dry ice

Swamp Coolers, Cooler Management, Dry Ice, Misting Systems, and just plain how to beat the heat.

Postby Igneouss » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:33 pm

Dry ice method: Apologies if other already said this but I didn't read every word above...

This is how river guides do it:
1- freeze everything in advance.
2- Get two coolers.
3- Fill plasic bottles (pop bottles are great) 3/4 full with water. Pre freeze also.

first cooler is deep freez with dry ice and everything pre frozen that you do not need that day. Second cooler is for thawing things from the deep freeze and keeping things cold.

In the morning take the days food and 1/2 of your frozen pop bottles and put them in the regular cooler (along with the beer etc.).

Next morning take out the next days food and swap the water bottles.

Open the deep freeze only once a day and keep it as heavily insulated as you can.

Do the frozen water bottle swap once a day when you get out new stuff to thaw.

You get the pattern.

This will work for a week if you are careful.

Keep in mind that anything in with the dry ice will be frozen to extremely cold temps and take time to thaw. For example, if you took out ice creame it would be the consistancy of granite until it warmed up to near freezing. So you have got to plan ahead unless you have a saw handy :)

ps: if you need ice for the bar you can store it in the deep freeze until bar-time. It will last for days until you take it out.
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Postby Elliot » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:42 pm

:D
This matches many other people's experience. No need to apologize for for confirming what works!
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Postby gyre » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:42 pm

Bear in mind that while pre-cooling and pre-freezing is a good idea, it is not practical for many people coming from many days away.
It is not worth carrying all that extra weight the fuil distance, even if it helps.
Often space is an issue too.
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Postby penguin » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:55 pm

gyre wrote:Bear in mind that while pre-cooling and pre-freezing is a good idea, it is not practical for many people coming from many days away.


That's what I was wondering -- since our trip will be 1-2 days to get there -- would it make more sense to pack up everything here with a day or two worth of dry ice, then replenish the dry ice in Reno -- or just bring nothing cold and shop and freeze in Reno?
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Postby Elderberry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:10 pm

penguin wrote:
gyre wrote:Bear in mind that while pre-cooling and pre-freezing is a good idea, it is not practical for many people coming from many days away.


That's what I was wondering -- since our trip will be 1-2 days to get there -- would it make more sense to pack up everything here with a day or two worth of dry ice, then replenish the dry ice in Reno -- or just bring nothing cold and shop and freeze in Reno?


We drive in from L.A. which is a full day's ride. Then we usually stay at a hotel in Reno to rest and then head to the playa in the morning.

We freeze and pack everything we can before we leave and then replenish ice in Reno. We also usually get to the playa early--several days before they start selling ice; so we want to make sure things are as cold as possible.

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Postby gyre » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:44 pm

LA isn't that long a trip.
It's nice to carry everything, but liquids are a lot of weight for the entire trip, especially in a small car.
I wouldn't preload a cooler unless it was stuff you can't pick up in reno, if it's over a thousand miles away from gerlach.
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Postby gyre » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:46 pm

penguin wrote:
gyre wrote:Bear in mind that while pre-cooling and pre-freezing is a good idea, it is not practical for many people coming from many days away.


That's what I was wondering -- since our trip will be 1-2 days to get there -- would it make more sense to pack up everything here with a day or two worth of dry ice, then replenish the dry ice in Reno -- or just bring nothing cold and shop and freeze in Reno?

Dry ice would keep the weight down until you get to reno.

For short trips, I always freeze 2 litre bottles for the ice.
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Postby a sea of dirac » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:12 pm

eff the dry ice i am looking into getting some liquid nitrogen to keep things cold, i figure to make an apparatus that is something akin to an ice cube tray and get a two coolers, one with ice(recdycle the water into ice with a dash of liquid nitrogen) and the other a freezer and instead of using the valve at the bottom for draining stuff hook up a hose to it so every so often i can just put a dash of liquid nitrogen in there to keep the tempature down.......
http://www.praxair.com
here is the site i found, local vendors, etc. etc. etc...
and considering carbondioxide(which dry ice is made up of) is a green house gas and nitrogen is not, i think this is for the win..
ill keep posted with some chemistry stuff and volumes necessary, i am calling my local distributor tomorrow(tuesday) about the whole deal to see how much a tank costs, also gonna see if any of my college professors can hook up any or let me borrow a tank if ibring it back full.......
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Postby RedheadBarbie » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:31 pm

I didn't ike the results from dry ice. Anything more than 2 inches from it didn't cool at all. I'm going back to regular ice and industrial plastic liners to keep the food out of the water. Unless I was missing some ancient Chinese dry ice secret.....
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Postby Elderberry » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:34 pm

you must have been. dry ice keeps things so cold in our coolers that it seemed like it would shatter if you took it out and dropped it! Even the regular ice that we put in with the dry ice was colder than I have ever seen ice. Maybe you didn't use enough?

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Postby a sea of dirac » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:48 pm

liquid nitrogen update.
called/contacted praxair about it
it is 60$ for 10 litres
they sell a 10 litre tank subsequently,
the tank is not rentable and if bought from them is 400 $ non refundable, the problem with their tanks is that they are made so the nitrogen can evaporate, the rate of evaporation at room temp(70 degrees) is 1.6 litres every 24 hours. this makes a 10 litre tank impractical for a 7+ day excursion.
i am looking into sealed tanks or pressureized tanks to prevent the evaporation. either that or larger tanks. will keep updated as info comes in....
any leads on where to get the necessary tanks for this would be greatly appreciated......
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Postby gyre » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:11 pm

Use liquid helium to keep the nitrogen cool and it won't vent.
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Postby penguin » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:25 pm

a sea of dirac wrote:any leads on where to get the necessary tanks for this would be greatly appreciated......


Not sure what size(s) of tanks they supply, nor whether they are pressurized or self-venting, but...

Airgas does nitrogen in a number of different configurations, and they have a branch there in Phoenix (as well as having a branch in Sparks).

(oh and they do have liquid helium -- I wonder would liquid helium make a balloon float underwater) :wink:
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Postby gyre » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:52 pm

You could use liquid hydrogen too.
I don't know what that does to your food, but I wouldn't use a liquid oxygen tank in the same tent.
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Postby a sea of dirac » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:15 pm

penguin wrote:
a sea of dirac wrote:any leads on where to get the necessary tanks for this would be greatly appreciated......


Not sure what size(s) of tanks they supply, nor whether they are pressurized or self-venting, but...

Airgas does nitrogen in a number of different configurations, and they have a branch there in Phoenix (as well as having a branch in Sparks).

(oh and they do have liquid helium -- I wonder would liquid helium make a balloon float underwater) :wink:

thank you for the lead, i will google it tomorrow after class.
i am def looking for a perssurized tank because something that is self venting would be worthless in the environment that the playa has been described to me as........

hmmm... ill sit down and do the math to find out if a liquid helium baloon would float underwater, i know the instant the balloon would touch the water it would burst from the instant pressure difference due to the thermal exchange between the water and the helium, but, imagining a baloon made of say some exotic matereal that was ductile and insulant against the tempature of the water and applying the fact that one mole of any gas at standard conditions(0 degrees, 1 atmosphere) is 22.4 litres and the molar mass of helium is 4.00260 grams, it's density as a gas is .1786 g/l(at std cond.). now helium's melting point is at -272.20 degrees celcius, so changing the molar volume to the conditions perscribed to make it a liquid requires the application of charles law, (v1/t1= v2/t2) and also converting out tempature scale to kelvin(-273 degrees celcius) we get the formula 22.4l/273k= x/.80, where as x is the volume of the heluim at its melting point. x = .10025. applying this to litres it is .10025 litres per mole at melting point .80k(or -272.2 c)
now applying all this to our denstiy formula; mass/volume = density, gives us 4.00260g/.10025L(mass remains constant, let us remeber...), which is really approx. 39.92 grams per litre, the density of water is one kilogram (or 1000 grams) per litre at 4c (4 degrees celcius). for something to float it has to have a lessor density than the medium it is in. a liquid helium balloon in the afformentioned conditions would float in water. i would like to thank the audience and my lovely assistant.....
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Postby a sea of dirac » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:37 am

gyre wrote:You could use liquid hydrogen too.
I don't know what that does to your food, but I wouldn't use a liquid oxygen tank in the same tent.

liquid hydrogen evaporating into the atmosphere can combust even with out a pure source of oxygen present, all you need is a catalyst like a flame or cinder to start the exothermic reaction(explosion) that hydrogen and oxygen combining creates. remeber the hindenburg.....

nitrogen initself is already used in food processing and packaging to prolong shelf life so i would figure it safe enough to keep around, provided it does not spill on to any one. i myself will primaraly be handiling this stuff with extreme caution.

tomorrow i am going to find my local chemistry teacher and ask some questions upon the necessities of handiling this stuff safely and properly. i dont want to end up like the t1000 in terminator 2 all frozen and stiff....
well may be stiff aint too bad but not in the sense i am talking about... jsut sexually.....
blah blah blah
will keep posted on further developments as i gain more kn :!: wledge....
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Postby gyre » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:13 am

Hence urging caution.
It does burn very clean, especially with an oxygen source.
Seems very lively up close.

You may remember this use of liquid hydrogen, in the second and third stages.
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Postby a sea of dirac » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:16 am

gyre wrote:Image



totally off topic but the picture invoked a thought: wtf happened to the idealists in america(and the world) who were objectivists and positive that believed in doing good with our tax dollars instead of blowing it on wars and cadillacs?
i cant wait to get the fuck off this planet......
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Postby ygmir » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:32 am

I was told you can't really keep liquid nitrogen in a "sealed tank", for storage, it needs to be re-compressed and condensed.....that's what the guy at Airgas welding told me.......that the storage tanks, if static, have to vent.......I guess it's a pressure thing......

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Postby Sail Man » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:02 pm

I'm not gonna worry about dry ice. I'm gonna get all my food and beverages delivered to me on the playa daily, fresh, and nicely chilled.

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Postby HeironymousJosch » Wed May 13, 2009 4:00 pm

Menehune wrote:Check this place out....

http://www.dryiceinfo.com/


I love that the manufacturers of dry ice have a section describing how to make "dry ice firecrackers" on their information site! My brother and I may, or may not, have destroyed a mailbox or two in this manner as pre-teens.

"Small pieces of Dry Ice placed in an empty one liter plastic soda bottle and then filled ¼ to ½ with hot water may explode 2 to 120 seconds after the top is tightly screwed on...Wear gloves and eye protection because the resulting explosion may dangerously push out pieces of the plastic bottle or the bottle top....Sometimes these dry ice bombs are called "terrorist devices" and people using them are arrested....The logical defense explains there is no chemical reaction - only a change in the state of matter - from a solid to a gas. Unfortunately there may be a high cost in lawyers fees to persuade a DA or judge of this fact."
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue May 19, 2009 1:05 pm

"2 to 120 seconds"
Dang. That's quite a window, cowboy. Stand behind the blast shield.

Nitrogen, hydrogen, helium, why not just get a compressor and a 10,000 gallon tank of diesel while you're at it?
We'll be getting a pair of Coleman Extremes and putting dry ice in one.
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Postby CapSmashy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:17 am

I shall reinvent the mousetrap. A noble and grand experiment into cooler dynamics.

Question: Will an old school Coleman 120 Marine cooler lined and subdivided into 3 individual, interior coolers be suited for long term frozen storage for a new foray onto the desert landscape?

Prior results and data: Based on available data contained herein, we think we have developed a suitable plan of action to make such goals a reality.

Hypothesis: By further insulating the existing cooler and then subdividing the cooler into 3 separate interior cooler spaces utilize rigid insulating material, our experiment should yield a compartmentalized frozen storage unit suitable for a week's worth of use.

Preparation: The lid, interior walls and floor of the existing cooler shall have a layer of half inch, high density insulating foam with an attached radiant heat barrier installed. Sealed compartments made from the same material shall be constructed and placed into the cooler.

Experiment: Each compartment shall receive 4 to 6 one gallon ziplock bags that have been filled with water and frozen to simulate food mass. On top of the frozen bags shall be placed a quantity of 10 to 12 pounds of dry ice in block form. The dry ice shall be wrapped in newspaper and sealed with masking tape.

Once each compartment has been loaded and sealed, the cooler lid shall be closed and sealed with a layer of tape. The cooler shall be placed upon a pedestal on the back patio area to separate it from the ground and the cooler shall be wrapped lovingly into the folds of a flexible, insulating material.

Phase 1: The cooler shall be left sitting, ignored and alone, for a period of 4 calender days before the first compartment is opened. If the contents are still frozen, the cooler shall be praised for its ability to hold cool inside despite adversity and antiquation and rejoicing will be had in the form of dancing raccoons on tables and fizzy lifting drinks.

The frozen ziplocks shall be removed from the first compartment and shall be placed into "Camp Cooler #1" and become the subject for the ongoing, simultaneous camp cooler experiment that is detailed elsewhere.

If phase one has revealed failure and the contents of the compartments did not maintain their frozen state integrity, the raccoons shall be slaughtered and the fizzy lifting drinks shall be poured upon the ground to appease the cooler gods and to the drawing board we shall return.

Phase 1A: 4, 1 gallon capacity ziplock bags of water filled 3/4 to capacity to simulate ice melt captured in ziplock bags shall be placed back into the first compartment and the compartment shall be resealed. The cooler lid shall then be closed and resealed and the insulating wrap shall be reapplied.

Phase 2: Over the course of the next two days, the cooler and contents shall be offered encouraging words and cold thoughts of frigid, arctic landscapes.

Compartment two shall be opened first. If the contents are still frozen, music from Scandinavian Death Metal band Wheezing Octopus shall be played at amplified volumes approaching ear drum shattering levels and fortified fizzy lifting drinks shall be applied to the dancing raccoons so that they may gyrate at the the ends of tethers.

The frozen ziplocks shall be removed from the second compartment and shall be placed into "Camp Cooler #2" and become the subject for the ongoing, simultaneous camp cooler experiment that is detailed elsewhere.

If compartment 2 shall reveal failure, the lead scientist shall wander the lab with a gas recoil operated, Smith and Wesson M&P 15 semi automatic rifle and punish the lab rats for their failures. The raccoons shall be slaughtered and the fortified fizzy lifting drinks shall be poured upon the ground to appease the cooler gods and to the drawing board we shall return.

Phase 2A: In the event of a successful Phase 2 of the experiment, compartment one shall be opened to ascertain the state of the matter of the contents within. If frozen, the bags shall be placed within "Camp Cooler #1" for the ongoing simultaneous camp cooler experiment.

Compartments one and two shall be reloaded with more quantities of water filled 1 gallon ziplock bags and resealed. The cooler lid shall then be closed and resealed and the insulating wrap shall be reapplied.

Phase 3: Encouragement efforts shall be intensified for this final phase of the experiment. Personal time at the event shall be sacrificed so that at least 15 minutes of every 3 hours of the day can be spent in quiet meditative contemplation of the cooler and it's contents. A mental bond shall be created between the observer and the cooler to amplify the cooling retention capacity of the cooler for a period of 2 days.

At sunrise of the eighth day of the experiment run, compartment three shall be opened. If the observable data indicates success, there shall be much rejoicing and the people shall feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats marinated in fortified fizzy lifting drinks.

If there is failure revealed at phase 3, we probably need a larger block of dry ice for the compartment. Lab monkeys shall be spanked for not suggesting this sooner.

Phase 3A: Compartments one and two shall be opened and their contents checked for state of matter. If frozen, the bags shall again be incorporated into the "camp cooler experiment" cycle. If Phase 3 is a success and there is still dry ice remaining in each individual compartment, the above cycle shall be repeated by placing 1 gallon ziplock bags of water into the compartments. If necessary, researchers shall condense the remaining dry ice into one or two individual compartments.

The compartments shall be resealed. The cooler lid shall then be closed and resealed and the insulating wrap shall be reapplied.

Phase 4: A policy of antagonization shall be employed for this final phase. The cooler shall be taunted that it no longer has the capacity to freeze the contents within thereby establishing a role of reverse psychology that encourages the cooler to prove to us that it can, in fact freeze the contents within.

Cooler contents shall be checked in 2 days. Results of this final phase are not as critical as the previous 3 phases. If success is discovered, the cooler shall be rewarded with praise and adoration. If failure is discovered, the cooler shall be awarded a participation medal for effort in this final phase and receive praise and adoration for the previous three phases.


Experiment shall commence soonish.
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Postby camp-photon » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:17 am

Last year we had two identical coolers with 10 lb blocks of dry ice in them.

One block was in plastic and the other was wrapped in 3/8" insulating packing foam with a silver mylar side. The foam was then wrapped tightly with duct tape.

The wrapped dry ice was placed on top of the cooler's contents and the unwrapped piece was placed at the bottom of the cooler.
Both coolers contained bags of water ice.

We then used more of the packing material to cover the coolers. as much was possible.

[b]The wrapped dry ice outlasted the untreated piece by several days.[/b]
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:05 pm

How do you pre-freeze a case of bottled water if your freezer is full of crap?
Answer: Eat the crap now.
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Postby Oldguy » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:58 pm

Thank you UG. That is very timely advice. I leave in fifty days.Time enough to defrost and consume my small freezers contents, and then freeze my water bottles.
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Postby EvenflO » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:16 am

I love the 2-cooler, rotating bottles of water system. If I were to do that, does it matter what type of cooler I use?
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Postby gyre » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:40 am

I don't remember what that involves.
But better coolers always have insulated lids.
Look for smoother, harder liners.
Easier to clean.
And thicker insulation, of course.
Some are more rugged than others.
Igloo has the marine line which is white and uv resistant.
My igloos have dividers that go into slots on the liner.

Professional fishing coolers are the best and very tough.
More expensive too.

Le Chat has used urethane foam molded around a cooler in a box to improve insulation.
He reports good results.
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Postby Homiesinheaven » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:30 pm

is $1 a pound too much to pay for dry ice? that's what my local gas joint sells it for...
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Postby geospyder » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:09 pm

I checked at one of the local dry ice places here in Reno today. Dry ice is 99 cents per pound (plus tax). A typical "block" of dry ice is 10X10X2 inches and weighs approximately 10 pounds. Based on what I've read it is recommended to use one block for each 15 inches of length of your ice chest. Wrap in newspaper, place on bottom of chest and place regular ice on top.
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