Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Headmaster Janus » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:28 pm

BeachBum wrote:Here are a few quotes from some of the Pay & Play camps' advertisement sites:
- "Access to The Best Art Cars on The Playa", and they provide "Unique Camp Activities" (eventbright/Stiglitz)
- "The Dreamers Camp will be organised in synergy with the following camps:
Overkill, RobotHeart, PlayaSkool and Zoo." (same company, but perhaps a different sub-camp)
- In the "What Will We Be Doing" paragraph: "Wandering around Burning Man participating and making the most of the other camps’ activities." (same company, different page, bold added by me)
- And, everyone gets space in a RVs driven up from Vegas or SF, and perhaps early arrival.


Thanks for posting this. This is the first I've seen of this and I'm not familiar with Stiglitz SLC, but it appears they are out of England.






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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby 48_love » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:33 pm

Does BLM have a take on the service industries being developed on and around the event? Didn't BLM have the issue with on-Playa vending? Are P&P providers BMOrg subcontractors?

In that light, do P&Pers take on different liabilities when they are on-Playa service providers? For instance, if a paid for shelter fails and destroys property, is that on the Org, the P&P vendor or is THAT when Radical Self Reliance comes into play? Haha!

Maybe we need to find a way that P&Pers threaten the event from a BLM permitting perspective. That type of thing seems to get the BMOrg's creative juices flowing.

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Trishntek » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:34 pm

Headmaster Janus wrote:
Question: Are we hosting a Plug & Play camp?


From what you just described, it sounds like BaalMart/MalMart is a theme camp that charges dues and hires no one to do the dirty work. But it also sounds much different than your description of PlayaSkool on page 1.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CornMan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:44 pm

I don't see how the plug & play concept will be too much of a success unless they can get their clients in on an early pass or something. The time spent in entrance and exodus might prove to be unpopular with their clients and will likely affect the number of return customers. Maybe they can fly them in and out to avoid them having to wait in long traffic lines with the non plug & play campers.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Bob » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:54 pm

Still wondering how seven people get 200 tickets.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:12 pm

Bob wrote:Still wondering how seven people get 200 tickets.


yeah! me too!

SHOW US THE TAPES!
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby moonrise » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:13 pm

Pitchforks and Torches! Arrrrrg!
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby gyre » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Zeke Chaparral wrote:I don't see how the plug & play concept will be too much of a success unless they can get their clients in on an early pass or something. The time spent in entrance and exodus might prove to be unpopular with their clients and will likely affect the number of return customers. Maybe they can fly them in and out to avoid them having to wait in long traffic lines with the non plug & play campers.

If they are not involved, how early do you think they arrive?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby CornMan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:25 pm

gyre wrote:
Zeke Chaparral wrote:I don't see how the plug & play concept will be too much of a success unless they can get their clients in on an early pass or something. The time spent in entrance and exodus might prove to be unpopular with their clients and will likely affect the number of return customers. Maybe they can fly them in and out to avoid them having to wait in long traffic lines with the non plug & play campers.

If they are not involved, how early do you think they arrive?


They can get an early beer on if they show up Saturday afternoon.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby BBadger » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:44 pm

lemur wrote:the more encouragement these operations get the more the everyone elses efforts become devalued (see: valued for profit) because not everyone will be on the same page in terms of offering themselves and their efforts for the same reason.. one group shows up for monetary gain and the rest show up because of honest interest...


Monetary gain vs. honest interest? Interesting terms there. What makes something "honest" interest? What if the monetary gain facilitates honest interest? What if all the money is recycled back into the camp, such that there is no net profit?

at some point the ones not showing up for monetary gain wont feel like others share their values and either stop making work, or stop coming...


Or simply not care? Why does someone else's monetary gain lead you to do less, or change your ways? Because you're not sharing that monetary benefit too? Because your gift to others is conditional?

or even worse, theyll start doing the 'if i cant beat em, i'll join em' and soon enough theyll be looking toward the event for monetary gain as well.


Since when does a true believer say "if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em"? Do you know people like that? Do you think the majority of other camps will adopt such measures?

Really, what causes a change in such thinking? I would liken it to religious conversions. It comes from one of two things: a lack of religion or values to start with, making this "other way" more attractive, or outside pressure forcing that change (e.g. forced conversions). How would these things be applied to a PnP camp affecting other camps?

If the former, are the "easily mislead sheep" of the playa simply prone to adopting these pay-for-play ways? If so, doesn't that mean that the current BM populace is already corrupt and willing to forsake its values? These PnP camps are then simply the manifestation of that corruption. We're outraged at the symptom, not the cause. But is this the case here?

If the latter, what is the "pressure" causing this change? Are camps suddenly in competition with each other and have to resort to attracting funding sources for their camps? What would be the source of this competition? Is it the need for placed camp status? Is it competition for tickets? What is it?

When I look at PnP camps, I don't give a damn about their existence. I don't see them as a threat to the playa, because I believe that they are simply a minor mutation, and like most mutations, they die off quickly of their own self-caused malignancy. I don't expect any "tourists" to return to the playa after they've seen it and paid out the nose for the privilege. If PnP camps are more than that--say a cancer--how will that cancer spread? And why?

whether or not you can still do your own thing and forget, or pretend, like these operations dont exist in 2012, or maybe even 2013... further encouragement of these operations into the future will, i think possibly, if unchecked and without limits.. will just encourage more and more of these operations...


That very well may be, but I'm more concerned about just a lack of tickets rather than the effect of these camps on BM culture. If somebody visits via a PnP camp and doesn't leave a changed person, they're probably not going to return. But just because that person chose to pay extra to go to a PnP camp rather than via some other means doesn't change the fact that the same person has visited the playa.

but just as its impossible, and totally foolish, to assume to be able to look at anyone in a bad neighbood and know if it is a criminal...and that you know you couldnt pick the criminals out in a lineup if you hadnt see them doing a crime...... youd still realize the effect of crime on the neighborhood.. negative.


But that's a poor comparison. These are not criminals. They're not ruining the neighborhood by stealing things from you or breaking things. This is more like a Scientologist family moving into your religious neighborhood. They keep to themselves, but don't get involved with your church. You've even heard nasty things about their profiteering "church"--but you'd still give them the time of day without question, because you really don't have any direct beef with them other than how they arrived and how they view their place in the world.

You have a choice on how to address such people. You could, for instance, see this as an opportunity to draw such people to your faith. Show them how to live well, to live right. That assumes, however, that you think these people can be saved. It's easier to assume the opposite, and to just wish the problem would go away. There is no helping heathens, after all. Just damnation.

Well are you ready to convert some heathens? Or throw in the towel?

This is not a call to accept PnP camps as a welcome presence, but rather realize that if these camps are such a threat to the fabric of the playa, the values we hold are simply not that strong to begin with. On the same note, if our values are strong enough, they will not be affected by such camps. We can use this as an opportunity to change those who do not share our values.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:20 pm

BBadger wrote:What if all the money is recycled back into the camp, such that there is no net profit?


making no net profit is still gaining monetarily... vendor camps end up not needing to spend anything because they can rely on the clients who pay cash money to stay there... they get a free ride on the backs of those whom theyve allowed to turn their camp into a commodity

Why does someone else's monetary gain lead you to do less, or change your ways?


because youre being exploited.

Since when does a true believer say "if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em"?


look at what "Mr Redundant" person who runs a VIP/plug n play/vendor camp said in 2011: issue two, inside page, bottom right http://brcweekly.com/

"I've been going to burning man for 14 years. I've busted my ass building theme camps, building the Temple, doing DPW, I've gone through the gamut and in 2007 I had the epiphany of 'Fuck this shit, I might as well get paid for it.'".

He aint the only one,.. and true believers or not.. encouraging his type of behavior surely aint gonna be good for the community because there surely will be people who were, or are currently true believers, as you say, who will feel exploited, jaded and cheated by the encouragement of the gutting of their core values who will take their disgruntlement out in the form of: if i cant beat em, i'll join em..


This is not a call to accept PnP camps as a welcome presence, but rather realize that if these camps are such a threat to the fabric of the playa, the values we hold are simply not that strong to begin with. On the same note, if our values are strong enough, they will not be affected by such camps. We can use this as an opportunity to change those who do not share our values.


the problem is that we the people cannot be the sole protectors of the community. the real stewards of this community are the people running burning man: the BRC LLC...

if they are giving these camps access to tickets, placement, assistance and encouragement.. no amount of occupy type community bullshit is gonna get them out, as will chase said: these camps are here to stay.

whether the community doesnt value this behavior or not,.. it appears that the stewards and true arbiters of what is allowed apparently disagree..

and thats where the problem lies.. we have to look to the LLC to solve some of the problems that we cant fix ourselves...we cant deny these camps access..and we cant kick them out...

it appears here, that the community cant fix a problem that they believe is a problem.. because the LLC is apparently openly encouraging it.

the net result is that no matter how true to our beliefs we are, how important our values are.. we wont be able to control this.. we cant strangle them out..... because from the highest positions these camps are being encouraged.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:57 pm

BBadger wrote:We can use this as an opportunity to change those who do not share our values.


thats what the LLC seems to think, and one of the apparent reasons they started this conversation (which they havnt apparently participated in.. as Bob pointed out)..

much of the community seems to be against this type of thing. everywhere ive seen it discussed people who arent in support of such operations vastly outnumber those in support of it...it seems that the only ones who are embracing it are the BRC LLC..

and it appears the LLC are looking to those who do not support it to find a way to integrate them into the community...

I don't see how we could integrate them, i dont see why we should.. their existence at burning man looks to much of the community like they dont belong... and once they are there, the damage that causes people to feel they dont belong is already done.

no matter how much we can instill our culture into the clients of these vendor operations, (if it is even possible to do so) it hasnt changed the fact that they are customers of operations that have turned the event into a cash commodity that their businesses rely on to operate (for profit or not).

its like the LLC has thrown a bunch of wild animals who dont get along into a cage and is hoping that they will 'work things out' before they kill one another........
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby pink » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:08 pm

It's already a problem, spreading like a cancer. The Mal-mart post quoted by Janus was a from a self-aware Mal-Mart member who, after coming up with this solution to a member and cash shortage, slapped their head and said 'oh shit, is this what we are?'. Because when I read that thread, that was the impression I got. The poster was asking a question. And really, they planned too big, and don't want to change those plans when they found themselves short of ticketed members.

Janus posted it to say IMHO, see! Other people are doing it too!

And it does become competition, in a way. Because new camps or evolving camps will see this as a way to get a more awesome camp, or piece of art, or groovier MV. Rather than having something like that be a testament to your particular dedication to your camp or art or MV, it becomes evidence of your fundraising skills. How good a salesperson you are.

When I first started burning, one of the things that blew my mind and turned me into a burner was the dedication of people who created for no other purpose than the need to create, who shared their vision freely and asked nothing in return from me or anyone else. That they would gift this to me, without knowing me, simply for the joy of sharing and creating.

Rose colored glasses? Was I just a naive fool? No, because thats the way our camp works. But every other large camp might be looked at with suspicion. The Trojan horse has been. Mal-mart may be able to be saved before turning to the Dark Side. But I won't walk last their structure without wondering.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Trishntek » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:41 pm

Pink, have I told you lately how much I adore you?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby pink » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:54 pm

Love you too TnT!

Now I gotta do some work so I can play later....dreaming of dust as I plug away so I can go out to play!

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby BBadger » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:47 pm

lemur wrote:
BBadger wrote:What if all the money is recycled back into the camp, such that there is no net profit?


making no net profit is still gaining monetarily... vendor camps end up not needing to spend anything because they can rely on the clients who pay cash money to stay there... they get a free ride on the backs of those whom theyve allowed to turn their camp into a commodity


So now there's something wrong because someone did not have to spend money? Is this now about paying the piper? To whom? Who is doing the commodifying here?

Why does someone else's monetary gain lead you to do less, or change your ways?


because youre being exploited.


You're only exploited if you feel entitled to a cut of the action. But then you're bringing stuff to the playa to share for free. What have you lost? Or have you lost because someone else has gained? Did you give freely, or conditionally?

Since when does a true believer say "if I can't beat 'em, I'll join 'em"?


look at what "Mr Redundant" person who runs a VIP/plug n play/vendor camp said in 2011: issue two, inside page, bottom right http://brcweekly.com/

"I've been going to burning man for 14 years. I've busted my ass building theme camps, building the Temple, doing DPW, I've gone through the gamut and in 2007 I had the epiphany of 'Fuck this shit, I might as well get paid for it.'".


What does that have to do with the "true believer"? Mr. Redundant lost his way a long time ago tallying up his "good works" far before he ever made the connection to make some dough on it. You see that kind of participation-entitlement all over this board ("ooo, I brought X, so I deserve Y!"). The only difference we're seeing here is that now some money has exchanged hands, but really nothing fundamental has changed.

He aint the only one,.. and true believers or not.. encouraging his type of behavior surely aint gonna be good for the community because there surely will be people who were, or are currently true believers, as you say, who will feel exploited, jaded and cheated by the encouragement of the gutting of their core values who will take their disgruntlement out in the form of: if i cant beat em, i'll join em..


I don't see this connection. Your values are gutted and so your next move is to... get in on that action? It's like seeing deplorable acts of rape occurring around you and in despair you start raping people too?

Or is this more to say that burners are really nothing more than the same people who would profit from the burn? That the potential to sin is inherent; that it is expected that you cast aside your values when enticed? Like some Muslims expect of men when women wear no veils? In such a case, is BM just one big phony face we put on to pretend we adhere to the values? That burners only practice what they preach because they're bound by shame and incentives?

You know, after what I've seen these past few months in the wake of the ticket debacles, maybe the latter is simply true: you can't expect more from most (not all) "burners". Maybe we do have to corral the masses lest they stray. We've seen so many examples of this with all the participation-entitlement, scapegoatery, and other bullshit that has crept out of the woodwork since tickets could not be had by all.

We should expect no better. We're only human right? To protect the illusion that is Burning Man, we need to adopt policies similar to how organized religions to keep their members in line--and keep the heretics at bay. The sheep cannot be trusted to choose correctly. They gravitate towards evil without the shepherds.

the problem is that we the people cannot be the sole protectors of the community. the real stewards of this community are the people running burning man: the BRC LLC...

if they are giving these camps access to tickets, placement, assistance and encouragement.. no amount of occupy type community bullshit is gonna get them out, as will chase said: these camps are here to stay


And to what extent does the LLC involve itself in our camp lives to ensure we're not straying towards heresy?

I mean, hell, I pay "camp dues" and somebody else sets up the camp evap pond and most of the kitchen tents. Am I now engaging in this PnPism? Or are my sins absolved because I helped bring some of the parts?

Or does it have to do with how much was paid? I certainly didn't drop $10k to join this camp, evap pond or not, but $50/a person isn't chump change (though I've heard very good compared to many other camp dues). The increase in dues supposedly went into buying the camp's a storage container. Does that count though? I mean, even if the net amount of money spent does not result in profit, that is still "gaining monetarily" by that previous definition right?

Or does it have to do with camp obligations, like the fact that my sub-group had to make one meal for the camp the entire week? So now I'm cleared? I've participated more than a bench-warming PnPer? Or not, because that was an obligation not volunteering?

I'm confused. What is the standard here? I don't want to be labeled a PnPer when the Inquisitors arrive because I really don't think I am, but then again I've also partaken of camp stuff done by other people--and paid for it in some way as well. Maybe the decision will be as arbitrary as the remaining 10k ticket allocation?

This whole what-constitutes-a-Plug-and-Play camp really seems very subjective and arbitrary. Can we please have a real definitions?

Perhaps I can buy an indulgence from the LLC just in case?

whether the community doesnt value this behavior or not,.. it appears that the stewards and true arbiters of what is allowed apparently disagree..


If only they had hired some inquisitors private investigators to root out the heretics commodifiers. Suffer not a Plug & Play to camp and all that. The participation police.

and thats where the problem lies.. we have to look to the LLC to solve some of the problems that we cant fix ourselves...we cant deny these camps access..and we cant kick them out...


Can we also kick out those camps with dues? Those damn people collecting money for rideshare gas? People who pay inflated prices in Reno? The people who use Kickstarter for project funding? The people who helped fund MVs, but didn't actually build them? Those assholes who charge $3/bag for ice (fuck those transportation costs; they should want to bring it in for cost)? The people collecting aluminum cans only, to recycle for cash?

I mean holy shit, why stop at PnP camps? Let's get rid of all the people who participated in some monetary transaction that benefited someone.

it appears here, that the community cant fix a problem that they believe is a problem.. because the LLC is apparently openly encouraging it.


I saw no encouragement. Or is it that silence is tacit approval? Or that because they didn't arbitrarily terminate placement of camps that had some video on the net that this is encouraging such behavior?

the net result is that no matter how true to our beliefs we are, how important our values are.. we wont be able to control this.. we cant strangle them out..... because from the highest positions these camps are being encouraged.


No need to even bother with a populace that holds that kind of outlook.

This year is awesome. The ticket scarcity sure has facilitated the airing of true colors. Burgin hate, railing against "Plug and Play" camps (as if they didn't exist before this year), anger and hope abandonment at every step in the ticket process, participation-entitlement, etc. What more, all those lovely things that people hate about religions are popping up: the Puritan-esque "good works" piety, the inferiority complexes, the faith abandonment, the xenophobia, the calls for inquisitions against heretics.

What a cute microcosm this all is.

If this is how it is, let's get this shit over with. It's just a running farce.

I think we'll end up fine.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:13 pm

it took a while to find answers to the 40 questions you asked, but here are your answers, BBadger..

yes
no
unknown
businesses

integrity
possibly
unknown

example

maybe
no
no
no
no
no
no
(edit: no)

varied
depends
unknown
no
depends
depends
no
depends
unknown
depends
integrity
unknown
yes
maybe

no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
integrity
unknown
possibly
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:29 am

with most of the direct, rhetorical and hyperbolic questions removed.. the things youve actually SAID, and not asked.. are somewhat interesting

but its still kind of hard to see where the hyperbole ends, and where the serious opinion begins.... even with most of the question related stuff removed.

so...lets try again.. this time with my guess of your serious opinions/comments without the hyperbole/sarcasm/religion stuff

BBadger wrote:You're only exploited if you feel entitled to a cut of the action. But then you're bringing stuff to the playa to share for free.

Mr. Redundant lost his way a long time ago tallying up his "good works" far before he ever made the connection to make some dough on it. You see that kind of participation-entitlement all over this board ("ooo, I brought X, so I deserve Y!"). The only difference we're seeing here is that now some money has exchanged hands, but really nothing fundamental has changed.

You know, after what I've seen these past few months in the wake of the ticket debacles, maybe [we] can't expect more from most (not all) "burners". We've seen so many examples of this with all the participation-entitlement, scapegoatery, and other bullshit that has crept out of the woodwork since tickets could not be had by all.

We should expect no better.

This whole what-constitutes-a-Plug-and-Play camp really seems very subjective and arbitrary.

This year is awesome. The ticket scarcity sure has facilitated the airing of true colors. Burgin hate, railing against "Plug and Play" camps (as if they didn't exist before this year), anger and hope abandonment at every step in the ticket process, participation-entitlement, etc.

What a cute microcosm this all is.

I think we'll end up fine.


ok now we're gettin somewhere!!!

in terms of what seems like the honest things/opinions it seems like youve said/thought:


youre saying that burners arent exploitable unless the burners expect a cut of the action.... i doubt many would agree with that.. I think we can be exploited no matter what.

you seem to think that Mr Redundant lost his way.. yes.. there is a way, apparently.... and i agree he has lost it

that we cannot expect burners to be honorable.. i doubt many would agree with that... I think we can expect a lot of things from our friends/community

that we shouldnt expect them to be honorable.. i doubt many would agree with that.. i think that there are some things we should expect of our friends/community

that youre confused about this term 'plug and play', i think many people are.. perhaps the LLC unintentionally chose a rather nebulous term, perhaps not.... whatever the case may be.. the use of that term certainly doesnt, in my opinion, serve this discussion very well

about this year:

you mention burgin hate.. I am not sure if i think ive seen any hate, perhaps passionate people... but real hate? im not sure if ive seen it

you mention railing against plug and play camps.. but its not as if that subject came out of nowhere, people were asked for their opinions (whether the operations existed before or not), this isnt an organic hate fest like the ticket situations of the past.. this was intended to be in response to a request for dialog..

you mention anger.. hope abandonment.. entitlement.. yeah, i think ive seen that as well

in the end we'll end up fine? maybe!! .. maybe not...





i like it better when we get down to the things that you really think/feel/say ..much more interesting for conversation/discussions! (lots less questions to answer, too)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby percussivepaul » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:59 am

I just want to say lemur is really capturing my own thoughts as well. I don't know how many people feel the same way, but I don't want anyone to think it is just one person's viewpoint.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Elorrum » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:28 am

Making a living off something you REALLY love to do. a dream come true. or pimping?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:04 am

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby 5280MeV » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:58 am

Pop_Tart wrote:Question: Are we hosting a Plug & Play camp?


Ok, we have reviewed your application to be listed as a Plug & Play camp and full details are below. In short, we are severely disappointed by your clear lack of effort towards the potential needs of the client.

Pop_Tart wrote: For our 2012 Erection (BaalMart), MalMart needs approx $20K-$25K to rent scaffolding, speakers, projectors, lights, & moving trucks. These funds will also be used to fabricate geodesic domes, fabric wall panels, comfy couches, and sturdy ramps. Currently we have 22 total Core Mal-Mart members with tickets (7 lottery, 15 from BMOrg & Placement [THANK YOU!!!]).


We are to understand this is for a public venue? How much time will be allotted for private parties or amenities? Are there any?

Pop_Tart wrote:We 22 core members are artists, school teachers, engineers, stage designers, computer programers, DJs, etc, etc, etc. We are not trust fund babies or indepently wealthy. We have our 9-5's, and our 2 weeks of vacation per year, and we all live our 51 weeks per year looking forward to our 1 week in the desert.


Your lack of vacation time is unfortunate. Perhaps if you upgraded your services you would be able to take more time off.

Pop_Tart wrote:That said, we 22 cant afford $1K+ each. We have to bring in non-core people to assist via camp dues and fundraisers.


You also need to consider that these funds should be used to improve the experience of the client. We are troubled by the financial breakdowns that we have seen, as it appears that most if not all of the funding will be used on a public venue and artwork.

Pop_Tart wrote:We are looking to charge $150-$200 in dues per person and seeking to get a total camp size of 100-149.


The very reasonable level of basic camp dues is just about the only positive we see in your proposal. That said, you need to specify the price exactly, even if it is small. There should be higher tiers with additional prices as not everyone is going to be satisfied with just the basic package.

Pop_Tart wrote:In exchange for camp dues, people get a communal kitchen they can use to cook their own food, a patch of prime real estate to put up their tent, and a huge grey water evap pool.


This part is simply appalling. It is one thing to ask or encourage participants to aid in food preparation as this can in some cases enrich their transformational experience. It is quite another to demand that they carry out all food preparation on their own and also bring their own food. How can you expect the client to know what to bring, how to store it, and how to prepare it? You should be ashamed.

You provide a grey water evap pool, but no guidance on what to do with the pool or how to even set up a shower. Showers are a basic component of the plug & play experience and it is simply absurd not to provide them. The potential client will probably not even understand the playa jargon of "greywater" and "evap pond". It is one thing to give a workshop on how these things are set up, it is quite another to simply expect people to know what to do with them.


Pop_Tart wrote:They also get the opportunity to participate daily with the Baal-Mart structure, events, and activities.


Lets be honest here - these activities are open to the public. It is transparent to us that you are asking the client to do things like tend the bar, get ice, support the sound and light crew - basically just to do more work.

Pop_Tart wrote:In my eyes, we are a group of anarchistic burners bringing in other ticketed burners, virgins and otherwise, to help offset the costs of our crazy structure.


Yes, we can agree with you here. Anarchy is the best way to describe this disaster.

Pop_Tart wrote:The only 4 things we ask our non-core members is to bring a couple of handles of vodka to donate to the bar, to keep the kitchen clean, to perform daily Moop patrols of the camp, and to help with the breakdown of the structure.


Outrageous! Not only do you provide exactly zero food - you demand that the client bring the alcohol! And this kitchen - basically the only amenity provided - if you can even call it that, has to be cleaned after use??? Great - the client has to bring their own food, store it, figure out how to prepare it, and then clean everything up. The client may as well just buy a folding table and a coleman stove!

Also, while we understand that asking for a day of MOOPing is reasonable and in some cases can form a part of the transformational experience offered to the client, asking for MOOPing every day is beyond the pale. Has it even occurred to you that the client may need uninterrupted 24 hour periods to undergo ecstatic and transformational processes? Or that the client may be exhausted after such catharses? Not only do you fail to feed the poor, sleep-deprived client, you also demand that they clean up the garbage left the night before by other people? So what, has the client paid to be a janitor for everyone else at your dance venue?

Have you ever heard of a teardown crew? You might want to consider that. After a week in the desert your campers will be very tired.

Pop_Tart wrote:They still have to bring all of their own tents, food, water, costumes, bikes, RVs, etc.


So why are you even wasting our time with this application?

Pop_Tart wrote:In 2010, we charged people extra to get a room in the structure. That felt kind of wrong, as it made us more of a commercial hotel type experience. This year we will be setting up some communal crash lounges in the structure where anyone can pass out for a spell.


We thought that high rise rooms in the structure are exactly the direction you should be headed in. Again, a tiered system can help provide for the needs of a wide variety of clients, and spread the transformational experience to a larger segment of society.

The fact that you have simply given away the prime space in the structure which the client is expected to pay for and also take apart (I bet you won't even provide work gloves) is evidence that you simply don't "get it". We believe that there is simply no hope for this camp.

In fact, calling this camp plug & play is just a deliberate facade to hide the fact that you are doing nothing more than inclusively bringing in random people to be a part of your giant erection, and do damn near everything on their own. All the client is doing is giving up their money to support the project, and then working further to support the public project while they should be free to undergo a transformational experience. You are robbing the customer not only of their money, but also of their time and freedom. When they should be finding themselves in the dust, they will instead be trying to simply survive, or worse serving drinks to random people who didn't pay a cent!

Do we even need to state that you fail to qualify? We are making you RED on the P&P map. No, scratch that. To emphasize your obvious lack of effort or understanding, we are marking your spot with a BLACK dot.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby some seeing eye » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:22 am

Many nonprofits pay top in the top few percent of incomes to their executives. No, they don't offer stock compensation, which can be astronomical. But look around your local burner community. You will find dozens or more that earn significant income from events run by volunteers on the appeal of "community". Even festival crafters, bestest individual business owners, are benefitting. Same with any number of nonprofits, religious groups, the list goes on. We won't even talk about nonprofits seriously distorting government activities to the average citizen's detriment.

PnP is here to stay and there is no possibility to eliminate it. The ORG itself is PnP. Choose your reality, and your BM experience. Don't complain you are a victim of what you choose. It's unsightly.

More specific suggestions to socialize PnP virgins welcome.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby PapaBear2120 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:56 am

First, I think Lemur and BBadger are both doing an excellent job of pulling up the details of this discussion. I tend to agree with things both of you are saying, maybe because you're both good at analysis of details, maybe because this issue contains so many grey areas.

What I want to examine in this post is a mixture of the issue of PnP with the issue of ticket scarcity, using my own camp model and the issues we ran into last year with the hypotheticals of the upcoming year.

lemur wrote:(edit: dont think that i am saying camps shouldnt pool resources in the form of camp dues.. ...they should, and usually.. they do so organically.. camp dues are paid by the members of that micro community, the friends and acquaintances in that social network pay it all... and they dont just start appealing to total strangers when they realize they cant afford to do what they want.... organic pooling of resources should be the norm....people shouldnt look to strangers whos only real place in the camp is as someone who paid money to fill in the gaps where the organic resrouce pooling failed.)


In the previous years I was involved or running a theme camp, the pooling of resources did happen amongst a micro community. We would inform previous campers that yes, of course, we are doing the theme camp again and begin meetings. Those members would bring people on board from Eugene (our home base) and sometimes Portland. We would figure out what we wanted to do (usually following a close model of the previous year), a budget, how many members we would need at what camp due price, while trying to keep the camp from getting too big. The last part was important to us, we wanted to be large enough to afford our plans while small enough that everyone could get to know each other and have a tight knit camp. Then we would start having work parties and build the camp with volunteer work from everyone, get to the Playa, and run the camp with volunteer work from everyone. No one got paid, camp coords all paid the same dues, etc. etc.

This all worked until last year. Each year, though we know we'll find that 60 people to build the camp the way we like it, it can be a mad scramble at the end to boost though numbers. Previously, it's always been within our network. When tickets sold out last year, we had a sudden fear that we wouldn't find those numbers because some of our slacker friends didn't get their tickets yet. A couple of them were head coords that truly had financial problems that forced them to wait (that's not the issue btw). In searching for tickets, we had people not in our network contact us (some who thought they might be able to get us a ticket, some who didn't, but liked what we were doing with our camp) and wanted to join up.

We would communicate with these people, feel them out, and then if they seemed like good fits, invited them on board. Most of these people were not in Oregon.

Were they PnP?

They couldn't do the work parties in our home base, because they were hours and states away; however, they did join in on Playa and worked their asses off just like everyone else. Yes, they weren't as connected as the rest the locals in the camp, because they didn't know us as well. It required that week for them to meet us. But the issue is that they paid camp dues; therefore, they paid us money to set up our camp which they then came and enjoyed. Whether they worked shifts at our camp and were part of the interactive experience we create, they fit into what some people have called PnP. Unfortunately.

So based on Lemur's differentiation—which I'm not arguing is wrong, it strikes a resounding chord within me—by bringing in these 4 or 5 people, we became PnP. PnP is something I feel truly against for all the reasons that have been talked about above.

The hypotheticals: With ticket scarcity, the issue we faced last year becomes even more paramount. We were offered tickets by our Placers (thank you very much for letting us do this again!), which allows us to bring a sizable core crew on to make the camp happen. Unfortunately, within our network here in Eugene and Portland, a large portion of people didn't get any tickets in the Lottery; therefore, our normal running capacity of 60 people is threatened.

I'm honestly not that worried about finding enough people in our network, I think we can do it; however, when it comes close to late July and we suddenly realize we're still short 5 or 10 people, what do we do? We can of course cut our budget. Not bring as many kegs to serve, don't do as much ambiance, etc. etc. There is no stipulation when we were giving distributed tickets to meet or overcome our previous creation, and with the ticket debacle Placers are probably expecting some shortfall.

But this is just us, and if these ticket problems continue into the future, other camps are going to face the same issues. Camps don't need to be f'ing spectacular, not everyone even enjoys visiting theme camps, but I like creating something that people come to enjoy. Maybe I have too much pride, but I want us to be f'ing spectacular, even if we don't have burning things or huge art installations. I and the rest of our crew, don't want to be PnP though, so we may have to sacrifice some of our aspirations.

Other camps are going to be facing some of these same problems and questions. I think why this has become a question from BMORG of how to integrate and not how to stop PnP from happening is because with ticket scarcity these problems are going to arise. Camps are going to have to draw from people not within their network, i.e. the sticky thread "Theme Camps Seeking Participants." It's interesting that not many camps have posted in there. It goes a long way to say that most camps are attempting to fill in from their network first before seeking outside members.

My opinion: I find these "for-profit" business model theme camps disturbing. They go against every BM related ethic I've built up over the years. Ethics in themselves are grey areas and each and every one of us is going to have slightly different takes on the 10 principals. However, theme camps are generally built on the camp dues or donations of money from their members; therefore, if BMORG is going to state that "We believe that it’s critical that we attend to Black Rock City’s vital functions — ensuring that theme camps can assemble, art installations can be created, mutant vehicles can safely roam the playa, performance groups have their performers, and Burning Man’s volunteer crews are staffed to provide the vital community services that make our city work" (Goodell) then some level of accessing campers outside of the local community of the camps is going to happen.

Regulation would then be a farce. How can you say one camp brought in 5 members to fill up the camp and those members are acting just like every other member does and this camp over here brought in 5 members, but those members are putting down extra cash and are tourists or feel entitled.

In conclusion, and I hate to say this, PnP camps exist and are not going away. The solution? That's what were need to be doing here. Figuring out a solution to integrate these camps so the PnPers don't feel/act like tourists. 4 or 5 years ago I circled around a girl in the middle of the Playa on my bike yelling at her for peeing. That makes me one of those dickhead Burners who is not always love and cuddles (although I can totally be love and cuddles as long as you're not peeing in the middle of the Playa or burning a fucking mattress). That may not have been the best way to integrate someone. I could of just chatted with her nicely while she peed and explained to her how I really didn't want to step in that in my sandals. So, if PnP camps are not going away, what are we going to do? That's where I think this discussion is straying a bit. There's too much talking about the problem and not enough talking about solutions. Once again, regulation on Playa isn't going to work. There are some things Placers can do when accepting camps, but PnP camps are not stupid and they'll find ways through the cracks. Once again, what are the solutions to integrating these tourists?

Cited: Goodell, Marian. "Ticket Update: Rebuilding Black Rock City 2012." The Burning Blog. Burning Man, 2012. http://blog.burningman.com/2012/02/news ... city-2012/
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Eric » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:16 am

For people wondering if the Org cares about those "package tour" deals posters have been linking to earlier in this thread, I just wanted to point out that both the "Burning Brothers Outfitters" and the "Classic Adventures" packages were reported to press (at) burningman (dot) com and the "Classic Adventures" package is gone, the "Burning Brothers" has been dramatically changed.

The Org does act on these, don't hesitate to report them at the email I just listed. I just use the subject line "possible copyright violation" and then explain what I (or you all) found.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Bob » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:01 pm

Okay, here's a thought or two... What could possibly be changed on the placement questionnaire to address people's concerns?

Should registration be extended to all camps, whether they're formally placed as theme camps or not? How nosy should the org be?

Submitting a camp plan that includes parking for fifty RVs, with a tent ghetto alongside, could be a clue that you're one of these alleged PnP camps. Or not -- maybe you're just the Duggar Family.

(Decade ago, I helped the department leaf through the theme camp applications to identify possibly hazardous scaffold towers and other structures, so I got a taste of what an immense job placement entails. Don't envy their current tasks at all.)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby eb0502 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:09 pm

a penalty of bad placement (and i mean bad placement) for a bad track record is more than fair, and in saying that, im all for forgetting Playaskool's track record for 2011 as a test tube year and starting a new slate for this year for them. should things not go to plan again, put them somewhere where they're out of sight / out of mind

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby BBadger » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:24 pm

lemur wrote:youre saying that burners arent exploitable unless the burners expect a cut of the action.... i doubt many would agree with that.. I think we can be exploited no matter what.

you seem to think that Mr Redundant lost his way.. yes.. there is a way, apparently.... and i agree he has lost it

that we cannot expect burners to be honorable.. i doubt many would agree with that... I think we can expect a lot of things from our friends/community

that we shouldnt expect them to be honorable.. i doubt many would agree with that.. i think that there are some things we should expect of our friends/community

that youre confused about this term 'plug and play', i think many people are.. perhaps the LLC unintentionally chose a rather nebulous term, perhaps not.... whatever the case may be.. the use of that term certainly doesnt, in my opinion, serve this discussion very well


My confusion is more that there's no objective standard. I think this is realized, and it is why the major criterion for camp ticket allocation is the LNT record, which is the only objective standard any camp on the playa can be judged by.

What really constitutes a plug and play camp? Furthermore, if it can't be defined, what are we really directing this anger at? Yeah, PlaySkool is an outrageous example of "plug and play" but beyond that we're quickly falling into a gray area with respect to what is PnP. Look at my questions in the previous reply about my camp dues and what other people set up for our camp. What is the bar here, because I do not support arbitrary application of "the law"--that is no law.

I also think One Seeing Eye hit it on the head when he mentioned that BM itself is a form of "plug and play". Most of us don't bring our own toilets, we don't clean up the playa after the event is over (to the extent of the official volunteers), we also pay for the privilege of attending and having all these services. What is the major distinction between what we get from BMOrg and what people get from their camps? That BMOrg gets the funds, not an individual? That's shakey ground, a rule for the rulers, a rule for the ruled?

Finally, what can actually be done? This is where you and I part ways: you want the cancer excised; I don't think we can identify, with confidence, the "heretical elements" on the playa, and therefore feel a more ground-level approach is needed.

you mention burgin hate.. I am not sure if i think ive seen any hate, perhaps passionate people... but real hate? im not sure if ive seen it


Perhaps "hate" is too strong a word, but still the sense is there. It's not like there will be lynchings, but look at the blame being cast, the selective exclusion, the labels and prejudiced stereotyping ("tourists", "spectators"), the feelings that burgins "stole" tickets from "vets", the years-of-attendance entitlement.

you mention railing against plug and play camps.. but its not as if that subject came out of nowhere, people were asked for their opinions (whether the operations existed before or not), this isnt an organic hate fest like the ticket situations of the past.. this was intended to be in response to a request for dialog..


It manifested itself because of the ticket shortage. Now, with a limited supply of tickets people are picking who to selectively exclude. Before, PnP camps with "Segway riding, RV-renting assholes" were more of a novelty: a group of people who just didn't "get it", some eBay assholes who were suckering people into a pricey vacation. In the end, however, it wasn't a big issue--like burgins, tourists, spectators, etc.--because people had their tickets.

Then comes this ticket debacle, and the true colors show. Conspiracy theories, scapegoats, questioning this concept of "radical inclusion", etc. Everything is fine until people don't get their share.

Maybe you're damn right that this place is going to fall apart without finding some group of people to concentrate anger on. It's always been that way with oppressive situations and a lot of fear. I don't think, however, that PnP camps are really the problem here, any more than scalpers, or burgins--just another scapegoat in a ticket-scarcity situation.

What most troubles me is how quickly people abandon their so-called values in this state of fear. The calls for exclusion, the change from "gift" to collateral, radical entitlement, etc. These outside sources are not to blame for this value abandonment. Furthermore, we should not jump to drastic measures because of perceived threats, nor compromise our values, or give up rights. I made those allusions to the "Inquisition" because that was are very repugnant era in Western civilization, brought on by the fear of people more concerned with maintaining a perceived way of thought, rather than doing things to make others wish to change on their own.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby bluesbob » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:39 pm

The very first guy to speak said it all. "We had 60 RV's and 20 tents"....Fuck your camp.

I always thought the harsh desert environment was a very large part of the Burning Man experience. It's only a matter of time before the Borg rents out Disneyworld to accommodate all the pussies of the world.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby TomServo » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:46 pm

Plug & Play...as it should be!
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