.
Probably mixed. Maybe rearranging things so that it's not big theme camps on 2 and 10 spokes plus esplanade are the major centers of action. A whole year of little gems in the suburbs could be amazing!
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby hyperspacetraveler » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:44 pm

Being a new member who joined this forum when all tickets for 2011 were sold out, i was just another procrastinating fool , complaining to a bunch of "dedicated" well read jack rabbit or whatever members who offered no help but discouragement. Now i understand how overwhelming and tiring it gets to reply to the same thing over and over again, maybe your experiencing the same level of annoyance now with the same issue, but maybe offering some suggestions and solutions would have been more , i dont know, burner like. Seeing as amazing you all are, how helpful on the white sand and just the possibilities of things going so wrong(but didnt) with so much insanity and un-control, just some how i believe you have the power in you to work this out......... Well as a undedicated , unread jack rabbit eplaya member, hopefully you can stoop to my lowness and just hear my proposal, as i guarantee it would end scalping.
Unless the lotto structure is some how part of the theme like, luck or chance, i see the lottery system as big of failure as the "just dont buy them" rhetoric of 2011: to which got me into fights and deleted posts with ugly senior members: here is my solution family :D

-First off BURNING MAN must not sell tickets to third party websites who jack up prices by hundreds(pretty obvious if they don't condone scalping themselves)
- Every ticket sold will somehow bear the persons name who bought it. There will be a limit of two tickets per name and upon entry the ranger checks the name on the ticket to a piece of I.D
- Next those that procrastinated or didnt get a ticket will be allowed to be put on a waiting list for a 15 dollar NON REFUNDABLE FEE
- This next part is the most important and i think will be the most disputed. - People who can not attend can get their tickets refunded (minus the 15 dollar fee)
- The fee will cover the administration costs of 1) putting people into the waiting list 2) refunding tickets 3) reissuing new tickets to waiting list with new names...... now obviously there needs to be discussion about how that name will appear on the ticket but i see the only way for a free market economy to stop raising the prices of scarce tickets is to CONTROL THE MARKET...... Come on america being a commy will be ok for everyone here i promise...... MY suggestion above shifts the free market, to monopoly by burning man!!!!!!! I mean burning man can even turn a profit here by charging the highest or even higher tier for " reissued tickets" even if lower tier tickets were refunded......
A probable concern that comes to mind are 1) people could forge the names? but wasnt this and still is an issue with tickets? solution: maybe make the security feature have the name on it, and at the gate the barcode is scanned to make sure the name is legit..... whats your input ????
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby The CO » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:56 pm

hyperspacetraveler wrote:-First off BURNING MAN must not sell tickets to third party websites who jack up prices by hundreds(pretty obvious if they don't condone scalping themselves)


They don't. (sell tickets to 3rd party web sites OR condone scalping.) Check your facts.

hyperspacetraveler wrote:- Every ticket sold will somehow bear the persons name who bought it. There will be a limit of two tickets per name and upon entry the ranger checks the name on the ticket to a piece of I.D


Rangers? If you don't know the difference between Rangers & PG&E & what they each do, it becomes very hard to take you seriously...

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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Skulldream » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:22 pm

I think it would be smarter to make people register their tickets with a name & photo when they're purchased. This guarantees that there's only one ticket/person and that any ticket transfers have to go through official channels. This system would help ward off scalpers. Many of the world's largest festivals (ie Glastonbury) already function this way. It keeps things fair and isn't half as ridiculous as the current proposal. Really? You want me to submit my credit info, wait several months, and then discover what mystery ticket price I received? Sounds crazy to me.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby BBadger » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:26 pm

I don't get it. One year of tickets selling out, a mere 3 weeks before the event started, and people think scalpers are a huge deal. You know what? Fuck photo IDs and registered-name tickets. Get your tickets early, even if by lottery, and be done with it.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby sattelite5812 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:56 pm

IMHO, the fact that so many scalpers popped up when the event sold out just 5 weeks from the start (some tickets going for as much as $10,000. Wish I were joking), pretty much guarantees that they'll be all over this one. They now know that the event will sell out, and even people who are dedicated enough to get their shit together early might not be able to get tickets; people who just may be dedicated enough to pay extra for a ticket, if the alternative is not going.

I'm in agreement that making tickets non-transferable (except through the Org, who could charge a "restocking" fee) would eliminate this problem.

My 2 cents
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby trilobyte » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:04 am

I think people underestimate the amount of resources that would be needed to process ticket returns, especially in cases where physical tickets are being returned. It's also got to lead to some additional accounting issues, you'd need to keep the entire year's ticket sales on cash reserve if you offered a policy whereby the purchaser could return tickets at any point between the purchase and the start of the event.

I'm curious to hear what the people who've been studying the problem and working on a solution for the last several months have to say. Hang tight, more info should be coming along real soon.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Skulldream » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:17 am

Understandable, but I think it may be worth it to to establish such a system to benefit the 50k+ attendees they will have next year. I also agree with the posters who suggest a moderate "restocking" fee, but think that tickets should be transferable only, not completely refundable (simplifies it a little bit).

trilobyte wrote:I think people underestimate the amount of resources that would be needed to process ticket returns, especially in cases where physical tickets are being returned. It's also got to lead to some additional accounting issues, you'd need to keep the entire year's ticket sales on cash reserve if you offered a policy whereby the purchaser could return tickets at any point between the purchase and the start of the event.

I'm curious to hear what the people who've been studying the problem and working on a solution for the last several months have to say. Hang tight, more info should be coming along real soon.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby sattelite5812 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:26 am

Yes, I meant that tickets would only be transferable through the Org, not that they would be refundable.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby hyperspacetraveler » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:03 am

Sorry for my noobish lack of distinguishing a ranger from the PG&E ill take note next time .I would hope though as a human your able to take me seriously in regards to a issue totally irelevant to the difference. Chill out man my effort and input to a possible solution may not be to your liking , but try suggesting something that will engage , not cut down, as me being to only one burn is irrelevant. So discouraging. And if burning man doesnt sell to third party websites then they still sold tickets to someone in that company as websites had hundreds and i mean hundreds of tickets, i know of 20 people who got theirs that way because they were scared of fake tickets and would rather pay that hundred extra to make sure.

Other issues raised are that the borg will have to keep the entire 50,000 tickets worth of cash. Obviously the borg will only do accounts payable out , when they have received payments in. And of course this would be electronic transfers..... The event will sell out,so borgs books will work out this way, borg can just send the cheques out after the waiting list has paid. 15 dollars for every ticket changed and 15 for every ticket returned is 30 dollars per transfer. How could that not be profitable? As far as just registering tickets , how does that stop a ring of scalpers who will each buy a ticket or two to sell at higher prices, i mean if burning man doesnt sell tickets to third parties , they got them somehow, and lots of them. The only way to stop this is to have your name on the ticket somehow, thats why i suggest a barcode that has your name on it, so that way the borg wont have to bother with getting back the old tickets, they would just print a new one , and print the barcode/name tag of the new person and attach it, and it would be scanned and confirmed.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby portaplaya » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:01 am

Interesting proposal.

There are a few things you need to clarify and a few small issues you need to overcome.

First, can you use real money numbers for the transactions? I'm confused by your $30 profit, because your scenario only seems to have $15. Perhaps you would walk a single ticket through it's lifetime from printer to person A to person B to the Gate.

Second, are you aware that Burning Man has to have all of the tickets printed at the same time? The security features (embossing, hologram, barcodes, price level) all need to be produced in one run. It can't really be done affordably via print on demand. What is your recommendation for overcoming this that would leave the "name on ticket" secure and trustworthy.

Third, are you aware that scalpers have to tie-up $3,000,000 in funds for eight months in order to control 10,000 tickets? In 2011, with the sell out coming mid-summer, a few tried this as short term investments, but it seemed to me that very few people that I talked to at the event had bought their tickets through a scalper. After all, there were no more than a hundred or so available on E-bay at any one time.

If we go to your system, everyone can start buying tickets on opening day. By what mechanism to we ensure that everyone gets a fair chance at a ticket that day? What if all 50,000 sell out on that day? Seems that "be prepared" is not a fair method if everyone attempts to buy on the same day and it sells out. Your scenario does not seem to examine this idea; it is only a foil against scalping. I'm not convinced that scalping is a huge problem.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:51 am

hyperspacetraveler wrote:Sorry for my noobish lack of distinguishing a ranger from the PG&E ill take note next time .I would hope though as a human your able to take me seriously in regards to a issue totally irelevant to the difference. Chill out man my effort and input to a possible solution may not be to your liking , but try suggesting something that will engage , not cut down, as me being to only one burn is irrelevant. So discouraging. And if burning man doesnt sell to third party websites then they still sold tickets to someone in that company as websites had hundreds and i mean hundreds of tickets, i know of 20 people who got theirs that way because they were scared of fake tickets and would rather pay that hundred extra to make sure.

Other issues raised are that the borg will have to keep the entire 50,000 tickets worth of cash. Obviously the borg will only do accounts payable out , when they have received payments in. And of course this would be electronic transfers..... The event will sell out,so borgs books will work out this way, borg can just send the cheques out after the waiting list has paid. 15 dollars for every ticket changed and 15 for every ticket returned is 30 dollars per transfer. How could that not be profitable? As far as just registering tickets , how does that stop a ring of scalpers who will each buy a ticket or two to sell at higher prices, i mean if burning man doesnt sell tickets to third parties , they got them somehow, and lots of them. The only way to stop this is to have your name on the ticket somehow, thats why i suggest a barcode that has your name on it, so that way the borg wont have to bother with getting back the old tickets, they would just print a new one , and print the barcode/name tag of the new person and attach it, and it would be scanned and confirmed.



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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby bradtem » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:08 am

sattelite5812 wrote:IMHO, the fact that so many scalpers popped up when the event sold out just 5 weeks from the start (some tickets going for as much as $10,000. Wish I were joking), pretty much guarantees that they'll be all over this one. They now know that the event will sell out, and even people who are dedicated enough to get their shit together early might not be able to get tickets; people who just may be dedicated enough to pay extra for a ticket, if the alternative is not going.

I'm in agreement that making tickets non-transferable (except through the Org, who could charge a "restocking" fee) would eliminate this problem.

My 2 cents


I do not believe any tickets actually sold for anywhere near $10,000. You will see that on eBay auctions all the time, but the prices aren't real. A good thing to check is if the buyer has a real eBay reputation or is a new account.

Several things cause this:

a) People uncertain of what the price is on something create a fresh account, and bid super high. If they win at a price they like, they pay. If not (especially when two people do this on the same auction) they just discard the account. Screws the seller.

b) In some cases (Burning Man Tickets, Michael Jackson memorial tickets) people who don't like the fact that people are auctioning tickets screw with the auctions by creating fresh accounts and putting in fake bids.

In reality, tickets did sell for about $800 to $1000 after the sell-out, then slowly drifted down to $500 to $600. I am sure that a few people driven by panic paid more, but these were the real market prices. You have to examine auctions that had multiple bidders with real accounts, not fresh ones.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby oneeyeddick » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:03 am

Some of those $10,000 tickets DID sell,(after the sellout was announced on MTV) but they came with a whole camping package, not just a $10,000 ticket.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Rice » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:49 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:Some of those $10,000 tickets DID sell,(after the sellout was announced on MTV) but they came with a whole camping package, not just a $10,000 ticket.


So, that is not a $10,000 ticket, but $10,000 "Burning Man Experience" that included a ticket (Camping and chef included).

Was that the dude that $50K ?? or are we talking about a different setup?

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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby bradtem » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:16 pm

I would be interested in reports of anybody paying thousands for a ticket for real. I saw many eBay auctions close for high amounts but every time I looked at one, the buyer had no ebay reputation, it was a freshly created account, and I believe the buyers who bid at those prices just reneged and went to another auction for closer to the market price, which was around $800 to $1000 right after the sell-out, and around $500 closer to the event. I remain curious to hear about any reports of ticket ask prices from the guys selling out of trailers. While ask prices are not selling prices (if anybody has a selling price that would be cool) in a trailer arrangement you have a far less efficient market, and I could imagine somebody accepting a high ask price because they feel they have no other choice at that time.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby unjonharley » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:26 pm

I'll call bullshit on this 10 000 dollar thing..

Show me the stats..
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby mdmf007 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:55 pm

Theres packages that sell out there - I know this for a fact...
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby ygmir » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:57 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Theres packages that sell out there - I know this for a fact...


yup, I've seen the RV deliveries........
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby Just_Joe » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:22 pm

BBadger wrote:I don't get it. One year of tickets selling out, a mere 3 weeks before the event started, and people think scalpers are a huge deal. You know what? Fuck photo IDs and registered-name tickets. Get your tickets early, even if by lottery, and be done with it.

You have _no_idea_ as to the power that the "reseller/broker/scalper" community is going to bring to bear on this years ticket sales.
The sellout last year triggered it. It doesn't matter that it happened on the 3rd day or 3 weeks from the event.
What mattered is that it happened, and it will happen again this year in spades.
Reselling is a business with big money behind it. There are a number of brokers that have at their disposal, and WILL "tie up" 500 tickets worth of money for a 50-100% return. It's a no brainer. Add in the ebay amateurs with half a dozen friends and family members "working" for them and it's going to be ugly.
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Re: Proposal to Fix Ticket Situation

Postby unjonharley » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:31 pm

ygmir wrote:
mdmf007 wrote:Theres packages that sell out there - I know this for a fact...


yup, I've seen the RV deliveries........


And the shaded glassed limos.. And the bullshit pouring out of them
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