Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby 48_love » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:56 pm

the LLC needs to consult Nepal on Sherpa policy, LOL
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Trishntek » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:25 pm

It is rather entertaining to witness the contrasting perspectives on this thread. Here is the first-posting-on-eplaya World Traveler with a seemingly bottomless wallet telling eplayans how much time and effort he puts into his theme camp and STILL has to BUY HIS OWN WAY!

I would say most of us eplayans are either STILL making payments on last year's event, or newly in debt ALREADY for this year's event. Doing something Burning Man is in our blood and a daily part of our lives. To us, it is a lifestyle choice and a whole mindset of generosity and gratefulness. We thrive on the challenges; logistical, physical and economical.

To most of us, we go through all this time and effort to be a part of BRC. We are all benefactors and we are all beneficiaries of our own creations. We are indeed responsible to ourselves; But most importantly, we are responsible to each other.

When someone enters the discussion waxing eloquence about contributing greatly, nay,,, The Most to Black Rock City, why is it this is the first I have ever heard of PlayaSkool? We all are very well exercised in planning camps, building art, operating vehicles, organizing, delegating and SUCCESSFULLY FULFILLING the Principles. I have sensed a wee bit of condescension from Mr. Janus.

Something that needs to be brought to his attention is the FACT that many people on this board scrape and save, create costumes and contribute to each others' interests and projects without solicitation or promise of reward. Gifting is unconditional and without merit. Burning Man is a gathering of the most UNPRETENTIOUS, GRATEFUL, GENEROUS and LOVING people in my experience. This kinship cannot be bought or sold. We are motivated by these tenets. It's not simply something that we do; it is what we are.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby zoebee » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:32 pm

So it seems to me that 99% of you are saying...
you can only come to the playa if you will camp in a tent, cook your own food, contribute to everyone else's conceivable needs and are of limited financial means.
how oddly elitist of all of you.

If you've worked hard and are successful and busy and can afford to give and share and be comfortable... you should still stay in tent and be hot and cook your own damn dusty food. Because shame on you for being rich?!

I am a person of very limited means. I work really hard. I save all year. I gather costumes and plan all year. If I could I would help build an art car. I have contributed art, and helped fund more. I get to the Playa the second I can and leave the last minute possible.... and this year I will proudly be camping at Playa Skool (thanks, you beautiful folk, for inviting me in!!!)

I will be there to help set up (and take down if my job permits me the extra time). I will be on the roster to cook and clean and build and sweat and laugh and probably cry. Like EVERYONE ELSE in camp i will work my balls off to make other people happy. Sometimes I will fail. Sometimes people will fail to make me happy (OMG!) but you know what? THAT'S MY DAMN PROBLEM. I'll pull my balls out of my purse and deal with it.

Someone accused Janus of whining earlier, which I found very funny. It seems that he's one of the few people on here who is not whining. A lot of you are choosing to get angry, or condescending, or rude, or plain nasty and accusatory. You remind me of the girls I went to high school with (shudder). How about ASKING questions? Whatever happened to adult conversations? The majority of the people in this thread sound like they learned their manners hanging out in a TMZ comment thread. A lot of you should be embarrassed for the nasty vibes and immature words used in this comment thread, and mostly for your skewed look at this. Look at your own limited and very judgmental and unforgiving selves. Whenever you point a finger at someone there are three of your own curled back that point at you. (Insert demo)

I get that the lottery system has made us all feel scared and weird and little, but Playa Skool shouldn't be made a scapegoat. As a new Skooler, a tenting (slumming) veteran and a survivor of Entheon 2008 (wow, what a debacle!) I can say I am proud to be associated with P.Skool.

Even some Burners need more Burning man experiences to "get it".

WWTMD?
(what would The Man do?) Enjoy your burn everyone. Breathe deep. We're almost Home.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Trishntek » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:36 pm

zoebee wrote:So it seems to me that 99% of you are saying...
you can only come to the playa if you will camp in a tent, cook your own food, contribute to everyone else's conceivable needs and are of limited financial means.
how oddly elitist of all of you.

If you've worked hard and are successful and busy and can afford to give and share and be comfortable... you should still stay in tent and be hot and cook your own damn dusty food. Because shame on you for being rich?!

I am a person of very limited means. I work really hard. I save all year. I gather costumes and plan all year. If I could I would help build an art car. I have contributed art, and helped fund more. I get to the Playa the second I can and leave the last minute possible.... and this year I will proudly be camping at Playa Skool (thanks, you beautiful folk, for inviting me in!!!)

I will be there to help set up (and take down if my job permits me the extra time). I will be on the roster to cook and clean and build and sweat and laugh and probably cry. Like EVERYONE ELSE in camp i will work my balls off to make other people happy. Sometimes I will fail. Sometimes people will fail to make me happy (OMG!) but you know what? THAT'S MY DAMN PROBLEM. I'll pull my balls out of my purse and deal with it.

Someone accused Janus of whining earlier, which I found very funny. It seems that he's one of the few people on here who is not whining. A lot of you are choosing to get angry, or condescending, or rude, or plain nasty and accusatory. You remind me of the girls I went to high school with (shudder). How about ASKING questions? Whatever happened to adult conversations? The majority of the people in this thread sound like they learned their manners hanging out in a TMZ comment thread. A lot of you should be embarrassed for the nasty vibes and immature words used in this comment thread, and mostly for your skewed look at this. Look at your own limited and very judgmental and unforgiving selves. Whenever you point a finger at someone there are three of your own curled back that point at you. (Insert demo)

I get that the lottery system has made us all feel scared and weird and little, but Playa Skool shouldn't be made a scapegoat. As a new Skooler, a tenting (slumming) veteran and a survivor of Entheon 2008 (wow, what a debacle!) I can say I am proud to be associated with P.Skool.

Even some Burners need more Burning man experiences to "get it".

WWTMD?
(what would The Man do?) Enjoy your burn everyone. Breathe deep. We're almost Home.

Funny,,, most people at least have the courtesy to introduce themselves before insulting them. For your first post on ePlaya,,, bad manners,,,, go shit in your own house.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby LegendZero » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:40 pm

*cough*sockpuppet*cough*
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby gyre » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:43 pm

Hey there!

Welcome to eplaya, Zoebee!
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby pink » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:06 am

zoebee wrote:So it seems to me that 99% of you are saying...
you can only come to the playa if you will camp in a tent, cook your own food, contribute to everyone else's conceivable needs and are of limited financial means.
how oddly elitist of all of you.


If you've worked hard and are successful and busy and can afford to give and share and be comfortable... you should still stay in tent and be hot and cook your own damn dusty food. Because shame on you for being rich?!

I am a person of very limited means. I work really hard. I save all year. I gather costumes and plan all year. If I could I would help build an art car. I have contributed art, and helped fund more. I get to the Playa the second I can and leave the last minute possible.... and this year I will proudly be camping at Playa Skool (thanks, you beautiful folk, for inviting me in!!!)

I will be there to help set up (and take down if my job permits me the extra time). I will be on the roster to cook and clean and build and sweat and laugh and probably cry. Like EVERYONE ELSE in camp i will work my balls off to make other people happy. Sometimes I will fail. Sometimes people will fail to make me happy (OMG!) but you know what? THAT'S MY DAMN PROBLEM. I'll pull my balls out of my purse and deal with it.

Someone accused Janus of whining earlier, which I found very funny. It seems that he's one of the few people on here who is not whining. A lot of you are choosing to get angry, or condescending, or rude, or plain nasty and accusatory. You remind me of the girls I went to high school with (shudder). How about ASKING questions? Whatever happened to adult conversations? The majority of the people in this thread sound like they learned their manners hanging out in a TMZ comment thread. A lot of you should be embarrassed for the nasty vibes and immature words used in this comment thread, and mostly for your skewed look at this. Look at your own limited and very judgmental and unforgiving selves. Whenever you point a finger at someone there are three of your own curled back that point at you. (Insert demo)

I get that the lottery system has made us all feel scared and weird and little, but Playa Skool shouldn't be made a scapegoat. As a new Skooler, a tenting (slumming) veteran and a survivor of Entheon 2008 (wow, what a debacle!) I can say I am proud to be associated with P.Skool.

Even some Burners need more Burning man experiences to "get it".

WWTMD?
(what would The Man do?) Enjoy your burn everyone. Breathe deep. We're almost Home.


No, what we are saying is that no matter who you are, you should be a contributory member, and not try to buy your way into a 'Burning Man Experience'. I don't care if you are rich as Mitt Romney, in the dust, you are one of us. I don't care if you come in a top of the line RV and I'm in a van w/o working A/C (including dash, BTW), and our campmate is in a ratty old tent he found at the Salvation Army. But we work together....maybe you bring up ratty tent guy's bike on the back of your RV and haul in some of the extra water because you have space. And you bought another solar panel this year- thank you! How cool. I got this neat fire pit. And hey! now we have a camp fridge. Cool. Let's make ice pops. Now let's all get this shade structure up, we gotta get our camp together by Monday afternoon.

Burners have always been of varying economic strata. The thing I loved about it though, was that you couldn't tell the bank CEO from the Silicon Valley millionaire, from the guy in the next cubicle, from the gal who works at McDonald's and saves for a year for a ticket. We got here because something in TTITD called us, and we found a way to get home.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Galaxo Magic » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:07 am

Headmaster Janus wrote:
PapaBear2120 wrote:I was shown this video last summer by someone who was part of the build crew and catering for this camp. I don't know anyone but her and I'm going to refrain from making my own comments about it for the time being. I do think it's a fitting video for this discussion.



Man OH MAN! Obviously NO ONE has watched this video and connect the dots! Even caught ol' Janus by surprise. It certainly makes this conversation ALL the more interesting.

Does anyone see the elephant in the room?

Did someone say elephant? I had better check and make sure ours has not escaped.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:09 am

we nearly all think our project/contribution is the best and most important thing at burning man. in a way it is.. for many of us our burning man experience is largely defined by our involvement in our project/contribution.. we largely do these things because we love doing them, ...personal glory, success and having done it might play a part.. but largely we are interested in doing these things whether burning man is happening or not. (this isnt to say that we dont all enjoy the contributions of others..)

the murkiness of intent is a big issue here..

because whether the intent of some of the people running vendor related business camps that serve clients is to give back to the community in a big way or not.. it becomes muddied because the people (clients) in the camp perhaps arent sharing the communal effort that many other established camps/projects are embracing....

the population of burning man becomes diluted by people who dont have to embrace the same values that others largely agree upon, or possibly even, who never get to encounter those values for themselves, because all the work is done for them... whereas many other camps end up agreeing on the value of communal effort because of their hard work and effort sweat equity... clients to a vendor camp dont get to learn it through practice.

many of us have seen this in our own camps and projects.. You get the same group of people doing all of the work and the ones who are slacking off... the slackers are seen as a negative presence and something to be avoided.. because they dont, apparently, share the values of the hard workers.. the workers who feel their project is important. the ones who arent just working on the project to give back to burning man, but because the project is something they care about personally, with no other strings attached... realizing that the slackers dont really care about the project enough to lend a hand leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the workers... the workers find out that the slackers dont share the value of communal effort.

The way some of these vendor camps are setup seems to openly embrace the type of people who do not have any interest in being involved in that communal effort that is embraced in most camps/projects.

Just showing up for the burn to enjoy yourself is just fine, thousands do it every year.. largely camped in the non-theme-camp-designated areas they tend to be radically self reliant in as much as they can be, providing their own shelter, food, water, logistics and clean up... they largely experience their own version of communal effort which they share with their neighbors every time a big dust storm shows up... and they seem to leave the area pretty clean on the moop map (for the most part)

These vendor related camps seem to openly encourage a different type of participant, one who wants things that even the most non-big-project-involved participants take care of for themselves, already considered and taken care of for them.

Basically this model of vendor related camp cuts out a clients ability to experience many of the things that have largely made burning man important to so many.

The client can pay their way out of communal effort, so they dont experience the satisfaction of having done something..Someone else takes care of caring about making sure the camp runs well so the clients neednt actually feel like they are stewarding something they care about, something theirs.

The clients involvement in the camp is limited to what they are told to do, if anything, so they end up, possibly, not respecting the amount of effort that it takes to make it all happen, a thing that we largely all learn when doing our own project.

Clients neednt have any real devotion to the project, so they lose part of something that binds many burners together, even if you dont like a sound camp you can respect the effort it takes to make it happen because you know how hard you worked on your library camp..

The clients can rely on the business to provide for them.. and if something goes wrong and a crazy dust storm leaves the place in shambles, instead of stepping up like most camps, theyll be looking to the people they paid to put things back together.. losing out on the shared experience of other burners that are invested in making sure their project is well looked after..


and it can go on and on..

of course there are many different types of models for such a vendor related camp, some cutting a client out of the experience of burning man more than others.. but what it boils down to is that these type of camps, along with turning the event into a commodity end up, perhaps unintentionally, disallowing their clients from experiencing the event theyve paid to go to.

you cant buy the experience of having a kick ass project that you setup yourself, managed yourself and watched it work better than you imagined... and i think that for many burners.. this experience is one of the most valuable ones.

the whole gifting culture and no spectators culture isnt one of "NO STANDING AROUND WATCHING" or "GIVE PEOPLE AN OBJECT".... as i see it its one of "DO SOMETHING THAT YOU LOVE DOING", and "LET PEOPLE ENJOY WHAT YOU DID"..

these clients might get to decorate the camp, they might get to ride around on a mutant vehicle.. but unless they are invested in having built it, or are personally invested in wanting their camp to look its best.. they will totally miss out on what 'NO SPECTATORS' and 'GIFT ECONOMY' mean..
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby cosmicgiggle » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:44 am

lemur wrote:we nearly all think our project/contribution is the best and most important thing at burning man. in a way it is...
[snip]
these clients might get to decorate the camp, they might get to ride around on a mutant vehicle.. but unless they are invested in having built it, or are personally invested in wanting their camp to look its best.. they will totally miss out on what 'NO SPECTATORS' and 'GIFT ECONOMY' mean..


lemur, again, could not have said it any better! your patience in explaining things clearly and thoroughly is incredible. thank you for being the voice of the heart of the culture and the opportunity it represents in this discussion.

@zoebee - where to begin? this is not about economics. this is not about how to live on the playa. (though calling sleeping in a tent slumming says more about you than you might realize) this is not about whining. rather this is about the reality of the blood sweat and tears that a lot of us have put into making bm what it is over the past 20 plus years. now some of you want to use OUR community for your OWN purposes.

can you understand how we might feel about that? :wink:
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby zoebee » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:45 am

Wow. Trishntek, sorry lady, I didn't realize you had so many rules! My apologies for not introducing myself. Hi I'm Zoe!

It's funny how we make assumptions when we don't know the facts, right? When I read Trishnteks comment calling me rude and telling me to go shit myself I immediately thought "angry chick" (amongst other things). But he's a dude! And he looks so wise and nice! I feel like Gandalf just called me a twat.

FYI, something thats being oddly overlooked and not mentioned, the other couple in the video worked for Chip Conley's uber P&P camp. If you don't know who Chip is.... he's on the BURNING MAN PROJECT BOARD.

You guys can squat around in here for days on end deliberating and accusing and pointing fingers and being mean, but it's not solving anything. It's negative. It'd be lovely if we could all embrace change, figure out how to work with it and be kind to each other. Nanu nanu. N all that.

Janus has represented us all well. I feel like he has said it with elegance and class and integrity. He has admitted that PS made some mistakes and owned it. SOME people in here don't even have the generosity of spirit to hear what he is saying.

Now... how do I get out of here permanently. This is not a reflection on the community I love or the place I call home.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Jackass » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:52 am

zoebee wrote:.

Now... how do I get out of here permanently. This is not a reflection on the community I love or the place I call home.


This is eplaya not THE playa...Don't let the door hit you on your way out. See you in the dust!
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Trishntek » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:05 am

You guys can squat around in here for days on end deliberating and accusing and pointing fingers and being mean, but it's not solving anything. It's negative. It'd be lovely if we could all embrace change, figure out how to work with it and be kind to each other. Nanu nanu. N all that.


You speak as if being a change agent is an admirable thing and we have no alternative but accept the change you offer. And since we do not like the change expressed, we are being negative. So be it! We do offer a solution, but YOU and Mr. Janus are not listening.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Eric » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:28 am

zoebee wrote:Now... how do I get out of here permanently. This is not a reflection on the community I love or the place I call home.


If you look at threads in the "Preparation" forums you'll probably see a lot more of the community you're familiar with. Any subject that people have strong feeling about... well, just like in real life they will express them.

If you want to judge an entire online community with almost 36,000 separate topics and hundreds of thousands of individual posts based on the experiences you've had in one single thread in the slightly less than 3 hours you've been an active member... well, it kind of gives credance to what the detractors of the Plug-and-Play camps are saying: that it's more about popping in and playing (or arguing) & not actually experiencing what the event, or the ePlaya, actually have to offer if you spend some time & effort.

If you do choose to "get out of here permanently", you just stop posting. Or, as I said, you could spend some time in the other areas of the board & see what this little community has to offer. You might be surprised.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:36 am

zoebee wrote:I get that the lottery system has made us all feel scared and weird and little, but Playa Skool shouldn't be made a scapegoat. As a new Skooler, a tenting (slumming) veteran and a survivor of Entheon 2008 (wow, what a debacle!) I can say I am proud to be associated with P.Skool.



Funny and pertinent how you mention Entheon Village 2008!! For those not in the know Entheon Village was (is?) a highly interactive camp that had camp fees and (like many other camps do) would use that money to provide infrastructure to campers... Campers would be asked to do various shifts during the week..

In 2008 stuff happened..apparently out of the ordinary stuff, and the organizers of Entheon, by their own admission, overreached.. And here it becomes, in my mind, a very apt subject for this discussion.. As the services they promised to provide to their campers who paid money (whether under the guise of 'camp dues' or not..) werent delivered..

To follow are some quotes from the aftermath email sent out in september 2008 to their public email list to all folks who had registered on their website.. .. Im not gonna paste the whole thing for sake of brevity, but also will attempt to avoid quoting anything without important context....(I never camped at entheon, but I have had friends who did)

this is only posted as example of the challenges of this type of thing.. Entheon appears to have handled the aftermath of the situation VERY well. As I understand it from a friend who was a member of this camp, it was a good camp with good supportive people... I know many folks who had a great time there.

We strongly believe that accountability and responsibility require full disclosure, frank discussion, and sincere inclusion.....With its ups and downs, the 2008 event was epic. Never have we been so ambitious and dedicated. Never has our vision been stronger. When we overreached, we were met with astonishing good will and encouragement from the very people who had reason to feel disappointment.


You are entitled to an accounting of what happened and why, but we do not want to rush into that without being sure of our facts and grounded in our perceptions... We know there are questions we have to answer. People want to know why promised services were not delivered early (sometimes, at all).


The fact is that we bit off a lot, and had to deal on the fly with some unexpected factors. This is in the nature of a significant experiment in community, but it also produced significant and justified disappointment for some of our residents. We take personal responsibility for things that went wrong, and we sincerely apologize. We know that many people will see it as part of the burn experience. I hope we will take it, also, as a stumble in the building of a larger community. I am certain nobody will question the hard work and commitment we all saw on the Playa from people struggling to realize a dream. But, if there are some who think a refund is in order, you can call me directly, or email me.... we want everyone to feel fairly treated.


(I dont know that entheon would have (or would?) considered themselves a Plug N Play camp, but I feel their experience can serve as a learning tool in this discussion)

The reason to quote these parts and to show it at all really is to highlight what I see as a disconnect that seems to be occuring with the Plug N Play camp model and BRC as a whole.

You see.. if the services that are promised arent delivered in a "Plug & Play" camp, an apology is, apparently, in order. People paid for a service and they didnt get it... in some cases folks might want a refund.

The reason why I see this as a disconnect with BRC at large is because in the average camp, while someone might express an apology to fellow campers, having a problem with the showers or the infrastructure ends up being everyones problem.. Everyone becomes involved in that issue as everyone has a shared interest and devotion to the project. There isnt a customer who is demanding services they paid for. There is a group who wants to take a shower because its their camp and their camp oughta have a shower. It is their camp, their project and their community and no one is likely looking to management/staff to fix the problem for them.

In the first quote from the Entheon email it seems to express their surprise that people who, they felt, should be disappointed in not getting services they paid for, showed good will and encouragement.

I think this highlights the disconnect that we are bound to see if the LLC encourages Plug and Play type camps... The organizers of a camp should never be pleased that the people in the camp are showing support, good will and encouragement if something goes wrong. That good will, encouragement and support should be the de-facto standard. It should be all hands on deck when some issue comes up. Everyone in the camp should be involved, everyone should be committed to the communal effort. And involved not because they were ordered to, but because they actually care. With the plug and play vendor camps people arent really part of the communal effort.. They are customers..

If camps are cohesive communities there wouldnt be anyone to apologize to, because there wouldnt be an us and them. It would be one communal effort and one camp that shares the same personal responsibility to their community and their project.. the project they all care about.

With a plug and play vendor model camp.. the customers share none of this.. While it might be novel for some of the clients to take part in running some interactivity or driving the art car.. they really dont have any personal connection to it.. for them it would largely be another activity to do. These clients would ride around on the camp mutant vehicle, they would tend the camp bar.. But they would be missing out on much of the shared communal effort that everyone else at the burn has in their projects becuase when it comes down to it.. The clients and customers of the vendor camps dont have a project.

There is again the issue of INTENT ..while a client of a vendor camp might serve the bar and help with interactivity.. they arent nearly as invested in it as the regular BRC camper who isnt just a client, but the one who built the bar, the one who is devoted to that type of interactivity they personally set up..

One is merely doing it as an activity in a camp they are a client of, like on a cruise ship itinerary. And one is doing something they love to do, something that is their gift to the community, ..a thing they are devoted to having succeed when the project is their own.

I believe a client who paid to be in a vendor camp who "volunteers" to Tend Bar one night is much more of a spectator than they might believe they are... At least, in my opinion.. when compared to someone who is devoted to their camps communal effort to create a bar that is within the theme they are strongly devoted to.

In nearly every way, as i see it.. a client of one of these vendor camps isnt given the opportunity to experience the burn in the same way as everyone else, no matter how involved they get in their own particular camp... And in that, I feel these types of camps are possibly detrimental to the community in that they not only turn the event into a commodity, but they limit the experiences of those involved and possibly leave people with a misunderstanding of the core values and principles that many of this community have largely embraced.


(the subject of this post isnt entheon..they came up in the discussion and their experiences in 2008 just serve as an example of concerns that new model plug and play vendor camps may experience and how we can learn from the problems they may encounter..and how those problems might end up as a way for us to understand the impact they may have on our community)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby funkyjigsaw » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:14 am

Well said Lemur!!! Spot on.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:56 am

zoebee wrote:
If you've worked hard and are successful and busy and can afford to give and share and be comfortable... you should still stay in tent and be hot and cook your own damn dusty food. Because shame on you for being rich?!


I'm not sure where you're from, but out here in the west (I'm in Oregon) there's no shame in sleeping in a tent or cooking your own food. Well, I mean, I sleep in a van so I'm a virtual 1%er too.

Some people might be amazed to discover that some wealthy people actually like to camp, and believe it or not, they're able to prepare their own meals without getting dust in them. (Except on the playa. It's foolish to think that working hard and being successful is going to stop a 50-mph windstorm from dusting your food. Playa dust doesn't give a shit.)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby purplerecluse » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:50 am

One could identify plug & play camps as those who file for an EIN (IRS Employer ID #) but who are not non-profits.
[url]http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=97872,00.html[/url]

It sounds like there were a bunch of assholes in a number of PnP camps and that those camps qualified for prime placement. However, in past years there have been theme camps devoted only to being assholes. There are also a billion non-theme camps who don't provide much to the community.

My camp has always pooled money for food and water because it's cheaper and causes less conflict. We usually have a number of virgins and I always have to nag people about MOOP and other stuff. I don't consider our camp to be Plug & Play, but it's difficult to describe the difference between my camp and PlayaSkool, except PlayaSkool had more events and art cars. (It also sounds like PlayaSkool is one of the more reasonable/traditional PnP camps).

Like others, I'm offended by a number of the PnP organizations (especially their marketing). I feel uncomfortable camps that allow people to trade free time on the playa for money. The fact that the money changes hands before the event doesn't mitigate this. Playa time is a precious gift, and I want everyone to have equal access to it - no servant class. However, I don't see any way to prevent this because there are some people who WANT to be servants. I also have a prejudice against RVs at Burning Man and PnP camps directly increase the number of RVs; a lot of the arguments on this topic use the same arguments against RV camps in general. I think it's important to acknowledge that aspect of our dislike.

This conversation is all very interesting, but I feel like it's nowhere near as pressing as the issues around ticket scarcity. (Except maybe that this PnP may have gotten more tickets than they should). Why did anyone take the time to video-tape a meeting about this, which was then posted and emailed out to everyone? Here are some of the questions that need to be answered:
What's going to happen to theme camps whose plans might be radically changed from their placement application? Is there some way to deter scalpers? How can the lottery become fairer next year? Could we raise ticket prices and use the money to bribe the BLM into expanding the number of participants? (50,000 people * $100 increase = $5,000,000)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby yagotetra » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:49 am

Hi guys,

I'm a 3y burner (Pirate) and also a mean little french guy with a Napoleon complex. I have spent the last couple of hours reading all the posts and a few comments come to mind:
For sake of transparency I was camping next to Playaskool last year and they shared their grid with me as they had had RV cancelling and I offered shelter to some of their girls who needed a confy bed and hot shower (they have an intersting mix of tents/yurts and RVs)

None of you respect the 10 principles and there is a reason for that, these principles bump into eachother and are independent, I believe one can aspire to respect them one at a time but apply all of them to every situation is impossible. That's why BMORG screwed with the tickets... Because of radical inclusion, that's why you guys are screaming at eachother "self reliance"vs"radical inclusion".

One should get familiar with the conditions before to enter into the self reliance journey. It seems to be Playaskool is offering some of the members (and there not even core members they're much like satellites) an access to BM via their structure. Since these supposed millionaires will come anyway I prefer them to come and stay with a PnP camp like PLayaSkool which invests all its proceeds into art and infrastructure than in other camps like the one describe in "Town and Country" which runs a non transparent camp fee scheme.

Back to the key topic of self reliance, what is the difference between using water service individually or collectively? The second is cheaper (economies of scale) and allows to use ressources to enhance the experience with other projects like art cars etc...

I volunteered to work on the white fur bus and they put me as a doorman on thursday night, my policy was totally random selection based on occupancy limits except maybe for Ninjas. I hate Ninjas.

To conclude for now I really believe that being judgemental is the last thing Burning Man is about, if guys are making money out of it (and I really don't think they do) good for them let the BMORG decide and as always they'll get it wrong anyway so just let them be and if you don't like it look the other way. When you're lost at 4 and hell and there is a dust storm, who gives a shit if you're in a luxury RV or a tent, you get shelter. These guys are good people and so are you (except maybe Zoe, she's badass... And ridiculously hot too ;) I wouldn't argue with her if I were you)

See you all on the playa

Laurent

PS if you guys want argue with me please do, I am stuck in an hospital bed for the next 4 weeks so this thread can last forever

PPS saying BM is meant for campers in tents is like saying we should go back to typing machines instead of computers, you deny the inevitable progress. There will be more RVs and less tents and the price will keep going up, we've gone mainstream, take it or leave it... Personally I take it and hope for a flood ;)
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Inko Gnito » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:58 am

Trishntek wrote:...I would say most of us eplayans are either STILL making payments on last year's event, or newly in debt ALREADY for this year's event. Doing something Burning Man is in our blood and a daily part of our lives. To us, it is a lifestyle choice and a whole mindset of generosity and gratefulness. We thrive on the challenges; logistical, physical and economical.

To most of us, we go through all this time and effort to be a part of BRC. We are all benefactors and we are all beneficiaries of our own creations. We are indeed responsible to ourselves; But most importantly, we are responsible to each other. ...

Something that needs to be brought to his attention is the FACT that many people on this board scrape and save, create costumes and contribute to each others' interests and projects without solicitation or promise of reward. Gifting is unconditional and without merit. Burning Man is a gathering of the most UNPRETENTIOUS, GRATEFUL, GENEROUS and LOVING people in my experience. This kinship cannot be bought or sold. We are motivated by these tenets. It's not simply something that we do; it is what we are.


+1


The public-relations-bullshit going on in this thread is pissing me off. Someone with hard business interests jerks out the usual nebula of wannabe veteran participator mindfulness. Ridiculous sockpuppet accounts stand by.
I guess it´s not allowed to seriously offend someone in this forum, but i really would like to.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby junglesmacks » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:25 am

I'm dying to make a hookers and blow joke about now, but that was too well said and at a very apt moment.

Bravo, TnT.. bravo.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:29 am

yagotetra wrote:To conclude for now I really believe that being judgemental is the last thing Burning Man is about, if guys are making money out of it (and I really don't think they do) good for them let the BMORG decide and as always they'll get it wrong anyway so just let them be and if you don't like it look the other way. When you're lost at 4 and hell and there is a dust storm, who gives a shit if you're in a luxury RV or a tent, you get shelter. These guys are good people and so are you (except maybe Zoe, she's badass... And ridiculously hot too ;) I wouldn't argue with her if I were you)

It's not 'judgmental' to disagree with someone's ideas. It might feel that way to you at this moment because you are outnumbered by people who want everyone at BM to have a vested interest in BM. I don't see why anyone is missing this point that's being made and why anyone has decided that detractors are 'judgmental' or 'pointing fingers' when it's clear that we are seeking a communal definition of what these valet camps really are.

As for judgmental, which I brazenly admit to being, did you only come here to give some backup to Zoe because you want to have sex with her? Why should we care what she looks like to you? If she's a pretty sparkle pony does that give her a pass? How about staying on topic since all of us are here because we very much care about this event and we hope to retain it's core culture. We're invested in the future of BRC and not because we want to make money by bringing people who are NOT invested in the event.

yagotetra wrote:PPS saying BM is meant for campers in tents is like saying we should go back to typing machines instead of computers, you deny the inevitable progress. There will be more RVs and less tents and the price will keep going up, we've gone mainstream, take it or leave it... Personally I take it and hope for a flood ;)

No one has said you must camp in a tent at BM. Since you have so much time on your hands how about you go back and re-read this thread. The point being made is being invested in the overall camp with something OTHER than paying for your spot.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby 5280MeV » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:44 am

zoebee wrote:If you've worked hard and are successful and busy and can afford to give and share and be comfortable... you should still stay in tent and be hot and cook your own damn dusty food. Because shame on you for being rich?!


This quote bothers me. Sorry to pile on to the criticism, but I don't think that this discussion is really about being rich, or at least it should not be.

Growing up I used to camp out with a lot of wealthy people - doctors mostly - some of whom were incredible outdoorsmen, built camp infrastructure, dehydrated their own food, made their own hummus, and had us cut down dead trees to make money for whitewater canoes even though I am sure that they could just write a check.

Having money is great, and so is being comfortable. My spouse and I will be going to a bed & breakfast next month, seeing some great artwork, eating some great food, and being as completely commodified and un-self-reliant as we can.

I don't see why one would want to do this at Burning Man. As useful and super-effective as money is in mediating and facilitating exchanges and relationships, it is nice to take a one week vacation from it.

Don't get me wrong, it is fun to try and be luxurious on the playa. Building a hexayurt and swamp cooler is major fun, and designing your own ways to make life on the playa fantastic and comfortable is even more fun. Figuring out how to make your own gourmet food, preparing it yourself, dealing with the logistical and physical challenges of making it work, and being hands-on with all stages of preparation - this is the fun of it. If you just cut a check, then it seems like you are just robbing yourself of the experience, and the realization that you actually can accomplish things that you didn't think that you can do.

It just doesn't make any sense how a hired kitchen staff really has anything to do with self-reliance or decommodification. The social environment of a camp with a hired kitchen is mediated by this expectation of a provided service based on a previous transaction.

That said, I don't think that there is any way for the LLC to regulate how camps operate internally - nor should they try. At the same time, we should be honest with ourselves that the whole idea of P&P is obviously antithetical to any concept of self-reliance, radical or otherwise. When it comes to directed tickets and placement, rate camps on what they provide, LNT, interactivity, ratio of inclusive to private events - who cares what is going on in their bedroom.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Leo » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:56 am

So what's next? Will the "plug n play" camps morph into "Club Burn" (Club Med on the playa)? I can visualize buff and tanned folks hanging out on chase lounges, being served cocktails by waitstaff wearing furry costumes.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby yagotetra » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:03 am

Dear DrJet

Have you visited Playaskool last year?
No

Do you know what fraction of the occupants "where tourists"?
No

Are you a moderator in this forum?
No

Are you entitled to tell me what I have the right to write or not?
No

Do you have any sense of humor?
I don't think so

Do I want to fuck Zoe?
Who doesn't? But what's your point there? Are you so limited intellectually to believe that when a man agrees with a woman he wants to fuck her...

So I'll rephrase for you:
It is impossible to know in advance how people will behave on the playa and whether they will participate or just enjoy. If people want to enjoy it as turists and are ready to fly in I don't care and nor should you. Every playaskooler knew at least 10 other people of the camp prior to the event including the so-called turists.
When a friend decides to go to burning man based on the beautiful pictures I take he does not necessarily know how tough it can get and since I learnt from my mistakes I help him.
I book our RV and select the itinerary, I put electrolytes in his cart at walmart, I don't let him take only fresh products cause they will go bad... In a few word I assist him. Playaskool did the same on a larger scale for a few people that were not the majority of the camp and did in the end bring a lot to the community.
My first year I was a turist because I knew nothing and now I try to help people be self-reliant.
According to you whe should all learn the hard way? I disagree, BM is not a one week event it's a philosophy, these "turists" have maybe learnt so much about themselves in the desert that I'm sure they are more inclusive and self reliant now and that's what matters most.

Did I mention Zoe was really ridiculously ridiculoulsy goodlooking?

L
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Steel Kitty » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:10 am

ZaphodBurner wrote:Let me just say that I hate all videos about Burning Man because absolutely zero of them represent my experience. Except the Soul in the Machine demo vid and maybe some old Mutaytor shit. And the fireworks. It's hard to fuck up fireworks.

I think every time Burning Man is captured on film and sold on a disc or shared on the internet, part of its soul dies.


My feelings exactly.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby eb0502 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:18 am

Headmaster Janus, why do you lie so much? why do you sugar coat everything? why are you bad mouthing the people infront of you on the table in the video on your facebook group? and why do you speak so complete and utter shit?

plug and play people that come from all over? BIG WHOOP MAN - they are grown adults and can organize themselves

here's one for you: while juggling a business, organised the whole trip for 2 people, one of which wasnt even anywhere near me, that includes: air tickets into the states, hire truck from san fran to the burn, tarps/other protective equipment to seal off the hood of the car during the burn, Yurt Boards, Yurt Design, Yurt Storage, bike hire, purchase and delivery of 6" tape for yurts...... Got to san fran, cut up the boards, prepared them all off playa, got there, errected everything at 2am with only TWO hands - placed in a camp with no shower, no kitchen................... ALL that from half way around the world, ALL that on my FIRST burn.................. can i afford to do it any other way? hell yea i can, i could have had a rockstar RV... i wanted to taste camping - but regardless of im camping or not, the point is I managed to organize all the above with working 14 hour days with 1 day off a week... any person attending the burn has roughly 3 - 4 months to organize their life for a week.... do you know how EASY that is?

radical self reliance does not mean radical self reliance on your funds to clean up your mess.

you say you had no one cleaning up after you? yes you did.... its not like they werent there for the public to see... did you see the state you left your plot? im surprised you're even allowed to run a camp again after that! there were people cleaning up, and there was not a single RV in sight (yours included)

i hope you paid these poor souls that went over your mess enough, they obviously still didnt do a good job and your plot was STILL in the red - no surprises there, it needed a godly miracle to clean up what was left.


here's ideas for playskool 2012's curriculum -

PS-101 - organizing a desert trip for dummies
PS-102 - cleaning after yourself - introduction to bibs
PS-103 - Regulations & general burning man ethos (i'll bring someone to school you in that since you seem to be seriously lacking, a guest speaker if you may - but he'll ask for payment for his time - which is fair enough, you pay for everything else, you may as well pay him too)
PS-104 - Respect of others (see below)
PS-105 - Manning the F up to your shortfalls

now i quote
If you watch the video of Plug and Play, you get introduced to Andy Tannenhill and Kimberly Morbito -- a couple who put on a true Plug and Play camp. FYI --- their business, Table Nektar, is closed for 4 months because they have the luxury of laying on the beaches throughout South America because of their windfall at Burning Man. On the contrary, I have to post fundraising requests to raise money to get a ticket to participate in a TEDx event because I can't scrap together the money to go. ANY and ALL $$$ from dues goes directly to camp costs and salaries for the Fakulty? hahahaha --- I fart in the general direction of that comment. :-)


id like to point out the SHEER HYPOCRITICAL ATTITUDE that yourself and Zoe above have "oh cant we enjoy ourselves because we are successful and rich" - oh wait, cant they?
its all well and good to speak behind people's backs in the abode of your own private forum is it?

i quote again from your group

Its easy to type loud, angry, and ignorant things from the relative anonymity that the internet provides. With anonymity, there is no accountability for the things they say


do not worry, ill make it my thing to come this year and introduce myself, in the flesh, if you promise me safe passage from your brainwashed skoolers.


_______________


and to the rest of you, Hi there!
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby eb0502 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:27 am

Subject: Plug & Play Camping

yagotetra wrote:In a few word I assist him. Playaskool did the same on a larger scale for a few people that were not the majority of the camp and did in the end bring a lot to the community.


please, elaborate what they brought other than a giant red dot on the map and making everyone camped around the general vicinity's life a nightmare

yagotetra wrote:According to you whe should all learn the hard way? I disagree, BM is not a one week event it's a philosophy, these "turists" have maybe learnt so much about themselves in the desert


its tourist.

add PS-106 - spelling

to the above list.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby yagotetra » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:41 am

@eb502
These Tourists are more likely to apply the BM philosophy in their day to day life from now on, as for vicinity I disagree with you, ask the spanking camp on ...7'30 and A they seemed to like it.
MOOP there is a reason for it and I am not here to argue woth you, we'll do better but I'm afraid it's systemic
Finally for my spelling, I type on a blackberry from a hospital bed since I don't have wifi connection in my room so be more understanding...

L

PS "la bave du crapaud n'atteint pas la blanche colombe"
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Dr Jet Sinister » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:56 am

yagotetra wrote:Dear DrJet

Have you visited Playaskool last year?
No

Do you know what fraction of the occupants "where tourists"?
No

Hahahaha Really? How do you know I didn't visit? Jon La Grace posted about all the people that came to hear the speakers, did you check the guest list and see my name wasn't on it? You know nothing about me personally, nor do I know anything about you, which is why I phrased my question as a question and left the answer to you.
yagotetra wrote:Are you a moderator in this forum?
No

Are you entitled to tell me what I have the right to write or not?
No

Do you have any sense of humor?
I don't think so

Completely irrelevant to the ongoing discussion.

yagotetra wrote:Do I want to fuck Zoe?
Who doesn't? But what's your point there? Are you so limited intellectually to believe that when a man agrees with a woman he wants to fuck her...

So clueless. My question to you (not the assumptions you've presented here about me) is why you felt the need to comment on Zoe's appearance to you. Agreeing with her points is perfectly acceptable. Telling us what a badass she is is also acceptable. Trying to win the favor of the message board by expressing your opinion of her appearance lessens any praise you previously doled out to her. I may disagree with her but it has nothing to do with her hotness or not. :roll:
yagotetra wrote:So I'll rephrase for you:
It is impossible to know in advance how people will behave on the playa and whether they will participate or just enjoy. If people want to enjoy it as turists and are ready to fly in I don't care and nor should you. Every playaskooler knew at least 10 other people of the camp prior to the event including the so-called turists.
When a friend decides to go to burning man based on the beautiful pictures I take he does not necessarily know how tough it can get and since I learnt from my mistakes I help him.
I book our RV and select the itinerary, I put electrolytes in his cart at walmart, I don't let him take only fresh products cause they will go bad... In a few word I assist him. Playaskool did the same on a larger scale for a few people that were not the majority of the camp and did in the end bring a lot to the community.
My first year I was a turist because I knew nothing and now I try to help people be self-reliant.
According to you whe should all learn the hard way? I disagree, BM is not a one week event it's a philosophy, these "turists" have maybe learnt so much about themselves in the desert that I'm sure they are more inclusive and self reliant now and that's what matters most.

Did I mention Zoe was really ridiculously ridiculoulsy goodlooking?

L

Have you tried to look at this discussion by taking playaskool, and perhaps your defensiveness of it, out of the equation? Playaskool, in particular, isn't the ONLY valet camp we're talking about. The three of you that have come here to defend your camp seem awfully concerned that we're just talking about you. Here's a tip, we aren't just talking about YOU. We are talking about the event being diluted in a negative way (or not) by people setting up a business (or not) by bringing tourists that have no vested interest in their camp or the event. It's the same argument against Yahoos or Weekenders that we've been discussing on this forum since it began. We push back against these stereotypes because they do not help to maintain the culture of our temporary community. It's highly naïve to assume that a tourist is suddenly more inclusive and self reliant. Why would they be? I've visited many cities as a tourist, it doesn't automatically make me absorb their culture and care about the people in the community. If I visited that city in the wake of a disaster and helped rebuild it THEN I would have a vested interest in the community. When neighbors don't have a vested interest in the community awful things happen like people tagging or destroying artwork, leaving bio-waste in other people's camps, not respecting personal boundaries, and a myriad of other non-burner things.

So you were a tourist your first year? How are you defining 'tourist' here? This thread is about defining these terms so perhaps we're not speaking the same language.
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