Conclave - tickets and policy

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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:04 am

OregonRed wrote:Too late. You've belittled my art and my contribution.



Respectfully, not your art and contribution.. only the sense of entitlement.


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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby curiousgnate » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:58 am

I for one fully enjoy the conclaves that perform in the great circle. My first burn, my jaw never left the playa for the whole performance. It is a spectacular sight to see, while i don't care so much about the fireworks, or the man burning, the thing that keeps me going up to the front is the fire performers. Without them i too would be somewhere being obnoxious with a megaphone. megaphones are fun mkay! The only solution I could see to being able to sell your ticket if you get accepted, is to have bought one earlier using someone elses credit card, so that your name is nowhere on record. I am sure there a lot of people who do this, and as to the ethics of it, well i'm not going to go there. I just hope that next year, people take into account what happened this year, and there is less of a mess. (doubt it but you never know)
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby The CO » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:39 am

Well well well.... The Fire Conclave Council has made a little change-up in ticketing. In my opinion, it is for the better. Thoughts from shins/helmsmen out there?

(BTW Trilo/mods, I think this thread was originally placed in the wrong section-It seems to be about event policy, not board policy)
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby trilobyte » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:07 pm

Not so much a mistake so much as a temporal misallocation. Many moons ago, when it was first posted and all the conversations happened, there wasn't a tickets discussion board. I'll give this a nudge on over to the right place.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby pandora422 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:36 pm

High five for junglesmacks - did you ever wonder what burning man would be like without any comp/reduced "staff" tickets? If everyones participation was based on honestly wanting to contribute without the expectation of reimbursement or compensation? Kinda sounds like a ....... gift????

Just curious all mighty fire conclave - Who's the judge that says that your participation in the "Great Circle" in more valuable than my form or junglesmacks form of participation (camps/art cars/volunteering/whatever it might be)?
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:40 pm

Crimson Rose, I believe.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby pandora422 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:00 pm

I'd trade "the Great Circle" in for a burn with less self entitlement in a heartbeat. But hey, I am only one participant who’s contribution is not worthy of a comp ticket (nor expects one) and my name sure isn’t Crimson Rose.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby lemur » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:53 pm

i cant speak to the fire conclave..

but for others ive seen out there who do get some kind of ticket cheaper/free-r/whateveier.. considering the amount of work needed to 'get' one.... mind you.. not exactly always fun work.. it'd be hard to say that it was 'free' or even 'cheaper' ...

more like minimum wage for workin full time.... in the form of.. uhh.. a ticket
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby The CO » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:38 pm

Actually, the fire conclave council is made up of Crimson and 2 others at present.

Pandora, sorry you don't feel some peoples art is up to snuff.

But, by way of an example, our conclave puts in an average of 170 hours (per person) of rehearsal time as a group prior to the burn. So pardon me if I feel a bit of go fuck yerself. As was stated earlier in this thread...

OregonRed wrote:We are treated no differently than any of the other BMORG sponsored art project...

...Maybe you don't understand why the BMORG would be willing to offer reduced price/gift tickets to fire conclaves at Burning Man but, whether or not you understand it, they do.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby pinemom » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:41 am

Anyone thinking that the fire conclaves, that are lucky enough to make the extremely strict cut as of the last 2 yrs, arnt deserving of the cut rate performers ticket.
Lemme break it down for ya...
Fire troupe member pre-playa calendar and PERSONAL expenses.
-Rehearsals 1-3 times a week,MANDATORY! Minimum of 3 hours of busting ass at each! (Gas to get there and possibly time o$$f from work on important occasions)
-New fire tools every yr.(no stringy tools)30.00-250.00 depending on what tools are required
-Fuel for the inner circle- I imagine we go through around 5-8 gallons per inner circle at 9.88 per gallon
-Costumes- 10.00- 150.00'ish
-New Duevy- 8.00 a yard x's apprx.8 safeties ( and we use about 1.5-2 yrds per safety sheet)
-Fuel dump- (we've had ours for a couple yrs, so Ill degrade it to around 25.00 per yr on pro-rate)
NOT INCLUDNG any basic Camping needs or transportation as EVERYONE has that to pay!

And thats just what in my head before the end of my first cup of coffee.....

Oh ya and a occasional pass the hat for broke ass co-member to pull some of this off....

What Im trying to share is a little more understanding of what were NOT getting a break on, that actually brings our price to that of a min. 3rd tier ticket AND THEN SOME!!!!!!!and how!

Oh ya, ANDDDDDDD We have to drop everything we are doing for showing up hours early to the Man. So we can sit there forever and wait for your slow asses to get there...(just kidding) But yes, we have to be over at the man so fricken early OMG! Oh and yea, PURE SOBRIETY as well! Ya no getting your buzz on till the fricken man drops..not even a glass of friggin Champagne!

So please do understand they give the performers who make the strict cut, a price cut on the ticket so that we can afford all the extra on top that makes us within the perimeters of a normal priced ticket.

Hardest part....You all know that you get your ticket at least within another month or so(lottery or open sales in March)...we wont know till around then end of May/June, if our conclave is even been selected from all our video submissions.

This yr most all fire performers are attempting to get into the lottery, if they can afford too. (ya, its that scary for us not winning a spot in front of the man!)
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby lemur » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:59 am

"If someone already likes your [art], how hard you worked doesn't matter. If they don't, telling them how hard you worked is not going to change their mind."-ctein
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby pinemom » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:19 am

Lemur.... Are you following me around here?
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby lemur » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:40 am

what? no. why would you say such a thing?

theres not much ..here.. to follow anyone one around in anyways, not a very big forum..

I go to "UNREAD POSTS" which is where i go to see .. unread posts.. so i can read stuff and post stuff and participate in the community

hopefully youre joking... if not.... sorry to say that uhh.. it is a bit presumptuous to think i'd have any reason to 'follow' you, or anyone else for that matter..
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby pinemom » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:46 am

was just wondering as you post right after me within 10-15 mins.or less. but always before someone else.

Just kinda weird...

Are you a BM Board member? Eplaya Moderator or sompin?
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby lemur » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:26 am

oh uhm.. i never noticed that.. i just like the eplaya.. odd scheduling in my life and easy access to the internet allows me to be very active here.

theres no ill will, joke intent, trolling intent.. nothing nefarious, no points trying to be made.. no intimidation intended, no messages trying to be sent surreptitiously related to my posting in threads youve posted on..

rest easily!


i am not a BM Board member (i wish), I am not an eplaya moderator and my posting and interactivity on eplaya is not under any official capacity (well.. i dont think it is at least)

i am a Manager for one of the Community Service Department.. departments.. nothing too lofty, and nothing at all related to anything on eplaya..(perhaps working in this capacity should make me more cautious about how my posts may be interpreted..)

however I may come off and appear on eplaya/tribe/online ...i assure you,! i have and had no ill intent in my postings.. sorry if ive dismayed you in any way..
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby trilobyte » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:28 am

He's an ePlayan, same as everyone else. Using features like looking at unread posts or a newsreader capable of reading ATOM feeds, it's fairly easy for a person to follow new posts (either site-wide or thread-specific).
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:42 am

I think one source of frustration about the fire conclave is that for most participants it doesn't add anything to the value of the man burn, in fact, it subtracts from it. I'd guess that only the first few rows and people on art cars actually see any of it. But there's still this waiting, waiting, waiting for it to start, then end, for everyone else. (75% maybe.) The only way I can think of to change that would be to build a platform for the performers, but I think that gets complicated.
I don't go to the big burns, because the waiting (and the crowds) just put me in a horrible mood. I've never been close enough to see more than a tiny bit of the spinning.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby pinemom » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:49 am

Cool Lemur.....Just checkin to see if I got on your watch list...heheheheheheee
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby The CO » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:09 am

theCryptofishist wrote:frustration about the fire conclave is that for most participants it doesn't add anything to the value of the man burn, in fact, it subtracts from it.


How? How does more fire take away from the experience of burning something?
Waiting for the man to burn, not being able to see past the people in front of you.... All these things would happen even if there was no conclave.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:32 am

Maybe the man would burn sooner, maybe it wouldn't. But it's not an illogical assumption to think it might.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby trilobyte » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:44 am

I think there will always be divided opinion on the issue - after all, no other performers are given assistance or comped tickets. And neither are sound camps or mutant vehicles, which for many are an iconic part of the experience. Many many burners put in hundreds (or even thousands) of hours on projects or honing their skills as performers, it's part and parcel of being a participant. I think some folks resent the sense of entitlement that some folks have expressed, but I don't think the entitled represent the majority of conclave members (just as that DJ who thinks he should be given special treatment doesn't represent all DJ's and musicians).

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the great circle thing either. I've known a few people performing in it, but I've never been a big enough fan of fire to try and push up close, and the whole thing just feels very spectator-y. At the last couple burns, I didn't even go to the man burn, just spent some quality time with good friends either at camp or out in deep playa - those burn nights were as meaningful for me as any I've ever had. But I do respect the conclave and what they do, and understand that making that all happen does require year-round effort from a lot of people that goes above and beyond simply 'playing with fire.' If Crimson and the others who lead that team have a small number of tickets they're able to gift to some of their team members, good for them.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby Mojojita » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:49 am

I think it is true that most people don't get to see the spinning at all. The man is elevated so he can be seen rows back from the perimeter of the circle but the fire spinners can only be seen by the first few rows. We don't attempt to get close to the big burns any more either because you really can't see through the crush of people.

It would be really wonderful if the conclaves could do more shows through the week - or have a parade or something. Although the sheer spectacle of all those fire artists together at once is truly amazing, I wish I could see more of it.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby vargaso » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:54 am

Interesting, I never knew the fire conclave got comped tickets. As Trilo mentioned, plenty of other artistic endeavors out there require time and money to execute, yet are not comped tickets. Probably the long history of the conclave merits it? Crimson Rose has been there since the beginning, so there's that. I don't think I've ever actually seen them perform at the Man burn, but whatever, it's not surprising that the original participants get a little special treatment.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby The CO » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:01 pm

trilobyte wrote:I think there will always be divided opinion on the issue - after all, no other performers are given assistance or comped tickets


Art Grants? Honorarium tickets? Change performer to artist, or vice versa, and bear in mind that fire spinning is performance art.
DJs & sound camps don't get tickets, yes. They also don't have to go through a submission process as involved as conclaves or mutant vehicles.

Mojo- Many of the conclaves do in fact put on shows other than the man burning. Check the WWW. Parades are tough-hard to carry fuel safely.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby trilobyte » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:06 pm

Honorariums and art grants are not available to performances or performance art. Check this page, and scroll to the bottom. Very top of the list of what does not get funded is activities and performances.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby The CO » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:24 pm

Trilo- Ya, that's why I brought up the semantic point about performance art. It is semantics-but if a sculptor that has received an art grant with ticket spends 200 hours prepping his art for the playa, or a spinner in a conclave spends 200 hours making new tools and practicing for the playa, then who can tell me which is or is not "Art", visual, performance or otherwise? Effing English language...

*Added in edit* -The performance in question is the burning of the man, something which has a bit to do with the event over all. If it helps for anyone, think of the conclave as an opening act that the Borg hires (via discounted tickets) to play before the headliner. You know, that big dude we burn every year.

Vargaso (and others)-

Individual fire conclaves that are accepted to perform have the option to get discounted tickets, not freebies.

Some conclaves that have been around consistently for several years may get 1-2 gift tickets, out of the max of 50 people in any given conclave.

But all conclaves must go through the same process of applying/auditioning every year, whether they are brand new or have been in the great circle since the get-go.

And, in hopes of reducing the 'radical self-entitlement'* whine, another quote from this very same thread"

I wrote:OregonRed & I make clear each year with the Oregon Fire Conclave that if you are joining for the sole purpose of getting a discount ticket, you're doing it wrong. We start rehearsals in January, we accept all levels of spinners, and we work everyones ass off. And, we make it clear that all the work is about the fire, not the ticket.

The discounted ticket is a gift. Not a right. Not a privilege. Not something one is entitled to get. I personally am grateful for it, but I never expect it. It's a bonus.


*Mind you, the OP of this thread had a bad case of that going on....
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby curiousgnate » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:32 pm

they don't get comp tickets, they get tickets at a discounted rate! they deserve it for all of the hard work! It is like giving an art project some money to help fund it. the slight reduction in price helps a little bit but as the poster a few posts ago said. their expenses are big. I love seeing that many people performing with fire all at once. It is fucking cool. if you don't, fine, don't watch but don't somehow diminish what they are doing and say that it isn't worth them getting a discounted ticket. what do you care if they get a discounted ticket. you want one then do something that enables you to get one.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby lemur » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:45 pm

re: honoraria art grants.. there is this (dunno the numbrs for 2011.. probably similar)

"In 2010, there were over 275 registered art projects on the open playa – an increase from 2009 by a couple of dozen. Of these, 36 were honoraria projects" http://afterburn.burningman.com/10/art/artofbrc.html

"2010 was a very good year for art and the Art Department. Over 240 art projects preregistered by July 1st, and over 50 registered on playa."
http://afterburn.burningman.com/10/art/process.html


lets just round it all out and say roughly 10% of Registered art projects get LLC funding and support

0% of theme camps get LLC funding, as far as i am aware..

only those mutant vehicles which are honoraria grantees get funding.. if we assume a HEALTHY amount of 10 mutant vehicles (of the 35-40 grantees) that means about 1.5% of vehicles that are invited get some sort of assistance.. (there were around 700 invites in recent years)

needless to say... and wholly unrelated to whether conclave should receive staff/performerpriced tickets.. the vast majority of those creating, doing, performing, and participating, at burning man are doing it without any reward or special compensation.

and that is probably how it should be.


(it should be noted that burning man LLC is essentially contracting out these fire performers as part of something the LLC wants to happen as part of the festivities... the same cant be said for the mutant vehicles, theme camps, or likely all art projects sans The Temple..)
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby BBadger » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:52 pm

The CO wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:frustration about the fire conclave is that for most participants it doesn't add anything to the value of the man burn, in fact, it subtracts from it.


How? How does more fire take away from the experience of burning something?
Waiting for the man to burn, not being able to see past the people in front of you.... All these things would happen even if there was no conclave.


It reminds me of my county fair, where they have the free rodeo we get to watch. The climax performance is the bull riding at the end, but to get to that point you have to sit and watch stuff like these girls on horses racing around barrels and other stuff that kind of just "goes along for the ride." It's not to say there aren't people who enjoy watching those parts of the rodeo, or that they're done poorly, but many people--especially people who have already watched the rodeo before--would rather just cut to the chase.

I think it's the same way with the fire conclave performance before the Man burns. I thought it was cool when I first saw it. Hell, I still think it's cool. This last year, however, standing much further back, I had almost forgotten how much more interesting it would actually be, and actually was, up close. From that distance, the fire looked like a giant blur, and that was from a MV. Still, even up close like the year before, much of the dancing looks the same. Waves of fire moving around, spinning batons, pairs of people interacting with their fire. Interesting and cool initially, but the shear number of people doing about the same type of thing raises the "background noise" level--which the brain starts to filter out.

I'm not trying to say this performance art does not take a great deal of work, and is interesting, but it does seem to drag on at times, even for those of us who could even see it up close. Maybe it's the shear number of fire-dancers, or the randomness of the "choreography"--but the fire dancing seem less like a performance and more like just a large dance that would go on whether or not there was an audience or not. It's disengaging like that. Perhaps the number of dancers needs to be scaled back, to concentrate interest, or maybe spread out into different spokes for more "surface area"? The layout of the city changed over time, maybe the great circle needs a change-up as well.

Despite the above faults, I still think something would be lost if we didn't have the fire conclave performance before the man burns. Maybe the format just needs a change up to be more engaging to the audience.
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Re: Conclave - tickets and policy

Postby unjonharley » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:53 pm

]
]
]
Know what would really burn my ass?? :arrow:

Being in the middle of a three foot high grass fire :roll:
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