Generator Security

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Postby mdmf007 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:29 am

Gyre -

If you have any concrete available you can bolt it to the concrete with concrete anchors, then weld the nuts in place - grinding the welds off to remove the genny when done.

would be cheaper than the chain you speak of at 7-10 bucks a foot.
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Postby gyre » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:47 am

Concrete and whatnot costs something too and I was going to need most of the chain with an anchor too.
And the anchor wouldn't be portable.
I can use the chain the next time I need some.
My friend pointed out that one long piece is often more useful than one that's a bit too short and needs to be spliced, so he suggested at least 15 feet.
I was going to need 10 to 12 feet anyway.

We also figured out how to make rigid chain extensions, far cheaper than chain.
I could have used that to keep the chain 8 feet shorter.

Instead of wrapping around the frame, I am going straight through it to the eyebolt through the foundation near the steps and to the opening in the foundation 8 feet from the steps.
Inside the foundation, the Abus chain will be locked to a bar or plate to pull against the foundation.
It will also be attached to a lower grade chain wrapped around a foundation pier.
I'm thinking no one will go under the house to cut that one.
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Postby gyre » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:02 am

mdmf007 wrote:Gyre -

If you have any concrete available you can bolt it to the concrete with concrete anchors, then weld the nuts in place - grinding the welds off to remove the genny when done.

would be cheaper than the chain you speak of at 7-10 bucks a foot.

There is no concrete in the area now.
The generator has to be movable when the person loaning it to me needs it.
And I want it on the steps where it has shelter from the weather.

How nice is someone that loans you their brand new generator?

I'm spending well over half the cost of the thing to secure it, but the only alternative I see is wishful thinking.


My attorney is still waiting for my complete file from the utility company, the same file I waited weeks for and didn't get in complete form.
It may be some time before I get a hearing.

If anyone wants to sell an EU after burning man or has something I can still afford when I get there, let me know.
I may still be off the grid when I get home.
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Postby gyre » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:22 am

My samples of the Abus chain came in and it is lovely stuff.
We haven't had a chance to test it, as much of the city lost power in a big storm yesterday.
I wasn't affected though.

It is indeed square shaped with rounded corners.
It has a golden zinc chromate finish, polished and very pleasing to handle.
The links are longer than standard chain and can be locked to, at any point in the chain.
The 12 mm links are long enough that you can insert one link at the end through another end link and lock the chain that way.
Sizes are measured across the flats and are metric, so my half inch chain is actually 12mm, just under a half inch.

If anyone needs chain and/or locks of this quality for burning man, and can't find it locally, let me know and I'll order it at cost for you, no markup.
In fact, if a group wants at least 6 of the cheap python cable locks, I'll order those for you.
Be aware that the smaller cables can be cut by boltcutters.
I use them on the playa for cheap bikes.
Use a U-lock or chain for anything better.


As always, I prefer email to pms.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:23 pm

gyre wrote:As always, I prefer email to pms.


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Postby Mekishiko » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:33 am

SilverOrange wrote:Gyre, I wish I could remember where I got that chain from, but it was a few years ago. I remember that I had to order it by length because they didn't want to cut it for me. It required cutting with a torch or grinder. I know I couldn't find it at the big box stores, and maybe that's why. Unfortunatly there's a lot of variables in heat treating like what the base metal and carbon content is and the method of heat treating. I'm no metallurgist but I believe case hardening could be a different process than heat treating is.


This link might be the type of chain you used. I have used this type of hardened multi-sided link chain before and was unable to cut it with many different sizes of bolt cutters.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-60-HEAVY-DUTY-NY-KRYPTONITE-SECURITY-CHAIN_W0QQitemZ280356522749QQihZ018QQcategoryZ42320QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Postby gyre » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:43 am

That looks like the Abus.
If it's the same quality and not a copy, that's a very good price.

Ebay is notorious for knockoffs, of course.
I think the Master chain is hexagonal.
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Postby gyre » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:54 am

Image
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Postby gyre » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:08 pm

We took a crack at the Abus chain.
We decided to go after the 6 mm (1/4") first.
Using 24" HK Porter boltcutters, usa jaws- unknown type, we scratched the surface and dented the jaws.
Using an exotic die steel chisel, the plating was scratched, but the steel was undamaged.
Using a file and other abrasives had similar effect.

He finally cut through it with a torch.
Clamping it in a vise, he hammered sideways on the open end and put stress on the stress risers at the point where the link is curved, and finally snapped it at that point.
And that was only 6 mm chain.
I've used larger decorative stuff.

He feels the 6 mm is perhaps good enough to resist 24" cutters and certainly good enough for 14" cutters.
He thinks the 8mm and 10mm (3/8") will easily withstand 24" cutters.

His estimate is that the hardness is 50 to 60 Rockwell or better.


If you use any of this chain, the 12 mm is a much better deal.
The only reason to not use it is if weight is an issue or it won't fit where you need it, due to size.

Sleeves are available for custom cut lengths too.
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Postby mdmf007 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Image

You will never cut this chain with bolt cutters, you will mash the cutters of the cutter first.

Achilles heel is the lock. I have cut so many of these of with bolt cutters its ridiculous. While the rotary locks are tough as hell to defeat. If you pinch them with the bolt cutters at the red points you can break the lock easier than cutting the chain.
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Postby gyre » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:42 pm

Have you cut one of the german disc locks before?
The 26/90 has a 12mm shackle and is seam welded.
The 20/80 has an 11mm shackle and uses disc type cylinders.

The one they recommend is the 37/80 though.
And at a lower price, the chain locks.
I'll be using the Master shrouded locks for now.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Abus has a whole range of padlocks though.
I'm a little unsure of some of the differences.
And they have hexagonal chain on some bike locks, rather than square.
I doubt there is a large difference.
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Postby mdmf007 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:02 pm

The locks like I pointed out and in your picture post are easily defeated with bolt cutters. The cutters dont cut the lock - they simply mangle the shit out of it until the bolt is out of the frame entirely.
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Postby wedeliver » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:42 pm

mdmf007 wrote:The locks like I pointed out and in your picture post are easily defeated with bolt cutters. The cutters dont cut the lock - they simply mangle the shit out of it until the bolt is out of the frame entirely.


Could you also defeat the locks by pounding on them with a big sledge hammer? Seems like I could make more pressure with a 10lb sledge then 24" bolt cutters.

is there a lock case that is seamless?

Is there any lock that you think is unbreakable.

There was a lock company, can't recall the name, that makes a kind of motorcycle lock with the round key hole. The lock could be opened with the plastic top off a bic pen. (maybe kryptonite)

(I once was unable to put a dent in a lock on a gate with a 45 cal bullet, good lock, I think military)(I ended up defeating the purpose of the lock by removing the gate at the hindges and driving over it)

You could also put one of those alarms on the genny, any movement would make the alarm go off.

only 10 bucks.. but there are lots of options other then the following

http://www.travelwares.com/Travel_Door_ ... 81025f.htm

We have a couple of these on our property at gates.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... =100396309
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Postby mdmf007 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:47 pm

Of course you know all locks do is keep honest people honest. If some asshat wants it bad enough they will just steal a torch or cut off saw and go at it with that.

Bolt cutters are good at mangling locks to defeat them. The burlier the case the better.

we used to use cryogenics to freeze a lock then a swift nad sharp blow cn crack them easily as well.

That can of dust off for your computer - turn it over and spray it. Pretty cool huh? Thats a hundred below zero at least. metals behave much differently at that temperature.
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Postby gyre » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:34 am

All hard security can be defeated eventually.
All products are rated in the time it takes to disable them.
It ranges from seconds for the club to minutes, hours or days for bank safes.
The goal is to make it not worth the trouble.

My goal in this case is to require a cutting torch or destruction of the generator to take it.
That leaves easier targets everywhere else.
It eliminates most of the most brazen thieves too, as they can't hang on to tools.
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Postby gyre » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:01 pm

It occurs to me that generators are a bigger target than normal right now, as we have 140,000 people without power and the storms continue.
This would be a great time for my neighborhood to lose power, so it hasn't even glitched here.
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Postby wedeliver » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:08 pm

did you think of sticking something like a dog kennel chain link fence around the genny. If it is accessable, the carborator can be stolen, the gas can be siphoned. they could steal the spark plug. OMG we are not safe... (whats going on with the power company? was the meter running fast or something?)

did ja read about those alarms... I use the reporter here and it is really reliable and notifies me when we have visitors.
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Postby gyre » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:49 am

The fencing in the area is pretty inadequate now.
I did think about a cage, but on the steps, it would be difficult.

As long as I am home, the generator acts as an alarm if it is unplugged.
If I am not at home, I don't think anyone would respond fast enough to help.

Storms have taken out power lines all over the city.
We haven't attached the I-beam because my friend's shop still has no 3-phase power.

In my case, the utility company wants me to pay $1300 for an old paid off bill.
They claim they "forgot" to charge me for over a year for electricity.
As is standard practice with them, they accused me of stealing the electricity.
During the same period, they reviewed the account and meter and declared everything to be fine.
They also tried to withdraw (steal) the money from an account they no longer had access to and then claimed I wrote them bad checks.
This is not the first time I have had problems with them.
They have stalled and lied to me for months as I have tried to resolve this.
Without an attorney, you have no chance with them.
Legal Services is going to use me as a test case to see if they have changed their hearings to provide due process.
Always a joke in the past.

There were recent scandals and they claimed they became more reasonable.
The attorneys say they are getting worse.

They assert the "right" to "adjust" bills 3 years after they make a mistake.
And they do this by cutting off power and demanding full payment.
Then they want a huge deposit for your ruined credit.

They were caught letting politicians owe tens of thousands without paying, while cutting off people over minor amounts.
It is routine for them to lie and falsify their records, even over minor things.
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Postby mdmf007 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:55 am

gyre wrote:The fencing in the area is pretty inadequate now.
I did think about a cage, but on the steps, it would be difficult.

As long as I am home, the generator acts as an alarm if it is unplugged.
If I am not at home, I don't think anyone would respond fast enough to help.

Storms have taken out power lines all over the city.
We haven't attached the I-beam because my friend's shop still has no 3-phase power.

In my case, the utility company wants me to pay $1300 for an old paid off bill.
They claim they "forgot" to charge me for over a year for electricity.
As is standard practice with them, they accused me of stealing the electricity.
During the same period, they reviewed the account and meter and declared everything to be fine.
They also tried to withdraw (steal) the money from an account they no longer had access to and then claimed I wrote them bad checks.
This is not the first time I have had problems with them.
They have stalled and lied to me for months as I have tried to resolve this.
Without an attorney, you have no chance with them.
Legal Services is going to use me as a test case to see if they have changed their hearings to provide due process.
Always a joke in the past.

There were recent scandals and they claimed they became more reasonable.
The attorneys say they are getting worse.

They assert the "right" to "adjust" bills 3 years after they make a mistake.
And they do this by cutting off power and demanding full payment.
Then they want a huge deposit for your ruined credit.

They were caught letting politicians owe tens of thousands without paying, while cutting off people over minor amounts.
It is routine for them to lie and falsify their records, even over minor things.


Call the AG and explain your situation clearly, or tell them you have a child in the house. More states than not cannot shut off power if theres a child in danger or elderly.
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Postby gyre » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:05 am

If there are such laws, they are not enforced.
The city council has been unwilling to control them.

Most people do not want to accept that cities can do what they want.

Recourse takes years and usually a lot of money.

A lawsuit over a kid killed who had a toy gun, only ended after ten years due to political action.

Only life support gets a reaction from MLGW.
Yet they still cut off a street with someone on it in a friend's neighborhood.
The child's father had some difficulty getting their attention even though he is on a list that cannot be cut off.
The fire department has been providing generators for people like that.
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Postby gyre » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:19 am

wedeliver wrote:did you think of sticking something like a dog kennel chain link fence around the genny. If it is accessable, the carborator can be stolen, the gas can be siphoned. they could steal the spark plug. OMG we are not safe... (whats going on with the power company? was the meter running fast or something?)

did ja read about those alarms... I use the reporter here and it is really reliable and notifies me when we have visitors.

We don't all live 500 miles from the city.
We just got rid of the crack house that was 12 feet from the back yard.
Our crime is the highest in the country.
I go to Oakland for relief from crime.


There is NO info at all on the site about how the reporter works.
Any idea?
How has your range and stability been?

I am a big believer in perimeter alarms.
I use an infra-red unit with dual sensors to screen reflections, etc.
This keeps it stable in hot and cold weather.
It has 60 feet of range wide and 110 feet in a narrow pattern.
Most important, the lenses can be replaced cheaply.
Almost all infrared lenses fail rapidly.
Always check on costs and availability.
Since I'm renting here, I haven't installed those here.

That type of detector may be obsolete now with camera systems advancing rapidly.

The best vehicle detector senses steel and can be totally hidden.
It will only react to vehicles.

Boltcutters concentrate force in a small area.
If I can get some sample locks, I will let mdm work on them.
Some locks are quite respectable though.
I had a one piece american brand lock hammered on heavily.
The lock is actually deformed, but has no stress failures.
The best Abus disc lock retails for $63 and the top of the line Granit is $174.
You should expect a little better metal and design in that range.
There is an 83/80 with a 5/8" shackle, fairly substantial.
And then there are the higher end locks.
Another approach is to use remote locking such as the soundkey system.
http://www.mobilestorage.com/portable-s ... ations.htm

Mdm, what do you think about the hockey puck locks, generally?
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Postby gyre » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:38 pm

With so many houses off the grid, the hot thing now is burglaries of houses without power.
It's very hot here so many people are going elsewhere.


MDM, are you talking about manual boltcutters?
Those hydraulic hotrods will cut anything or break trying.

Some specs- The Granit series has a 65 Rockwell body and shackle.
I'm told that's hard.
The large one is rated at 25,000 pounds tensile strength.
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Postby gyre » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:12 am

The generator now weighs +300 pounds.
We mounted it on a 3 foot by 2 foot I-beam with two 1" bars through the beam and through the frame of the generator.
Dave welded heads on the rods, like big nails.
The ends were drilled and chamfered for the shrouded master locks.

It looks like it weighs much more to me.
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Postby gyre » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Had the first utility hearing today.
We did pretty well.
They had to stop it to go and do more homework.
It may go to federal court yet.
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Postby gyre » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:20 pm

On the security issue, I am going to mount ground anchors for my bike.
Any clever versions from anyone?
Europe has many weird types, but none seem particularly suitable.

I want to pull the bike through and lock, and pull forward when unlocked.
Only suggestion is a type of camming wheel catch as used on trailers.
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Postby DiveDogFLL » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:46 pm

Bolt cutters are old school!

Today's modern thief uses a cordless 5.5" Circular 'skill' saw and a masonry wheel, and a wet sponge. not much can stop it...

try as best you can to slow them down... multiple chains.


GL!
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Postby gyre » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:18 pm

The Abus chain would be slow to cut, and noisy.
For other things, I use layering with wood, stainless, etc.
Screws up the wheels good.
Concrete board would probably work well too.

At this point, the plan is to use a hinged piece of bar stock, around 1"+ thick.
Probably stainless steel, but at least hardened.
I'm still open to better ideas for the design.

I'm using the american 2500 on my trailers now.
Bump stop and stainless pins, front keyed so it can be almost totally shrouded.
I may use that on the end of the bike locks.
Not a big shackle, but it can be shrouded.
Image
The wheels will cut anything eventually, but you can make the angles tricky and the whole job very tough.
Only a hot enough torch will do it quietly and quickly.
Big enough material heat sinks fast enough to slow that down too.

The abus chain is over 60 rockwell and would be very hard to cut with a wheel.
We cut a 6mm link and it was very, very tough.
Couldn't nick it with cutters or die steel chisels.

The 6mm would be stronger than the average cable and probably adequate on the playa for the cheap bikes.
And a real freaking shock if you try to cut it with normal cutters.
About $5 a foot for the small stuff.
Looks toylike, and it is light.
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