Riding lawn mower for MV?

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Postby oneeyeddick » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:02 am

You are right, I spent about $200 on wood for the frame/exoskeleton and paint, although a lot of the wood was recycled from pallets.

The hippy armor is recycled fiberglass water tanks.
The steel frame on top I literally found laying in the road(drop gate off of someones trailor.)

The flame effects I don't include in the price because they can he used elsewhere, and are not reliant upon the MV.
Total price for that was about $1200 altogether.

I understand the pride involved when you build it yourself, but there is no way you can justify electric-vs-IC for cost effectiviness and reliability yet....maybe in another 10 years, but not quite yet.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:06 am

From what I've seen of golf carts, I wouldn't touch electric.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:30 pm

Gotta love a good debate.
Personally I've always chosen gas, but I think the "best" way depends on what your skills are, what you already have lying around or run across cheap, and what you want to do.

If you're into solar stuff and electric-powered stuff, go with it.
I think that unless you're going to recharge using solar power, you defeat the whole purpose by running a gas engine (generator) anyway to make the power.

The problem is if you want to build a larger vehicle and/or run a lot of lighting for night operation, you need a hell of a lot of solar cells and batteries. It's a lot more difficult to charge and carry enough batteries to equal the power potential of ten gallons of gasoline.

So basically I'd say the bigger and more lit up the vehicle is, the bigger the advantage of gas. The smaller the rig, the more it evens out and depends on your preference/skills/available material.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:30 pm

Gotta love a good debate.
Personally I've always chosen gas, but I think the "best" way depends on what your skills are, what you already have lying around or run across cheap, and what you want to do.

If you're into solar stuff and electric-powered stuff, go with it.
I think that unless you're going to recharge using solar power, you defeat the whole purpose by running a gas engine (generator) anyway to make the power.

The problem is if you want to build a larger vehicle and/or run a lot of lighting for night operation, you need a hell of a lot of solar cells and batteries. It's a lot more difficult to charge and carry enough batteries to equal the power potential of ten gallons of gasoline.

So basically I'd say the bigger and more lit up the vehicle is, the bigger the advantage of gas. The smaller the rig, the more it evens out and depends on your preference/skills/available material.
"Whaoomph! Whaomph! Burbbleburbblepattpattpattpatt... WHAAAAAaaoooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........!!!"
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Postby oneeyeddick » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:43 pm

You nailed it, that's exactly the point I am trying to make, you can only go so big and do so much with electrics at this point in time.
Now if you find a couple of extra electric forklifts with OK batteries for real cheap....
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Postby oneeyeddick » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:51 pm

And BTW CaptnGDMMT, here is a nice shot of our MVs together.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPaXbOuW08k&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:33 pm

Hey cool! Thanks for posting that.
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Postby ¡Niers! » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:28 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Gotta love a good debate.
Personally I've always chosen gas, but I think the "best" way depends on what your skills are, what you already have lying around or run across cheap, and what you want to do.

If you're into solar stuff and electric-powered stuff, go with it.
I think that unless you're going to recharge using solar power, you defeat the whole purpose by running a gas engine (generator) anyway to make the power.

The problem is if you want to build a larger vehicle and/or run a lot of lighting for night operation, you need a hell of a lot of solar cells and batteries. It's a lot more difficult to charge and carry enough batteries to equal the power potential of ten gallons of gasoline.

So basically I'd say the bigger and more lit up the vehicle is, the bigger the advantage of gas. The smaller the rig, the more it evens out and depends on your preference/skills/available material.


I do agree with you. I too love a good debate.

I also agree that the efficiency and price factor looks less appealing when you start building a big rig. Solar and batteries aren't cheap at all. Although anytime you are using the power of the sun or wind.....efficiency goes way up. Period.
Sadly, I'm not rich and can't afford thousands of watts of solar panels or turbines. Even if I had that kinda solar set up, I don't think I'd bring it to BM. There are just too many dumbasses that can't figure out how to stake their pop-up shade structures. In '08 I think I saw at least 2 of those things flying through camps and hitting people's cars and such.

Honestly, I don't mind gas powered MV's. I'm glad people create whatever they want no matter how fucked up and crazy the idea.
That's what makes my burn. Well, that and the fact that so many people pull together their efforts and create and provide things for not just themselves. 51 weeks of my life every year I'm surrounded by selfish ignorant fucks. It's nice to get a break, even if for only 1 week.

Me? I just like messing with electricity. I also like not using fossil fuels if I don't have to. I know I sound like a hippy, but I'm actually not. But I really don't even care.

I just really like making things and being inspired by what other people make.
BTW, my all time favorite MV is The Golden Mean. Jon Sarriugarte is my freaking hero!
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Postby capjbadger » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:14 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:You are right, I spent about $200 on wood for the frame/exoskeleton and paint, although a lot of the wood was recycled from pallets.

The hippy armor is recycled fiberglass water tanks.
The steel frame on top I literally found laying in the road(drop gate off of someones trailor.)

The flame effects I don't include in the price because they can he used elsewhere, and are not reliant upon the MV.
Total price for that was about $1200 altogether.

I understand the pride involved when you build it yourself, but there is no way you can justify electric-vs-IC for cost effectiviness and reliability yet....maybe in another 10 years, but not quite yet.

Major props for the heavy (re)use of found materials. :)
How much did the base vehicle cost though? Granted it's a little hard to compare the two vehicles due to size and mutanted vehicle vs. built from scratch.
10 years? Hmm... I don't know. The carbon nanotube batteries are looking really good... ;)
What I'm really waiting for is for the electric cars that are coming off the lines to drive down the price of Lithium. :twisted:

As far as reliability, I still can't agree. This isn't some beat-to-hell golfcart ready to fall apart or some mutated beater car with 2000 different parts to break to make the whole thing come to a halt. Plus if some bit did burn out on my MV, it's sure a lot easier to get to rather than digging around in an engine. ;)

Thankfully I'll be able to reuse most of the "drivetrain" for the next MV (Motor, Motor controller, batteries, Contactor switches, etc) so I'm not starting from scratch cost-wise. :)

Captain Goddammit wrote:Gotta love a good debate.
Personally I've always chosen gas, but I think the "best" way depends on what your skills are, what you already have lying around or run across cheap, and what you want to do.

If you're into solar stuff and electric-powered stuff, go with it.
I think that unless you're going to recharge using solar power, you defeat the whole purpose by running a gas engine (generator) anyway to make the power.

The problem is if you want to build a larger vehicle and/or run a lot of lighting for night operation, you need a hell of a lot of solar cells and batteries. It's a lot more difficult to charge and carry enough batteries to equal the power potential of ten gallons of gasoline.

So basically I'd say the bigger and more lit up the vehicle is, the bigger the advantage of gas. The smaller the rig, the more it evens out and depends on your preference/skills/available material.

I love a good debate too. :D

Yeah, much more knowledgeable on electric stuff than I am on IC's.
(to the point I look at "IC" and still first think "Intergrated Circuit" :D )

I have to disagree though on the point of running a gas genny to make the power (if you went that route). The efficiency is still far better. You lose a LOT of power in a IC to heat and friction.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... -efficient
How much energy is lost getting electricity from the power plant to your PHEV or BEV? Plenty. In the U.S. right now, about 70 percent of the energy used to make electricity — more than four million gigawatt-hours — comes from fossil fuels. About 70 percent of that amount is wasted generating the power and transmitting it to your door. Additional energy is lost when charging batteries and running electric motors. Overall, electric cars use fossil fuel at 20 to 25 percent efficiency, but dismal as that sounds, it beats an internal-combustion car, which typically operates at about 15 percent efficiency. An HEV uses around 0.48-0.74 kilowatt-hours per mile, while PHEVs in electric mode and BEVs use 0.18-0.46 kWh per mile. By contrast, a conventional car getting 25 MPG uses 1.35 kWh/mile. To put the issue in more familiar terms, a PHEV or BEV offers fuel economy equivalent to as much as 188 miles per gallon.

You are right in that scaled a bit larger, the price would skyrocket due to needing much more charging capacity and lithium batteries (LiFePO4 ideally). Old school lead acid would be massive at that point. I'm already running 400lbs of batteries as it is (and that's only 4 batteries. ;). Gasoline still wins on engery density sadly. (For now... :twisted: )

I'm looking into designing some cheap and easy to make wind turbines (VAWT style) to mount to the ship to boost the incoming power since I went away from the solar panel mounted to the ship design.

-Badger
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Postby TomServo » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:11 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:You nailed it, that's exactly the point I am trying to make, you can only go so big and do so much with electrics at this point in time.
Now if you find a couple of extra electric forklifts with OK batteries for real cheap....


An electric forklift will move quite a bit of weight, for quite a while. Just be careful when charging, as charging these batteries emits explosive gasses. Keep in mind, the battery will probably need a forklift to remove and install the battery. Plus, You will need a charger, that plugs into a seperate generator.

If youre gonna try and use as much of the forklift as possible....which would be kinda cool, as they're rear steer....Make sure it has Pneumatic Tires.
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Postby TomServo » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:12 pm

Oh...and the chargers arent all accepting of 110 outlets.
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Postby capjbadger » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:20 pm

Guess my ship is part forklift since it's rear-steer too. ;)

-Badger
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Postby TomServo » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:05 pm

capjbadger wrote:Guess my ship is part forklift since it's rear-steer too. ;)

-Badger


Perhaps! Battery or IC? Forklift batteries can weigh uo to a ton. They Do make tight turns!
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Postby capjbadger » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:51 pm

Tight turns? Dachs Gabe can spin on it's own axis. ;)

Hmm... not a ton, but it's a 1/5 of the way there. :D

-Badger
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Postby TomServo » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:12 am

capjbadger wrote:Tight turns? Dachs Gabe can spin on it's own axis. ;)

Hmm... not a ton, but it's a 1/5 of the way there. :D

-Badger


my bad..and I wont edit the original... UP to a ton
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Postby falk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:19 pm

capjbadger wrote:Pain in the ass how exactly? Recharged with solar.

-Badger
Captain of the Dachs Gabe (48v, Etek motor)


You were able to make this work? I did the math once, and didn't like the result. I have a 1-ton vehicle I want to power. Math says I need 8000 watts. From there, I figured out how many batteries I needed, their weight, the cost of the controller, motor, charger, and so on. Then I computed how many square feet of solar panels I would need to charge it, and *their* cost and so forth.

Came to 10x the cost of a gasoline motor from Harbor Freight. The cost of the electric motor alone was more than the cost of the gasoline motor of the same power.

I would love an electric vehicle, but I just couldn't make it work.

Could you tell us how you put yours together?
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:10 pm

falk wrote:
capjbadger wrote:Pain in the ass how exactly? Recharged with solar.

-Badger
Captain of the Dachs Gabe (48v, Etek motor)


You were able to make this work? I did the math once, and didn't like the result. I have a 1-ton vehicle I want to power. Math says I need 8000 watts. From there, I figured out how many batteries I needed, their weight, the cost of the controller, motor, charger, and so on. Then I computed how many square feet of solar panels I would need to charge it, and *their* cost and so forth.

Came to 10x the cost of a gasoline motor from Harbor Freight. The cost of the electric motor alone was more than the cost of the gasoline motor of the same power.

I would love an electric vehicle, but I just couldn't make it work.

Could you tell us how you put yours together?

I'm not sure if there was some magical formula i stumbled on. ;)
It's built on one of those 4'x8' foldable trailers from Harbor Freight . The batteries are pretty massive. They're about the size of car batteries, but weight 100lbs each. 12v 135AH.
http://www.npstelecom.com/pdfs/Dyn_UPS/UPS_12-475.pdf
(got them for a steal)

30to1 gear reduction so it tops out at about 6MPH if I were to floor it. I think I got away with not much charging for two reasons:
1. The batteries were already full when I got there
2. The MV moves quite easily. I can push it pretty easily.

Plus when it comes down to it, I didn't get to drive all that much. I'm a pretty busy guy out there with setup and being a luminary (route leader) for lamplighters.

Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74371348@N ... 243185396/
(Ignore the solar panels and wooden rudder/drivetrain. That's older versions of the design over the years)

Oh, with the batteries in it and people, I think I just hit a ton.

-Badger
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Postby oneeyeddick » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:24 pm

I've driven in circles around that artcar before! (literally, i do that to a lot of them out there)

Just an update, my 79 toyota truck that I have been talking about is no longer running, threw a rod, fucked up the ring on one cylinder, blah and ad nasuem.

Now I gotta either spend $200-250 to rebuild it or $3-400 to replace the motor with a replacement.

It wasn't going to be an artcar this year anyhow, I'm taking this year off and doing something else and then NEXT year on to something bigger to roll around on.
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:39 pm

You sure about that? That would be rather difficult since it was parked over by the LL lounge a lot. Drive BY it maybe...
Not that driving around it would be hard. I was driving it at about a walking pace since the rains fucked up the roads so bad early in the week and the ship doesn't have suspension on the nose and drive wheels.

Ah shit OED. That sucks. :(

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